Tendulkar's batting exploits while chasing a big total in 2nd Inn

[Holysmoke]

Incorrect. I posted congratulatory note on the thread that was praising the team. Independent of that I was analyzing the bowling to #10 and #11 So, I did congratulate on the win, but had a separate thread to analyze the bowling. Whats wrong in that? We win, we should not look at "areas to improve", is it? Tell me, whats wrong with that? Again, I did congratulate the team on the series win. We are touring Aus after Pak, and Aus is a tougher opponent, so I wanted to know the negatives in the series which the team needs to tighten up. We cannot expect to play with Aus, the same way as with Pak and expect to win. Pak will make mistakes that Aus wont. Thats why. Again, tell me why is this wrong!?

Whats wrong with that is that it fks up the mood of the place, as Pred said. You think people pick on you, abuse you, etc because they are bored? No, its because you irritate them with all the negativity you bring.

[S.R.Tendulkar]

Hey fineleg, Listen mate, people love Tendulkar, commentators love Tendulkar, hell everyone loves Tendulkar except a few like you. It doesnt matter what you really say, he is not going to leave ODI's until he wants to, and I bet no BCCI or whoever is going to make him leave it. Otherwise if he was doing so bad..and he didnt deserve to be in the team, then why wouldn't he be out along with gangu and Dravid, because he is still a very good player chasing and batting first. Lets look up the averages/stats of other players in Indian team and compare them to Tendulkar and see what we come up with.

[Holysmoke]

Forget that. Finey said Tendulkar is declining, clearly not the tendulkar of old. OK fine. Explain to me how he was #2 in aggregate scores in 2007, even though we had a really bad/small world cup. This is the third time I've asked this same question to finey today.

[The Outsider]

fineleg, no disrespect to your cricketing knowledge, it is wanting in a lot of areas. You might say it's your opinion and you are free to express them but they are mostly ill formed ones. Guys like Ravi have not only watched cricket for decades, they still play and coach the game at a very high level. Guys like Salil are a walking encyclopedia on the history of the game. Guys like Dhondy, bumper, Predator, Gambit present some solid cricket analysis, fact based and otherwise. Sometes it's better to sit back and learn from guys like them instead of trying to impose your fleeting opinions on others. Personally, I have learned a lot from guys like them and others, and if on a certain topic almost all of them are saying you might be wrong, then chances are that you are. But yeah, what you are doing is also expressing your opinions, but opinions need to be judged on the basis of the person making them.

[fineleg]

Holy, I am talking abt chasing a big score here! In 2007, SRT was consistent in chasing big scores successfully?

[fineleg]

fineleg' date=' no disrespect to your cricketing knowledge, it is wanting in a lot of areas. You might say it's your opinion and you are free to express them but they are mostly ill formed ones. Guys like Ravi have not only watched cricket for decades, they still play and coach the game at a very high level. Guys like Salil are a walking encyclopedia on the history of the game. Guys like Dhondy, bumper, Predator, Gambit present some solid cricket analysis, fact based and otherwise. Sometes it's better to sit back and learn from guys like them instead of trying to impose your fleeting opinions on others. Personally, I have learned a lot from guys like them and others, and if on a certain topic almost all of them are saying you might be wrong, then chances are that you are. But yeah, what you are doing is also expressing your opinions, but opinions need to be judged on the basis of the person making them.[/quote'] I have always had good discussions with folks like Ravi. I've never disputed that Ravi's or Salil's or even Preds' cricketing knowledge is good - same for others u mentioned above. Its only when folks start using abusive language then it gets ugly (ravi has never done so). Shwetabh: In this thread (as an example), I complained abt Tendulkar's failings when he chases big scores especially in the recent years...is that complaint unfounded? Do you think current version of SRT is doing a good job chasing big scores? (specific qn to shwetabh on the topic of this thread) Ok, if pretty much all of you think that current SRT is delivering well on chasing big scores, then I'll leave it, fine - you can close this thread.

[Holysmoke]

Holy, I am talking abt chasing a big score here! In 2007, SRT was consistent in chasing big scores successfully?

how many times did we chase big scores? and what do the other big names average?

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh: In this thread (as an example), I complained abt Tendulkar's failings when he chases big scores especially in the recent years...is that complaint unfounded? Do you think current version of SRT is doing a good job chasing big scores? (specific qn to shwetabh on the topic of this thread)

You give me a large enough sample size of 400 ODIs and I bet I can drill a hole in every batsman's resume based on one fact or the other over a few of them. There was no shortage of people calling Tendulkar a finished force in tests till a few months back and look at the turnaround. Big scores, recent years, after 8 PM, you can choose to put as many filters to poke holes in a batsman. It does not change the fact that Tendulkar remains after close to two decades one of the premier batsmen in world cricket and you cannot drop/change his spot depending on the opposition you play against or the fact that you are chasing/setting a target. There is no precedence for it and it does not make any cricketing sense. And have you ever bothered to comment/start a thread on the flip side - if Tendulkar is averaging the same as he was earlier and off late has not been doing well lately chasing then the obvious corollary is that he is doing much better setting a target, isn't it? Why do I not see threads from you praising his increase in level of performance in the first innings? Shows either a bias against Tendulkar or God like expectations from him, while being the first one to blame others for worshiping him, doesn't it?

[fineleg]

^^ Shwetabh, Maybe it appears as bias to you (or other folks). Its not bias, since I dont have any grudges against SRT other than performance related. My expectations are probably lot higher than yours. I can agree to that. Whether they are super human, well we can debate that separately. I think, for his ability, he can definitely achieve it if he applies himself and focusses clearly on the task at hand. There is some carelessness or tense shot selections he does that gets him out early in the inn while chasing...some tentativeness these days. He used to be lot more decisive in his stroke play earlier. There is another reason why I dont create threads praising SRT specifically. There are gazillion threads here and almost every ICF-er praises him immensely. To me it is a bit over-the-top the SRT praise I see here in ICF, and has made me not add to it anymore than what is already being done here.

[The Outsider]

My expectations are probably lot higher than yours. I can agree to that. Whether they are super human, well we can debate that separately. I think, for his ability, he can achieve it if he applies himself and focusses clearly on the task at hand.

Which is exactly what I referred to earlier. Your expectations of Tendulkar are beyond human. You want him to score in the first innings, second innings, tenth innings, score match winning knocks every time he saunters in the middle, and if he gets some time deliver food to your place from his restaurant, so if someone is guilty here of treating Tendulkar like some super human it is you. He is only the best batsman of his generation. Holes can be drilled into resumes of the best batsman of any generation, and comparing across generations has it's own pitfalls.

There is another reason why I dont create threads praising SRT specifically. There are gazillion threads here and almost every ICF-er praises him immensely. To me it is a bit over-the-top the SRT praise I see here in ICF, and has made me not add to it anymore than what is already being done here.

So, even if you feel that Tendulkar's first innings performance has improved tremendously (extrapolating from your statement that his second innings performance has gone down a lot and the fact that his overall average remains the same) you won't start a thread on it because it won't create sensationalism on ICF and most people will agree? I am sorry, but that's just being a drama queen and even though you admitted to being one a long time back, it's not a badge of honor.

[fineleg]

Which is exactly what I referred to earlier. Your expectations of Tendulkar are beyond human. You want him to score in the first innings, second innings, tenth innings, score match winning knocks every time he saunters in the middle, and if he gets some time deliver food to your place from his restaurant, so if someone is guilty here of treating Tendulkar like some super human it is you. He is only the best batsman of his generation. Holes can be drilled into resumes of the best batsman of any generation, and comparing across generations has it's own pitfalls.

As I said, it is not superhuman. What I expect is not a century everytime he goes into the middle. What I want is just a little better than what he is doing today, and I feel with his ability he can actually achieve that. Achievable goal that, I think.

So, even if you feel that Tendulkar's first innings performance has improved tremendously (extrapolating from your statement that his second innings performance has gone down a lot and the fact that his overall average remains the same) you won't start a thread on it because it won't create sensationalism on ICF and most people will agree? I am sorry, but that's just being a drama queen and even though you admitted to being one a long time back, it's not a badge of honor.

No. Some of that above is trying to put words in my mouth and taking it out. Thats not what I said. I'm saying there are gazillions already creating threads, so I feel too much OTT praise is going on in ICF, and thats why I dont want to add onto it. Its way too sugary and idol worshipping already. Having said that, I do post within those threads created by others and have congratulated SRT when he has done well. So, I do post those Well-Played posts, just havent created the threads, since there are too many over-enthusiastic SRT hardcore fans here in ICF who jump ahead of everyone to create those.

[The Outsider]

What I want is just a little better than what he is doing today, and I feel with his ability he can actually achieve that. Achievable goal that, I think.

From the tone of your threads it certainly does not seem like you want a "little better". Those threads would be on the lines of slight disappointment in not doing this even though he is doing that exceptionally well kind of tones. Your threads are on the lines of "drop him", "move him down the order", "selfish" etc. etc.

No. Some of that above is trying to put words in my mouth and taking it out. Thats not what I said.

Ok, let's approach this very logically so that you don't think I am putting words in your mouth. 1. Your assertion - Tendulkar off late has not been scoring well in chases. 2. Fact - His overall average remains the same. 3. Corollary - He is doing much better setting targets. Fact - You start multiple threads about point 1. Fact - You start zero threads about point 3. Fact - There is no specific thread on ICF praising Tendulkar's improvement in game in first innings. Fact - There are threads on ICF pointing to Tendulkar's declining second innings game.

[fineleg]

^^ shwetabh, its nothing but my focus is more on what more contribution we can get for the team - every ounce that i want to squeeze out of the player to get that extra. If he exceeded expectations batting first, then great - I dont mind admitting thats great. if i overlooked that in favor of focussing on what improvement needs to happen, ok, i can admit to that overlooking it. But my focus is on what else needs improvement...thats where im constantly looking - i do that for other players too, not just for srt. but there is so much srt talk in icf, some concentrated focus is on him, and he is our main player as well, so lot more focus from myself too on that one player. but, definitely i do look to squeeze out the extra and improvements needed in other players too. I dont have any particular bias or grudge against SRT.

[The Outsider]

What do you mean by trying to squeeze more out of Tendulkar? It's not that Tendulkar reads this forum and even if he did, it's not that he would give a hoot about some nick, fineleg's enthusiasm of trying to squeeze more out of him. He is a cricket professional doing his job, this is a cricket fans' website, and we are cricket fans who should support the team players we like(no matter who) and analyze them objectively. Your analysis, is far from objective and there is no point hiding behind the excuse that it's not objective because other people's analysis is not objective on the other side of the spectrum. That's just a red herring.

[fineleg]

shwetabh, i think u dont understand what im trying to say here. u keep asking me how many threads do i have to praise srt? i gave u the reasons. how many threads have i created specifically to praise some other player? probably none or not many. i dont usually create player praise thread for GG or Rohit or ZK or whoever...do I do these and only discriminate SRT? Its just not my style to create player praise threads, until India as a team reach #1 position. i have posted in threads praising others gambhir, or rohit sharma, same way i have posted in threads praising srt if he did well. I think what ur missing is this - My focus and desire is to see india as the #1 team. Intermediate good results and milestones, i dont create threads usually. i post congratulatory notes in threads that numerous others create to celebrate. I appreciate intermediate success, but i dont Bappreciate, a B, and I move on to the bigger focus and desire of what else are the problems? what else do we need to do to improve and be #1...thats the focus of my cricket threads... Those imperfections and carelessness that any player (SRT or other) exhibits irks me since that is not how we can be #1 - and thats why my thread focus is on it.

[The Outsider]

I think what ur missing is this - My focus and desire is to see india as the #1 team. Intermediate good results and milestones, i dont create threads usually. i post congratulatory notes in threads that numerous others create to celebrate.

And what I am telling you is this - your desire and focus mean nothing to the players who are playing cricket in the middle. You can keep on giving your expert analysis on everything they do, it's not going to make a difference. So why not enjoy the game and it's players and teams based on their performance instead of needlessly concentrating on what you think they should do to improve. With all the money, cricketing skills and brains, coaches etc. available to Tendulkar, not to mention his proven ability of not being swayed by stardom, do you really think that a fineleg or a shwetabh can offer him any thing?

Those imperfections and carelessness that any player (SRT or other) exhibits irks me since that is not how we can be #1 - and thats why my thread focus is on it.

That is not true. Dravid has been fairing poorer than Tendulkar ever since you joined the board in both forms of the game. How many threads have you started with the intent of "improving" Dravid as you have tried to "improve" Tendulkar? Your only excuse is that Tendulkar gets so many praise threads so I have to neutralize them with bashing threads while Dravid does not get as many. For what it's worth, Dravid when he was in form used to get quite a lot of praise threads as well from basically the same set of people who irk you so much because they treat Tendulkar like God.

[fineleg]

1. As I said, in general, I spend more time on what players weaknesses are that need to be remedied to get to #1. If they did something well, I take it in stride - as expected of them at International level with this amount of fanfare and stardom. I do congratulate, but I move on quickly to other things that need to be done by them. 2. I do this for pretty much every player - a bit more focus on SRT becos of 1. ICF and its posters going OTT on SRT - whether u like it or not this point of ICFers OTT on SRT is a factor in me spending more time on him, and 2. SRT is the big deal of indian cricket. However, If ever there was a teeny weeny soft corner, I can admit, that I've had it for Dravid - not that much of a soft corner for him either, but maybe a tiny one. Extremely sincere, hardworking and 100% team man cricketer. He probably deserved adulation equivalent to SRT, but has actually gotten adulation less than SRT and less than SG as well. 3. Dravid in Tests - Maybe some feel that needs criticism, but I believe he is good in Tests. Dravid in ODIs - yes, he has not done well recently, and needs criticism. But the guy is out of the ODI squad since Pak series! So, its already over for him. ODI career finito! In Tests, I still think and believe RD is a very good player.

[The Outsider]

I won't comment on #1 because I find it pretty crazy to be in the notion that what we do and don't write on this forum affects the player's performances, but yeah, to each his own. If you think cricket forums are primarily meant for criticism of players so they might improve, fine.

2. I do this for pretty much every player - a bit more focus on SRT becos of 1. ICF and its posters 2. SRT is the big deal of indian cricket. However, If ever there was a teeny weeny soft corner, I can admit, that I've had it for Dravid - not that much of a soft corner for him either, but maybe a tiny one.

How is Tendulkar the big deal of Indian cricket? You are making him out to be. He has the same level of employment contract as many others and whatever else he earns is performance/personality based. Why should Tendulkar be expected to perform better than other players who are getting the same money? That he does is a different matter, but there is no justification for expecting him to perform at a level different from others based on logic, is there?

3. Dravid in Tests - I dont understand why we need to question him. Dravid in ODIs - yes, he has not done well recently, and needs criticism. But the guy is out of the ODI squad since Pak series! So, its already over for him.

Why not question Dravid in tests? Personally, I think he deserves a spot but if I want to go down the road of the expectations you have from Tendulkar, Dravid should not be in the test side. And if Dravid in ODIs needs/needed criticism did you fulfill your duty in doing so? No as far as posts/threads on the board are concerned. But I guess Tendulkar keeps you busy enough.

[Rajan]

ok, I have read enough posts in this thread and am following cricket for around 25 years closely.so, let me add my 2 penny to this. Tendulkar should not open the innings when India chases any total above 200 against quality attacks.He may not be agreeable to bat in the middle order but the team needs him to guide the chase and utilise the middle overs after power play.He can very well rotate the strike and handle spinners. the team management should make him see the Bigger picture- any one like Gambhir, Pathan, Uthappa and Sehwag can handle scoring fast in the power play but to manage the big chase, the comfort feeling of "having SRT still to bat" will do wonders for the confidence of the team. Middle order-Yuvi, Dhoni, Rohit can accelerate if necessary while SRT can rotate the strike with the occasional big shot and can guide lower order too as per the asking rate. He will be an asset to the team in the middle order when chasing and opening the innings when setting the target. yes, i am aware of the 90's he scored against England, Pak and the recent 60 against the Lankans while chasing but still i think he can make a huge difference to the team's fortunes if he bats in the middle order while chasing. At east I can watch the match with less palpitations and with more hope if he does not open while chasing.

[The Outsider]

the team management should make him see the Bigger picture- any one like Gambhir, Pathan, Uthappa and Sehwag can handle scoring fast in the power play but to manage the big chase, the comfort feeling of "having SRT still to bat" will do wonders for the confidence of the team.

Sure, just like we saw the big picture in the '92, '99 and '07 WCs. Yeah, if it's a picture like Sholay, it's worth watching it yet again.