How ancient DNA is denying claims by Right Wing Hindus

[Alam_dar]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46616574

 

How the right wing Hindus going to answer these new facts, while these new findings is totally against their claims. 

 

The biggest problem is, their Aryan race has itself been proved to be invaders just like the Muslim Mughals. I don't think right wing Hindus could digest these scientific facts. 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Alam_dar

[coffee_rules]

Google OIT and keep up with the latest.RW Hindus never believe in Aryan race. BBC is just BSing.

Edited December 31, 2018 by coffee_rules

[MechEng]

How is the race theory relevant ? What will change if Indians get to know that they have some Scandinavian blood in them? Nothing, it's just an obsession of bygone colonial era.

 

Gujarat actively traded with Romans during ancient times, don't be surprised if many of them moved to middle east and Balkans, and permanently settled there. So do the modern day Italians take fascination whether their ancestry had partly Indian influence? No one is bothered about it.

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46616574

 

How the right wing Hindus going to answer these new facts, while these new findings is totally against their claims. 

 

The biggest problem is, their Aryan race has itself been proved to be invaders just like the Muslim Mughals. I don't think right wing Hindus could digest these scientific facts. 

 

 

 

From the except of your article:

 

" When scholars use the term Aryan, it refers to a group of people who spoke Indo-European languages and called themselves Aryans. And that is how I have used it in this article. It does not refer to a race, as Hitler used it or as some in the Hindu right wing use it."

 

 

Would be nice if you read your own damn article before you say Aryan race is invaders. 

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

From the except of your article:

" When scholars use the term Aryan, it refers to a group of people who spoke Indo-European languages and called themselves Aryans. And that is how I have used it in this article. It does not refer to a race, as Hitler used it or as some in the Hindu right wing use it."

Would be nice if you read your own damn article before you say Aryan race is invaders. 

 

Not only it is a logical conclusion, but also written clearly in the article itself: 

 

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

 

 

For me, the difference between Aryan invaders and Mughal invaders is this that Mughals brought an extra problem of their "Non Compromising" religion with themselves. This religion is the main problem of Mughals/Muslims not integrating in the native India even centuries of stay in India. 

 

Had the Right Wing made only the Religion of Islam an issue, then they would have been much successful as it is a reality. But they also started discriminating people in name of race, which was a stupid move. Racism and Caste system should end and should not play any practical role in our life. 

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Not only it is a logical conclusion, but also written clearly in the article itself: 

 

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

 

 

For me, the difference between Aryan invaders and Mughal invaders is this that Mughals brought an extra problem of their "Non Compromising" religion with themselves. This religion is the main problem of Mughals/Muslims not integrating in the native India even centuries of stay in India. 

 

Had the Right Wing made only the Religion of Islam an issue, then they would have been much successful as it is a reality. But they also started discriminating people in name of race, which was a stupid move. Racism and Caste system should end and should not play any practical role in our life. 

The point of the article is that Sanskrit originated as a language outside India and the Vedic culture was carried into India. Not that the Aryans were a race of people coming from outside. Infact the article clearly states that there is no Aryan race, i quoted you the part that says so, yet you persist with this race nonsense. Why ?

[Alam_dar]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The point of the article is that Sanskrit originated as a language outside India and the Vedic culture was carried into India. Not that the Aryans were a race of people coming from outside. Infact the article clearly states that there is no Aryan race, i quoted you the part that says so, yet you persist with this race nonsense. Why ?

Please differentiate, I absolutely didn't talk if Arya was a race or not. 

But I was talking about "Right Wing" and "what they believe". And these RW Hindu Nationalists see Arya as a race. But by doing so (i.e. considering Arya as race) they are in deep trouble while it is making Arya race an invader from outside (according to ancient DNA), which is same as Muslim Mughals. 

 

This same thing has been discussed in that part of article which I posted above. Let us look once again:

//

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

//

 

I hope you see that this part of article is not talking what is right or wrong about Aryan, but it giving the perspective of RW Hindu nationalists and what they think about Arya, and their difficulties in doing so in light of the ancient DNA. 

 

[Muloghonto]

46 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Please differentiate, I absolutely didn't talk if Arya was a race or not. 

But I was talking about "Right Wing" and "what they believe". And these RW Hindu Nationalists see Arya as a race. But by doing so (i.e. considering Arya as race) they are in deep trouble while it is making Arya race an invader from outside (according to ancient DNA), which is same as Muslim Mughals. 

No, hindu right wing mostly does NOT see Aryans as a race, they see it as a cultural benchmark of being the 'idealized hindu'. Its the LEFT that sees Aryans as a race. 

46 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

This same thing has been discussed in that part of article which I posted above. Let us look once again:

//

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

//

Hindus dont put any stock on racial purity. They put it on caste purity. Big difference. A hardcore casteist brahmin Punjabi is more comfortable with a Malayali Brahmin for marriage than fellow Punjabi vaysyas. 

46 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

I hope you see that this part of article is not talking what is right or wrong about Aryan, but it giving the perspective of RW Hindu nationalists and what they think about Arya, and their difficulties in doing so in light of the ancient DNA. 

 

And this article is completely wrong because it makes major assumptions that are not true. RW Hindus dont think of Aryans as race. Caste is not race-based either. 

[gattaca]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Please differentiate, I absolutely didn't talk if Arya was a race or not. 

But I was talking about "Right Wing" and "what they believe". And these RW Hindu Nationalists see Arya as a race. But by doing so (i.e. considering Arya as race) they are in deep trouble while it is making Arya race an invader from outside (according to ancient DNA), which is same as Muslim Mughals. 

 

This same thing has been discussed in that part of article which I posted above. Let us look once again:

//

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

//

 

I hope you see that this part of article is not talking what is right or wrong about Aryan, but it giving the perspective of RW Hindu nationalists and what they think about Arya, and their difficulties in doing so in light of the ancient DNA. 

 

Where do you come up with this stuff really ? No one puts racial purity in India. People have come from different places to settle in India. Parsis, Jews, Mughals, christians etc. have come home to India in the past. Indian is not a race to be honest there is no concept of race for Indians. South India have different genetics compared to North or east or west. You should see the documentary about Kerala and how they were the first people from Africa to arrive in Indian coast. 

[MechEng]

1 hour ago, gattaca said:

Where do you come up with this stuff really ? No one puts racial purity in India. People have come from different places to settle in India. Parsis, Jews, Mughals, christians etc. have come home to India in the past. Indian is not a race to be honest there is no concept of race for Indians. South India have different genetics compared to North or east or west. You should see the documentary about Kerala and how they were the first people from Africa to arrive in Indian coast. 

Even that is wrong. The purpose of race theories were to come up with a well defined narrative for Europeans to know their origins, this craze began in the enlightenment era, before that there was no concept of race in Europe except for christians and heathens.

This out of Africa migration theory is nothing but continuation of that craze which began in the medeival era.

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

Even that is wrong. The purpose of race theories were to come up with a well defined narrative for Europeans to know their origins, this craze began in the enlightenment era, before that there was no concept of race in Europe except for christians and heathens.

This out of Africa migration theory is nothing but continuation of that craze which began in the medeival era.

TBH out of Africa is on extremely solid scientific grounds.Age of enlightenment & Christian origin quests may've lead to the question but none of the European christians were happy (and they still are not happy) to find out that we all come from Africa. The oldest human fossil records are *all* from Africa. Africans have the oldest & greatest diversity of mitochondrial DNA. Africa is the continent with the greatest diversity of languages. 
Non-African origin theories are standing on a lot more empty belief and hot air - every single one of them. 

 

[coffee_rules]

19 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

TBH out of Africa is on extremely solid scientific grounds.Age of enlightenment & Christian origin quests may've lead to the question but none of the European christians were happy (and they still are not happy) to find out that we all come from Africa. The oldest human fossil records are *all* from Africa. Africans have the oldest & greatest diversity of mitochondrial DNA. Africa is the continent with the greatest diversity of languages. 
Non-African origin theories are standing on a lot more empty belief and hot air - every single one of them. 

 

New research proves we came from all over, the opposition to Out of Africa, is not just based on prejudice or bias.

[coffee_rules]

On 12/31/2018 at 3:50 PM, Alam_dar said:

Please differentiate, I absolutely didn't talk if Arya was a race or not. 

But I was talking about "Right Wing" and "what they believe". And these RW Hindu Nationalists see Arya as a race. But by doing so (i.e. considering Arya as race) they are in deep trouble while it is making Arya race an invader from outside (according to ancient DNA), which is same as Muslim Mughals. 

 

This same thing has been discussed in that part of article which I posted above. Let us look once again:

//

The idea of the mixing of different population groups is also unappealing to Hindu nationalists as they put a premium on racial purity. There is also the additional issue of the migration theory putting Aryans on the same footing as latter-day Muslim conquerors of India - such as the Mughals.

//

 

I hope you see that this part of article is not talking what is right or wrong about Aryan, but it giving the perspective of RW Hindu nationalists and what they think about Arya, and their difficulties in doing so in light of the ancient DNA. 

 

You are so wrong to assume Hindutva means an Aryan race. It is about fighting for a civilizational narration that is lost in time, translation, misappropriation, wrong interpretation and falsehood. We understood the concepts of environmental presarvation long before it became a buzzword for young liberals to throw about. We have talked about universal manhood, world citizenship (vishwa manava) , inclusiveness, 5000 years ago in texts. We are fighting western imposed words like secularism, liberalism, that are christian influenced constructs as we have our own swadeshi constructs that we can follow instead of aping the west.

Edited January 1, 2019 by coffee_rules

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

New research proves we came from all over, the opposition to Out of Africa, is not just based on prejudice or bias.

Source please. 

New research that i've seen have merely altered the timeline of when modern humans left Africa. The oldest material evidence of humanity is still from Africa. Furthrmore, genetic data is decisive as well and genetic data CLEARLY points to Out of Africa model. So far, we have material evidence ( fossils) converging with the genetic data of Africa being our homeland first. 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

You are so wrong to assume Hindutva means an Aryan race. It is about fighting for a civilizational narration that is lost in time, translation, misappropriation, wrong interpretation and falsehood. We understood the concepts of environmental presarvation long before it became a buzzword for young liberals to throw about. We have talked about universal manhood, world citizenship (vishwa manava) , inclusiveness, 5000 years ago in texts. We are fighting western imposed words like secularism, liberalism, that are christian influenced constructs as we have our own swadeshi constructs that we can follow instead of aping the west.

There are things India can learn from the west, there are things the west can learn from India. 

[Vijy]

22 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

TBH out of Africa is on extremely solid scientific grounds.Age of enlightenment & Christian origin quests may've lead to the question but none of the European christians were happy (and they still are not happy) to find out that we all come from Africa. The oldest human fossil records are *all* from Africa. Africans have the oldest & greatest diversity of mitochondrial DNA. Africa is the continent with the greatest diversity of languages. 
Non-African origin theories are standing on a lot more empty belief and hot air - every single one of them. 

  

Standing on hot air, more like.

[Muloghonto]

10 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Standing on hot air, more like.

Heh. My brother's first degree was in Biochemistry, genetics specialization. Recommended the book 'selfish gene' as a layman's guide to wtf really are genes and how it works. Upon reading and discussing it with him, it becomes clear that our genetic data is 100% pointing towards African origin. If a species has a single point origin and spreads from there, there are genetic patterns in the data for the immigrants vs the ones who never leave. Species homo sapiens matches up 100% with this genetic drift aspect with OOA theory. 

Its a pretty big case closed biologically. Even if we find fossils outside of Africa for humans that are older than from Africa, the biological data will still override chance material evidence. Most of the regionalist origin people have zero answer for the genetic data angle.

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

There are things India can learn from the west, there are things the west can learn from India. 

Yes, most certainly, that's how it was 5000 years ago, when humanity learnt from each other. Romans have recorded history about some textile or silk being so popular and it was from Indian region. Later the narrative is that the west civilized the whole world.

[cowboysfan]

wtf is that  BBC article.everybody knows these nomads called themselves aryans because they believed they were the civilized ones,nothing to do with any race .the word aryan was corrupted by german  intellectuals who wanted to differentiate themselves from the rest of the europeans.

[Alam_dar]

Despite bringing the argument of Arya being word in Vedas for noble, there does also exist the concept of race to it too. We can clearly see it in Aryan VS Dravidian divide. 

 

Link:

 

Aryans and Dravidians - A controversial issue

The most basic division of the Indian society is of Aryans and Dravidians. According to this division, nearly 72% of Indians are Aryans and 28% are Dravidians. The north Indians are the descendants of Aryans and the south Indians are Dravidians. The languages spoken in five states of south India are considered Dravidian languages and most of the languages spoken in the north are considered Aryan languages. The general script of the Aryan languages is different from the general script of Dravidian languages. The Indians also distinguish themselves by the general north Indian accent and general south Indian accent.

According to general Indian legend, the Aryans arrived in north India somewhere from Iran and southern Russia at around 1500 BC. Before the Aryans, the Dravidian people resided in India. The Aryans disregarded the local cultures. They began conquering and taking control over regions in north India and at the same time pushed the local people southwards or towards the jungles and mountains in north India. According to this historical fact the general division of Indian society is made. North Indians are Aryans and south Indians are Dravidians. But this division isn’t proper because of many reasons.

Many Indians immigrated from one part of India to other parts of India and not all local people of north India were pushed southwards by the Aryans. Some stayed and served the Aryans and others moved to live in the forests and the jungles of north India. Before the arrival of the Aryans there were also other communities in India like Sino-Mongoloids and Austroloids. There were also other foreign immigrations and invaders who arrived in India, from time to time.

There are many that completely doubt that there was ever any Aryan invasion in India. This skepticism is based on the dating of the Aryan invasion of India and the fact that Hinduism and the caste system are believed to have been established as the result of the meetings between the intruding Aryans and original residents of India, the Dravidians.

The caste system is believed to have been established by the Aryans. The fair skinned Aryans who occupied parts of India established the caste system, which allowed only them to be the priests (Brahman), aristocracy (Kshatria) and the businessmen (Vaisia) of the society. Below them in hierarchy were the Sudras who consisted of two communities. One community was of the locals who were subdued by the Aryans and the other were the descendants of Aryans with locals. In Hindu religious stories there are many wars between the good Aryans and the dark skinned demons and devils. The different Gods also have dark skinned slaves. There are stories of demon women trying to seduce good Aryan men in deceptive ways. There were also marriages between Aryan heroes and demon women. Many believe that these incidences really occurred in which, the gods and the positive heroes were people of Aryan origin. And the demons, the devils and the dark skinned slaves were in fact the original residence of India whom the Aryans coined as monsters, devil, demons and slaves. Normally the date given to Aryan invasion is around 1500 BC. But according to Hinduism experts some of the events in Hinduism occurred much earlier. Some of the events like the great war in the Mahabharta epic is believed to have occurred (based on astronomical research) 7000 years ago.