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putrevus

India has no chance of scoring 350 plus

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I don't know why Kohli was looking pleased with that performance. Indian middle order again could not capitalize on the good start provided by openers.Even if one of the top three plays for 50 overs , they have no chance of setting up 350 plus totals .We can forget chasing bigger totals.

 

What was appalling yesterday that Indians could not find one boundary in 4 overs from 42nd to 46th.Dhoni it is very clear has no ability to find boundaries on a regular basis.Rayudu has to go.

 

With Dhoni shamelessly hanging on and hell bent of ruining India's chances of winning world cup. Is India better off playing five frontline bowlers along with Jadhav  and hope to restrict other team from scoring.

 

Pity is other than these two bozos along with Karthik India has very good team.It has all the bases covered.I really hope Gill is given a chance and is good enough to replace Rayudu.

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I wish there was an easy way to gather cumulative statistics of team scores at different stages of an ODI, especially batting first.  

 

I'd bet that England's top 3 are outscoring India's superstars in the 1st 25 overs CONSISTENTLY.  

 

At this point, Dhoni is what he is.  In fact, his performance yesterday - 48(33) is about the best you can expect from him.  But the 'worst' batting performance of the day was by Rayudu.  When Kohli got out, he was already on 30-odd, roughly run a ball.  At that point, as an int'l batsman, you have your eye in.  It was his job to start attacking.  He refused to do so until multiple messages were sent out to him, with 'bat changes'.   

 

But I wouldn't want to blame Rayudu entirely for yesterday's underwhelming performance.  The openers could have, and should have scored at least 20-25 more runs in the deliveries they faced cumulatively.   It is extremely unfair to the team and the rest of the batsman to eat 50% or more of the total deliveries, including 60 balls of the best powerplay, and score under run-a-ball, on such batting friendly tracks.  Top order batsman cannot bat "safe" until they cross their personal milestones, and then try to "make it up".  For one thing, there's no guarantee that they will get there - perfect example yesterday - and the times that they don't "catch up", they leave the rest of the team in too deep a hole.  

 

I have been banging on and on about this since before 2015.  And NOTHING has changed.  I used to believe that it was Dhoni's captaincy that was responsible for the "safe" batting tactics, the "take it deep" philosophy that willingly gave up 20-30 runs from the max score in order to minimize the chances of a 240 all out.  I thought Virat's captaincy would finally bring India's batting tactics to the modern age.  Boy was I wrogn.

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We have a chance id we bat Dhoni at 4 and Jadhav at 5 and Karthik or Pandya can follow.

 

Dhoni is lovked for world cup so futile tondiacuss id he belongs to team or not. So since he is palying I rather ahve hik at 4 and yield out Rayudu and put Jadhav in early and then have Jadhav in.

 

Alos have Oant in squd in case Karthik or Jadhav have disastrous start we can always have back up.

 

anyways with 9 games at least team is going to change few times so better go with this

 

Dhawan

Rohit

Kohli

Dhoni

Jadhav

Karthik/Pant

Pandya

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India will always struggle to score 350 not with just a limp middle order but the way the top three play.

 

As good as Rohit and Dhawan are, both are in it for.long run and never really capitalise on power play, rarely do they score 110 plus in first 15 overs

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10 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I have been banging on and on about this since before 2015.  And NOTHING has changed.  I used to believe that it was Dhoni's captaincy that was responsible for the "safe" batting tactics, the "take it deep" philosophy that willingly gave up 20-30 runs from the max score in order to minimize the chances of a 240 all out.  I thought Virat's captaincy would finally bring India's batting tactics to the modern age.  Boy was I wrogn.

 

england bat deep .. we dont have that luxury 

woakes and stokes .. two allrounders

and david willey establishing himself , their top order can fire from the beginning 

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3 minutes ago, chewy said:

India will always struggle to score 350 not with just a limp middle order but the way the top three play.

 

As good as Rohit and Dhawan are, both are in it for.long run and never really capitalise on power play, rarely do they score 110 plus in first 15 overs

Whatever you may say but if the top 3 has scored 170 in 30 overs, rest of the batting has to be capable enough to get to 350.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, chewy said:

India will always struggle to score 350 not with just a limp middle order but the way the top three play.

 

As good as Rohit and Dhawan are, both are in it for.long run and never really capitalise on power play, rarely do they score 110 plus in first 15 overs

One could argue that they're batting that way because of our poor middle order also. If India end up say like 100/3 with all (ro,dh,ko) gone we wouldn't cross 250.

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dhoni retires

pant in

 

rayudu gets kicked out by gill/ shaw

 

pandya brothers at 6/7 

 

jadeja as reserve

 

your middle order is decent

 

no conplaints with dhawan - never eats up deliveries 

rohit is the issue - sooner teams realize that a 30 ball 40 is more valuable at top then a 101 ball 100

how i miss Viru

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we will loose to england or west indies - they are the power hitting teams and unfortunately india seems to think that their wristspinners will bail them out - highly unlikely looking at way england batted in odi against us 

 

for now , enjoy ipl tamasha. pray that we continue to do well in tests. prepare for a semifinal exit from world cup with kohli and shastri patting each others backs.

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7 minutes ago, velu said:

 

england bat deep .. we dont have that luxury 

woakes and stokes .. two allrounders

and david willey establishing himself , their top order can fire from the beginning 

Nobody's saying that the top order should bat like Afridi on hashish.  But they need to try and improve their production by 10-15%.  Increasing momentum while managing risk is not something that you can just flip a switch when you decide to.  It takes dozens of games to practice and incorporate into your batting method.  

 

Besides, there's always grandpa to tuk-tuk and "rebuild" if we need to.  

 

If it were up to me, I would have had Rishabh Pant or KLPD open, with license to attack, along with Dhawan, pushing Rohit to #3 and Virat to #4.   If Rohit can give up opening and bat in the middle order for Ambanis, he can certainly do it for Indian team.  

 

But making these changes means Virat gets fewer chances to rack up those big scores in meaningless games that have made him the "star" he is today. Same for Rohit.  Why would Bunty's 2 "ballerz" give up the cushy gigs they have right now just so that the team can improve its win% from 75 to 85%, increase WC winning chances by 10-20%?  As it is, even with being selfish, Indian team's chances are pretty damn good.    And all the blame and anger is directed at Greybeard, Rayudu etc.  

 

Why ruin a good gig when you don't have to.  

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15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I wish there was an easy way to gather cumulative statistics of team scores at different stages of an ODI, especially batting first.  

 

I'd bet that England's top 3 are outscoring India's superstars in the 1st 25 overs CONSISTENTLY.  

 

At this point, Dhoni is what he is.  In fact, his performance yesterday - 48(33) is about the best you can expect from him.  But the 'worst' batting performance of the day was by Rayudu.  When Kohli got out, he was already on 30-odd, roughly run a ball.  At that point, as an int'l batsman, you have your eye in.  It was his job to start attacking.  He refused to do so until multiple messages were sent out to him, with 'bat changes'.   

 

But I wouldn't want to blame Rayudu entirely for yesterday's underwhelming performance.  The openers could have, and should have scored at least 20-25 more runs in the deliveries they faced cumulatively.   It is extremely unfair to the team and the rest of the batsman to eat 50% or more of the total deliveries, including 60 balls of the best powerplay, and score under run-a-ball, on such batting friendly tracks.  Top order batsman cannot bat "safe" until they cross their personal milestones, and then try to "make it up".  For one thing, there's no guarantee that they will get there - perfect example yesterday - and the times that they don't "catch up", they leave the rest of the team in too deep a hole.  

 

I have been banging on and on about this since before 2015.  And NOTHING has changed.  I used to believe that it was Dhoni's captaincy that was responsible for the "safe" batting tactics, the "take it deep" philosophy that willingly gave up 20-30 runs from the max score in order to minimize the chances of a 240 all out.  I thought Virat's captaincy would finally bring India's batting tactics to the modern age.  Boy was I wrogn.

I don't think Rayudu is capabble of doing any better against good bowling, he is limited player.Dhoni is done , when team needed 10 plus over Dhoni was taking leisure singles.

 

I would not blame top order that much for not going gun blazing from ball one as they know they don't have any one else to finish the innings. It proved yesterday once Kohli got out both Rayudu and Dhoni looked lost and I am tired of this nonsense that Dhoni is needed to marshall bowlers. 

 

Jadhav needs to be given bigger role and Pandya if he playing should always come ahead of Dhoni. Pant should have given a chance to play at no 4. He is a leftie also which is big plus.

 

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2 minutes ago, chewy said:

At some point India will need to bring an explosive Opener, some one like Roy or Munro

Which means sacrifice the 44-45 average for 30-35 average but SR of 105 - 110 

If it is required to get practical about scoring quicky in PP, it might not be a bad idea to get in a more aggressive opener like Shaw/Gill/Agarwal/...., or get someone like Pandya or Jadhav to do what Kalu did for SL in 96

 

If the openers bat the way they do and are able to recover, it is great. The issue is if they get out after wasting the balls and then Rayudu, Dhoni and company will waste more balls .... If we play steady openers, we need more aggressive batsmen at 4, 5 and 6 

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3 minutes ago, mani sha said:

we will loose to england or west indies - they are the power hitting teams and unfortunately india seems to think that their wristspinners will bail them out - highly unlikely looking at way england batted in odi against us 

 

for now , enjoy ipl tamasha. pray that we continue to do well in tests. prepare for a semifinal exit from world cup with kohli and shastri patting each others backs.

True.its stupid to expect wrist spin to bail us out everytime.

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25 minutes ago, Stan AF said:

One could argue that they're batting that way because of our poor middle order also. If India end up say like 100/3 with all (ro,dh,ko) gone we wouldn't cross 250.

of course, right now I wouldn't change the top 3, even if someone Jason Roy. Mainly because the middle order has no gears. 

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21 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Jadhav needs to be given bigger role and Pandya if he playing should always come ahead of Dhoni.

Weren't you the one arguing against me when I advocated promoting Jadhav in the batting order?  This was last year.

 

 

Edited by sandeep

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30 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

So we dint get to 350 today cos Dhoni scored only 48 of 33 or is it cos we score at 5 rpo in first 15 ? 

 

 

So you expect openers to start scoring 10 RPO from first over.Teams are doubling their totals from 30 overs. They had eight wickets in hand.It should be not too much to ask to score a boundary every over from 40th over.

 

There is a downside of Rohit Sharma's batting if he gets out after consuming lot of deliveries but we simply don't have any alternative for him. scoring 100 plus in last ten is a norm and they scored 80 odd due to Jadhav's last over magic.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, chewy said:

India will always struggle to score 350 not with just a limp middle order but the way the top three play.

 

As good as Rohit and Dhawan are, both are in it for.long run and never really capitalise on power play, rarely do they score 110 plus in first 15 overs

Correct. One of the less discussed issue is our top three especially Rohit taking a lot of time and wasting pp and a significant chunk of overs even on better surfaces. Of course middle order is crap too.

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16 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Sssh.  Don't interrupt the stupid brigade with less than obvious facts.

I get some of the criticism Dhoni gets , no denying he has to do better but I really don’t see how he’s the root cause of all problems . As bad as we think our middle order is the top order more often scores only soft runs . We are ok with the openers settling in for 30 overs before they take some risks , but some how the middle order guys are expected to come in and hit out from word go ? 

The only team which scores 350 with ease is England and some of these guys should watch how they pace their innings . Without a wicket lost Eng would be close to 200 in 25 . 

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13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

So you expect openers to start scoring 10 RPO from first over.Teams are doubling their totals from 30 overs. They had eight wickets in hand.It should be not too much to ask to score a boundary every over from 40th over.

 

There is a downside of Rohit Sharma's batting if he gets out after consuming lot of deliveries but we simply don't have any alternative for him. scoring 100 plus in last ten is a norm and they scored 80 odd due to Jadhav's last over magic.

 

 

Not 10 , but definitely not less than 6 . It’s so freakin easy to score 6+ in power plays these days . Pak fans are calling imam for his 100 yesterday , why are we ok with similar approach ? 

No 100 in last 10 is ideal , but doesn’t happen as often as you think it does .  The whole approach of saving your wicket for slog overs is so 90s and is going to cost us in big matches 

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41 minutes ago, zen said:

If it is required to get practical about scoring quicky in PP, it might not be a bad idea to get in a more aggressive opener like Shaw/Gill/Agarwal/...., or get someone like Pandya or Jadhav to do what Kalu did for SL in 96

 

If the openers bat the way they do and are able to recover, it is great. The issue is if they get out after wasting the balls and then Rayudu, Dhoni and company will waste more balls .... If we play steady openers, we need more aggressive batsmen at 4, 5 and 6 

    As i see more and more of Shaw's batting , i get a feeling that he may surprse many of us with his strike rate in one dayers as  opener. He is a BOUNDARY HITTER .. 

 BTW ..  this is all for post WC .

 

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1 minute ago, jusarrived said:

I get some of the criticism Dhoni gets , no denying he has to do better but I really don’t see how he’s the root cause of all problems . As bad as we think our middle order is the top order more often scores only soft runs . We are ok with the openers settling in for 30 overs before they take some risks , but some how the middle order guys are expected to come in and hit out from word go ? 

The only team which scores 350 with ease is England and some of these guys should watch how they pace their innings . Without a wicket lost Eng would be close to 200 in 25 . 

I don't think that is the case with England, their openers score faster but they have license to go hard from ball one .How many runs have their middle order scored and India middle order scored in last 24 months.

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Dont forget India is hedging the their bets. I ll take 110 / 1 in 20 overs anyday than 145/4. Its about resources. India dontnhave effective resources at the end. The CT Final could have been won if India would have played first 10 overs for 45 runs without a wicket. The slam bang worked when Sehwag was there but since he isnt its the next best formula available..

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We need to get rid of rayudu asap with gill,and have pant on standby.

The reason england can bat the way they do is they bat till 10,so everyone throws their bat around.On flat wkts their batting strategy is excellent but if pitch does anything they can collapse.Indian bowling is much better and works on almost all pitches.We cant replicate english batting strategy as we dont have the players for it and have a long tail.Best we can do is pant and gill -rayudud out.Dhoni is unfortunate case of swallowing the bitter pill.Pandya at 7 will increase our power hitting somewhat.

Edited by Tendulkar1996

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7 minutes ago, jusarrived said:

Not 10 , but definitely not less than 6 . It’s so freakin easy to score 6+ in power plays these days . Pak fans are calling imam for his 100 yesterday , why are we ok with similar approach ? 

No 100 in last 10 is ideal , but doesn’t happen as often as you think it does .  The whole approach of saving your wicket for slog overs is so 90s and is going to cost us in big matches 

I don't think they are saving wickets for slog overs. Rohit is only culprit, Dhawan and Kohli don't waste too many deliveries.Rohit is incapable of doing better as his batting is built on scoring boundaries and lot of dot balls.

 

Problem is Rohit is the only guy in this team who is capable of top gear.

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It depends even if rohit plays with 100+ strike rate and makes quick fire 50 - 60 & gets out will that really help much? Dhawan do play with 90+ strike rate most of time but he can't convert the score. It's all about playing safe cricket by top 3 as they know if they go middle order is really weak to win us the match.

Edited by Nikola

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59 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Nobody's saying that the top order should bat like Afridi on hashish.  But they need to try and improve their production by 10-15%.  Increasing momentum while managing risk is not something that you can just flip a switch when you decide to.  It takes dozens of games to practice and incorporate into your batting method.  

 

Besides, there's always grandpa to tuk-tuk and "rebuild" if we need to.  

 

If it were up to me, I would have had Rishabh Pant or KLPD open, with license to attack, along with Dhawan, pushing Rohit to #3 and Virat to #4.   If Rohit can give up opening and bat in the middle order for Ambanis, he can certainly do it for Indian team.  

 

But making these changes means Virat gets fewer chances to rack up those big scores in meaningless games that have made him the "star" he is today. Same for Rohit.  Why would Bunty's 2 "ballerz" give up the cushy gigs they have right now just so that the team can improve its win% from 75 to 85%, increase WC winning chances by 10-20%?  As it is, even with being selfish, Indian team's chances are pretty damn good.    And all the blame and anger is directed at Greybeard, Rayudu etc.  

 

Why ruin a good gig when you don't have to.  

The only thing good abt our batting is top3. So what everyone saying is to overcome the incompetency of Rayadu and Dhoni top order should bat fast. I mean we were 172 after 30 and typically expectation is it should be doubke by 50 over. So let's first discuss middle order sloths and how to get rid of them most issues ll be sorted out then and there.

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2 minutes ago, neel roy said:

Dont forget India is hedging the their bets. I ll take 110 / 1 in 20 overs anyday than 145/4. Its about resources. India dontnhave effective resources at the end. 

ITs a bad bet though.  Always gambling that one of the openers will "catch up" after they are satisfied with their personal score.  Its a better more safer bet to not assume that they will, and maintain a decent team scoring rate so that even if they fall after scoring 40-odd or 60-odd, the next batsmen aren't forced to tee off from ball 1 to keep the team's chances of putting up a strong score alive.  

 

And its a false choice of 145/4 and 110/1 - I'd take 135/2 in 20, each and every single game over 95/0.   We do have the likes of Virat and Dhoni, who can be relied upon to "rebuild" on a consistent basis.  I'd happily sacrifice 2 out of Shikhar, Rohit and Rishabh/KLPD if it meant that the team was +20 at the end of 20 overs - in terms of runs vs balls - as opposed to being minus 20, every damn time. 

 

Team has 300 balls to bat in an ODI.  If you want to finish the innings at +50 or more, you can't afford to be at -25 at the half-way mark.  Especially when the top order is given the opportunity to bat with only 3 boundary fielders in the 1st 60 balls.   

 

Its a bullshit excuse to claim we don't have batting resources.  Even Rayu-dud, as limited as he is, can probably contribute a decent 70 80 runs at 85+SR, if it comes to that.  

 

Our SELFISH top order gluttonously feeds and eats up ALL the extra deliveries to "get their eye in" in the name of "giving the team a start'".  Consistently putting the middle order in situations where the odds are against them.  

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Nobody's saying that the top order should bat like Afridi on hashish.  But they need to try and improve their production by 10-15%.  Increasing momentum while managing risk is not something that you can just flip a switch when you decide to.  It takes dozens of games to practice and incorporate into your batting method.  

 

Besides, there's always grandpa to tuk-tuk and "rebuild" if we need to.  

 

If it were up to me, I would have had Rishabh Pant or KLPD open, with license to attack, along with Dhawan, pushing Rohit to #3 and Virat to #4.   If Rohit can give up opening and bat in the middle order for Ambanis, he can certainly do it for Indian team.  

 

But making these changes means Virat gets fewer chances to rack up those big scores in meaningless games that have made him the "star" he is today. Same for Rohit.  Why would Bunty's 2 "ballerz" give up the cushy gigs they have right now just so that the team can improve its win% from 75 to 85%, increase WC winning chances by 10-20%?  As it is, even with being selfish, Indian team's chances are pretty damn good.    And all the blame and anger is directed at Greybeard, Rayudu etc.  

 

Why ruin a good gig when you don't have to.  

Right you want to ruin one good thing which this team  has and destroy it.

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Just now, bahubali said:

The only thing good abt our batting is top3. So what everyone saying is to overcome the incompetency of Rayadu and Dhoni top order should bat fast. I mean we were 172 after 30 and typically expectation is it should be doubke by 50 over. So let's first discuss middle order sloths and how to get rid of them most issues ll be sorted out then and there.

This is not really true - IIRC statistics show that the score is usually doubled around the 27 over mark, not the 30th.  

 

And its a question of simple math - Top order wants to eat 180 balls  - 60% of the deliveries, to score less than 50% of the eventual total, and you still want to blame the middle order.  Yes, sometimes it IS the middle order that's responsible.  But a lot of times the top order digs the team into an unnecessary hole, and they never get called out on it.  

 

Because the fans and media are "analysing" cricket at a basic ignorant level.  Banjo, chewtiya bana rahe hai sabko. 

 

In the immortal words of the Pakistani aunty - Yeh bik gayi hai gormint!

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1 hour ago, jusarrived said:

So we dint get to 350 today cos Dhoni scored only 48 of 33 or is it cos we score at 5 rpo in first 15 ? 

 

 

Did you saw match bloddy due to small boundary and drop catches and edges he hits 2 4s. The only one in entire match he connected it went for 6 in 49 the over . In 44 the and 46th overs he played 4 and 3 dot balls. There were no any boundary between 42- 46 the over. Imran who the hell play dot balls between 45 to 50 overs. If it's not for Jadhav firework and had Rayadu survived with dhoni for few more over Jamanat jabt ho jati thi apni.

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When kohli came our average was almost 6.  When he got out our average was same. 

He played half of the deliveries.

If worlds best batsman is playing at such strike rate  how you can blame raydu who was scoring at the same rate.  Sometime kohli gets away just because of his stature.

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Just now, bahubali said:

Did you saw match bloddy due to small boundary and drop catches and edges he hits 2 4s. The only one in entire match he connected it went for 6 in 49 the over . In 44 the and 46th overs he played 4 and 3 dot balls. There were no any boundary between 42- 46 the over. Imran who the hell play dot balls between 45 to 50 overs. If it's not for Jadhav firework and had Rayadu survived with dhoni for few more over Jamanat jabt ho jati thi apni.

Dhoni didn't bat that great.  But at this point, we can't expect him to score much faster than run-a-ball really.  That's why he should bat behind Jadhav, Pandya, DK etc - especially if we are batting first.

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2 minutes ago, Selfish Sachin Stinks said:

Stop talking crap

 

When selfish sachin played india rarely crossed 350 bec of his tuk tuk style

 

 

Tendulkar's scoring rate was head and shoulders above his peers - in his own team and across the world.  It was a different scoring era back then. Get lost with your ignorant bias. 

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2 minutes ago, Nonbeliever said:

When kohli came our average was almost 6.  When he got out our average was same. 

He played half of the deliveries.

If worlds best batsman is playing at such strike rate  how you can blame raydu who was scoring at the same rate.  Sometime kohli gets away just because of his stature.

Rayudu wasn't super guility yesterday. Only in his last 10-15 deliveries he was clearly being selfish.  

 

Primary responsibility for the lower than ideal score is on the much glorified openers.

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9 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is not really true - IIRC statistics show that the score is usually doubled around the 27 over mark, not the 30th.  

 

And its a question of simple math - Top order wants to eat 180 balls  - 60% of the deliveries, to score less than 50% of the eventual total, and you still want to blame the middle order.  Yes, sometimes it IS the middle order that's responsible.  But a lot of times the top order digs the team into an unnecessary hole, and they never get called out on it.  

 

Because the fans and media are "analysing" cricket at a basic ignorant level.  Banjo, chewtiya bana rahe hai sabko. 

 

In the immortal words of the Pakistani aunty - Yeh bik gayi hai gormint!

Man the only saving grace in our basting is top order it's unfortunate if you are unable to see glaring issue no one need media to understand what crap we are served in middle order. If you think top order is issue replace them with power hitter and see how our scintillating middle order pile up 350-400 every match. Top order may play a bit faster but looking at pathetic middle order you can't blame them  to be a bit cautious and around 6 run rate till 30 the over are considered great start so if you still feel it's top order wich is issue I rest my case.

Edited by bahubali

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1 minute ago, Selfish Sachin Stinks said:

He was a tuk tuk guy who let Sehqag do all the scoring and risks

 

Similar to how Dhawan does now for selfish Rohit

 

Remember also sachin was worst ever Indian captain and got mad at KKD for scoring winning runs

You have some serious issues brother.  Get yourself some help.

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7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Dhoni didn't bat that great.  But at this point, we can't expect him to score much faster than run-a-ball really.  That's why he should bat behind Jadhav, Pandya, DK etc - especially if we are batting first.

And that's what the issue just to accommodate his bs in middle order and to overcompensate his slow basting everyone shall play accordingly. Don't you think it's injustice to others.

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