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Gollum

Team India = RSA of 90s and 2000s?

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Self explanatory. Talking about the RSA team from readmission (1992-93) to circa 2009. 2010-15 RSA test team was ATG although their white ball choking continued. We have a long way to go before matching that test team which was legendary in overseas assignments.

 

We are a very good test team, unbeatable at home. Even RSA was damn good at home but unfortunately the ATG Aussies schooled them there (similar conditions too) again and again. The Aussies were the only reason why RSA didn't enjoy a prolonged stint at number 1 ranking spot. No such serious challenger for us, so we are a bit lucky. They were competitive overseas but lost many close series. Just like them our test team is bowling heavy, a couple of great batsman and a few more serviceable ones. Must remember that the RSA batting came of age only in late 2000s when Smith, Amla, ABDV peaked together to lend support to the great Kallis.

 

In ODIs/T20s we are bilateral kings but no trophy to show post 2013. Ultimate clownery in big matches, biggest chokers in the international arena. Meaningless stats boosting, no desire to try out new combinations, take useless matches way too seriously and then we implode at crucial junctures in WC/CT/WT20. We will always be hailed as favorites every time we enter major tournaments but fans like us know what we are made of, Kohli's captaincy gives no confidence and we easily panic in key moments. This team gives no assurance it can deliver at WC KO stage, much like that RSA...we always knew they would commit harakiri at the business end. 

Edited by Gollum

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5 minutes ago, mishra said:

So you mean to say our current team is qualitatively comparable to

Kirsten, Kallis, Cullinan, Gibbs,Cronje Pollock Boucher Donald Klusner Adams.

 

 

I somehow feel, Its Kohli, Rohit,Dhawan and Kuldeep along with pathetic opposition (root cause is T20 leagues) is the root cause of our success

 

I am talking about all formats.

 

With reference to your post, qualitatively yes I think the current Indian team will match that RSA team. Kallis was poor in ODIs as was Cullinan....Gibbs, Kirsten and Cronje carried their batting on most days. Their bowling was top notch just like ours...they had better quicks but we are more versatile thanks to the combination.  

Edited by Gollum

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5 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

yes ,when it comes to winning icc events we are quite ordinary .

The reasons for them loosing and us loosing were different. For them, It was attributed to bad luck, choke, dropped catches.

 

For us, We are simply top heavy. So during knockout phase, one game will come where top fails. And thats game over for us.

 

Hence I disagree with OP

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6 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

yes ,when it comes to winning icc events we are quite ordinary .

Its gonna change now. Look at the talent pool we have Gill, Shaw, Pant, Mavi, dubey, Bumrah, nagarkoti etc. We are gonna rule cricket 

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12 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I am talking about all formats.

 

With reference to your post, qualitatively yes I think the current Indian team will match that RSA team. Kallis was poor in ODIs as was Cullinan....Gibbs, Kirsten and Cronje carried their batting on most days. Their bowling was top notch just like ours...they had better quicks but we are more versatile thanks to the combination.  

They managed to compete and beat against all time great team of Aussies. I have my doubts against our 11. All that is needed is 2 wickets. And we are done

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India last won a title in 2013. (which RSA also won as a champions trophy)

 

But unfair to compare to RSA who basically till the last WC did not even win a knockout match. We have reached finals beating teams 

 

in knockout matches.

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i think you are  stretching it way too much.... that  RSA   team can't be compared to with  this team. AUS were the comfortably better team of those times & RSA was a bit more than the others in 'choking' at crucial moments.  Those 2 combined sealed their  fate w.r.t winning major trophies. But this Indian team only became the team of now after the  2017 champions trophy when Kuldeep & Chahal both were taken into the team.Even now we are not the no:1  team unlike Aussies of those days in one dayers. ENG is better at least by a small margin.So it is too early for a comparison

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These performances actually remind me of 1985.  Just like it is today, Indian team was absolutely dominating teams in the Benson Hedges ODI tournament.  Bowling was doing the job with a wrist spinner (Siva) bossing the middle overs.  1987 is definitely the WC that got away.  We lost to an England team in the semi-final that we should have beaten, but didn't, primarily due to tactics and strategy.  Let's hope 2019 is more like 1983 in that aspect.

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11 minutes ago, mishra said:

The reasons for them loosing and us loosing were different. For them, It was attributed to bad luck, choke, dropped catches.

 

For us, We are simply top heavy. So during knockout phase, one game will come where top fails. And thats game over for us.

 

Hence I disagree with OP

2014 WT20: Choked in final, WTF was that from our middle order? Dhoni also had a horrible day as captain. 

2015 WC: Outplayed by a better team in SF, no complaint, meek surrender

2016 WT20: Choked in SF, no balls, dropped catches, poor judgment by Rahane, Dhoni's mad captaincy

2017 CT: Choked in F, no ball, dropped catches, stage fright for bowlers (conceding 350 to Pakistan :facepalm:), batsmen had an off day

 

All these tournaments we breezed through the group stage like RSA of old.

 

We clearly choked in 3 out of those 4 KO matches, we were overwhelming favorites in each of those matches (Lanka, WI, Pak). Simply top heavy? Nah. We have become serial chokers, bottom line. We should have lost the Asia Cup last year but luckily faced an even bigger choker in the final clash. Any other team would have scored 320 that day after such a fantastic start, but for Toygers there is a mental hurdle to pass after what happened in the 2016 WT20 group match. In fact that day our 1st choice bowers were just as bad as the CT 2017 F show, it is a miracle the way Bang threw their wickets and stalled from a position of strength. We barely chased 220 odd, do you think we could have chased even 260 the way we batted?

Edited by Gollum

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31 minutes ago, DHONI_FANN said:

Its gonna change now. Look at the talent pool we have Gill, Shaw, Pant, Mavi, dubey, Bumrah, nagarkoti etc. We are gonna rule cricket 

Hopefully ,but talent aint enough,most teams have talent.You have to be tough under pressure ,also you need a bit of luck to win big tournaments.

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During the 97-98 triseries in aus,  sa were winning all the league matches but steve waugh, who was the captain back then, said that they will beat sa in the best of 3 finals .Sa won the 1st final but aus won the next 2 matches to win the finals series.From there on  the aus media started calling sa chokers and put a lot of pressure on them .They used to play quite tough back then, you can still see a glimpse of it in the commentary box , the likes  mark waugh havent mellowed down much.

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that SA team was filled with quality. no weakness except - didnt have an atg batter like kohli . 

they lost finals as they didnt have a single great performer but worked rather well as a team

their fielding was exceptional - think even now our team is not as good as that team( jonty kronje pollock etc were best fielders ever matched only by aussies - pointing symmonds )

 

but overall that team was -

weak against spin 

relied on lower order to win

didnt have any great one day batter barring kronje( he was very good but cheat)

 

this team india has got only one major issue

 

- lack of power hitters and lower order allrounders . give this team a Yuvi or a Symmonds and this will be an unstoppable team 

 

the team management thinks Rayudu is Symmonds reincarnated . 

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4 hours ago, Gollum said:

2014 WT20: Choked in final, WTF was that from our middle order? Dhoni also had a horrible day as captain. 

2015 WC: Outplayed by a better team in SF, no complaint, meek surrender

2016 WT20: Choked in SF, no balls, dropped catches, poor judgment by Rahane, Dhoni's mad captaincy

2017 CT: Choked in F, no ball, dropped catches, stage fright for bowlers (conceding 350 to Pakistan :facepalm:), batsmen had an off day

 

All these tournaments we breezed through the group stage like RSA of old.

 

We clearly choked in 3 out of those 4 KO matches, we were overwhelming favorites in each of those matches (Lanka, WI, Pak). Simply top heavy? Nah. We have become serial chokers, bottom line. We should have lost the Asia Cup last year but luckily faced an even bigger choker in the final clash. Any other team would have scored 320 that day after such a fantastic start, but for Toygers there is a mental hurdle to pass after what happened in the 2016 WT20 group match. In fact that day our 1st choice bowers were just as bad as the CT 2017 F show, it is a miracle the way Bang threw their wickets and stalled from a position of strength. We barely chased 220 odd, do you think we could have chased even 260 the way we batted?

I know you have put a extensive list but Most blame goes to Rahane Dhoni Yuvraj MSD batting too. They are simply not good enough for limited overs. When Bongs are nearly beating you in your own backyard,  you have to simply accept problems with your team.

Thats why I say, our team is top heavy. That South African has Lance Klusner who would smack at Sr of 150 at number 7

Edited by mishra

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1 minute ago, mishra said:

I know you have put a extensive list but Some blame goes to Rahane Dhoni Yuvraj MSD batting too. They are simply not good enough for kimited overs.

Thats why I say, our team is top heavy. That South African has Lance Klusner who would smack at Sr of 150 at number 7

Klusener had a golden run for 3-4 years, what about the remaining period? 

 

We are top heavy, agreed and I am worried about it going to the WC. 

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1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Klusener had a golden run for 3-4 years, what about the remaining period? 

 

We are top heavy, agreed and I am worried about it going to the WC. 

We are not chokers. We are not unlucky. We simply have few passenger who Do not deserve to be there and are hidden behind our top 3 bats. Hence in each of those games who expected to fail, end up failing. Iirc even in CT we had Yuvi

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I used to remember SA team back then used to send Boje or sometimes Kluesner or Pollock or Symcox up the order and they used to smack more than run a ball 50s and sometimes 100s for fun. 

 

We dont have that kind of a balance.

 

They used to debut a bowler and he would hit 150ks with ease. We are stuck with sharduls and Khaleels of the world.

 

Cronje and Woolmer  were  innovators but Kohli is very conservative in his approach and Shastri a drunkard.

 

Only similarity is our dominance in bilaterals and choking in big knockout games.

Edited by maniac

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17 hours ago, sandeep said:

These performances actually remind me of 1985.  Just like it is today, Indian team was absolutely dominating teams in the Benson Hedges ODI tournament.  Bowling was doing the job with a wrist spinner (Siva) bossing the middle overs.  1987 is definitely the WC that got away.  We lost to an England team in the semi-final that we should have beaten, but didn't, primarily due to tactics and strategy.  Let's hope 2019 is more like 1983 in that aspect.

Can you pls share more on that worldcup defeat.. Kapil Dev was the captain right? 

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13 hours ago, Gollum said:

Klusener had a golden run for 3-4 years, what about the remaining period? 

 

We are top heavy, agreed and I am worried about it going to the WC. 

Imho, RSA was that good a team only because of klusener.. like you said they had an avg batting unit and he was the main guy who used to help them in chasing from impossible situations..that semis tie was a regularity for him. Klusener must have won more matches than even Bevan during that period ( 97 - 02 )

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