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Harsh Thakor

Was Vishwanath a better batsmen against pace than any other Indian batsmen?

Was Vishwanath the best ever Indian batsmen against genuine pace?  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Who was the best ever Indian batsmen against genuine pace?

    • Rahul Dravid
    • Gundappa Vishwanath
    • Sachin Tendulkar
    • Sunil Gavaskar
    • VVS Laxman
      0
    • Virat Kohli
    • Mohinder Amarnath
    • Dilip Vengsarkar
      0
    • Virendra Sehwag
      0
    • M.K.Pataudi
    • Vijay Hazare
      0


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To me against pure pace Vishy displayed more skill than Gavaskar or Tendulkar.Both were technically superior overall and better against fast -medium.Even if they had more power they did not posess Vishy's wristwork or equal his ability to tackle the short rising delivery.I have still not sen even a Tendulkar innings equal the virtuosity of Vishy against the sheer pace of Andy Roberts at Kolkata and Madras in 1974-75 or the ferocity of Sylvester Clarke at Madras in 1978-79.Vishy on bouncy tracks was more effective than Sunny against Lillee,Thomson and Roberts.In defence Sunny was ahead of all but for counter-attack Vishy was on the top of the tree against sheer pace.

 

In the sub-continent Vishy's equal amongst  attacking batsmen against sheer pace were Majid Khan nad Inzamam Ul Haq or arguably VVS Laxman.

Edited by Harsh Thakor

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Amarnath was the most successful one against the deadliest pace attack in cricketing history. The second phase of WI pace quartet (when Marshall replaced Colin Croft). He was way ahead of all Indian batsman in that series. Otherwise i consider Sunny as the best test batsman ever from India, be it against pace or spin or whatever the conditions. But Amarnath was simply amazing in 1982.

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Answer to OP, resounding yes. But if you want peak version, I'd say peak Amarnath was the greatest against pace and I am not limiting to Indian batsman in that case...world over. Vishy did it quite often without helmets and even the helmets those days didn't have grill. I have seen Kohli, Sachin, Dravid getting smashed on their helmets, needless to say I know what would happen to them sans protection. No modern era batsman can be compared to past greats as far as batting against pure pace is concerned because of the safety features available today. I'd add Sunny to complete the top 3, he was the greatest defensive batsman against genuine quicks and more consistent. But they way the other 2 attacked the short ball, the way Amarnath conquered pain and punishment......that deserves special respect. 

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Vishwanath was one of the top bats ever produced by India. His debut century against Australia was a hallmark of a great batsman. I would not go so far to say that he was best against pace but he was real good.

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2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Answer to OP, resounding yes. But if you want peak version, I'd say peak Amarnath was the greatest against pace and I am not limiting to Indian batsman in that case...world over. Vishy did it quite often without helmets and even the helmets those days didn't have grill. I have seen Kohli, Sachin, Dravid getting smashed on their helmets, needless to say I know what would happen to them sans protection. No modern era batsman can be compared to past greats as far as batting against pure pace is concerned because of the safety features available today. I'd add Sunny to complete the top 3, he was the greatest defensive batsman against genuine quicks and more consistent. But they way the other 2 attacked the short ball, the way Amarnath conquered pain and punishment......that deserves special respect. 

It's all relative. This is the biggest reason comparing is difficult.

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I think Vishy is being overrated here, he was great for batting standards of 1970s but he is not better batsman of either spin or fast bowling than Sachin, Dravid, or Sunny to name few. He would barely make second XI all time Indian line up.

 

97 Madras knock while very good would not be great knock against pace bowling , there were no other pace bowlers in the WI team.

 

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He was dropped after 1982/83 series where he couldn't handle the pace and swing of Imran. Your memory needs to be refreshed. Every player had their moments against good pace. Mohinder had his high in 2 series. Really low later with 0,0,0,1,0 scores against WIndies, Same way Sunny had his highs and lows. But he was overall consistent. Tendulkar rarely bothered by raw pace either. Most of the players are bothered by movement not "raw pace". Sehwag is the perfect example. He could slice and dice steyn, Akhtar at will when there is no movement. Kapil dev was good against pace as well.  If you purely talk about counter attack check how Srikkanth took on patterson in his peak even with his woeful hacker technique.

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15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He was dropped after 1982/83 series where he couldn't handle the bottle caps and home umpires of Imran.

Corrected. Do you disagree with the edit? Or should I not point out certain inconvenient facts? 

Quote

Tendulkar rarely bothered by raw pace either.

Then why did he run away from battle against Akhtar despite not gloving it, talking about Rawalpindi 2006 on a patta. Anyone who saw that innings could see he was uncomfortable against the pace. And the number of times I have seen him get hit on the helmet, lemme tell you in the no helmet era he would be a corpse.

Quote

Sehwag is the perfect example.

Except when the line/length of attack was on his ribs...even with zero movement. 

Quote

 

Mohinder had his high in 2 series.

A high no other batsman has reached in the last 120 years of test cricket. 

Edited by Gollum

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SO viswanath was setting Pakistan ablaze in India? He is averaging even worse in India against Pakistan. He was completely uncomfortable facing Imran Khan. Even ROokie like Ravi shastri as a makeshift opener did a better job than Viswanath in that series. Viswanath not even remotely faced any bowler as quick as Akhtar in his era. Viswanath being a shorter guy had some advantage against bouncers just like Sunny had. Not that he was known the "greatest hooker" like Mohinder AMarnath was.  Laxman had issues against pacy fully balls. That doesn't mean he is weak against pace. He was weak against medium pace full balls as well.  An outstanding player against pace would have had better average 

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Irfan Pathan handled P@k!s better in 2006, so Irfan>>>Sachin. What the hell are you smoking man? Enough with the Imran worship...proper fraud if ever there was one. What a stupid example, that Shastri one. I can give 100 similar examples to run down greats and hype up nobodies. Why the need to bring up Pakistan again and again and again....was Imran the only quick of that era? Were the WI and Aus quicks dead when Vishy played them? 

 

Vishy faced scary bowlers like Thommo, Lillee, Holding, Roberts...1 of those 4 was damn well quicker than Akhtar and 2 others were almost if not equally quick. Don't believe everything the goat-shaggers tell you.

 

So he was short and had advantage, so what? Granted he wasn't as good a hooker as Mohinder but he could handle the short stuff in his own way. BTW Mohiner averaged 42 as well, so he wasn't an outstanding player against pace?

 

All those who praised Vishy to the moon like Roberts, Bradman, Hadlee, Lillee, Greig were doing it for IPL contract, clearly. 

Edited by Gollum

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No one is comfortable against pace over 90 plus.It does not matter what protection you have facing 90 plus  heat from both ends.Greatest series by an Indian batsman against fast bowling would be Amarnath in 1983 against WI.

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Just now, Gollum said:

Irfan Pathan handled P@k!s better in 2006, so Irfan>>>Sachin. What the hell are you smoking man? Enough with the Imran worship...proper fraud if ever there was one. What a stupid example, that Shastri one. I can give 100 similar examples to run down greats and hype up nobodies. Why the need to bring up Pakistan again and again and again....was Imran the only quick of that era? Were the WI and Aus quicks dead when Vishy played them? 

 

Vishy faced scary bowlers like Thommo, Lillee, Holding, Roberts...1 of those 4 was damn quicker than the Pak! and 2 others were almost if not equally quick. Don't believe everything the goat-shaggers tell you.

 

So he was short and had advantage, so what? Granted he wasn't as good a hooker as Mohinder but he could handle the short stuff in his own way. BTW Mohiner averaged 42 as well, so he wasn't an outstanding player against pace?

 

All those who praised Vishy to the moon like Roberts, Bradman, Hadlee, Lillee, Greig were doing it for IPL contract, clearly. 

 

Mohinder had two extremes. He was either extremely good against them or he completely went off the boil. But two of the toughest series in the 80s were 82/83 twin tours of Pakistan/Windies because of the sustained pace attack at their peak. This is why Mohinder's returns in those two series are considered as gold standard 584/598 runs.  Mohinder took so many blows onto his body. Why do you think others failed against Lillee? Sandip patil averaged 60 in Australia against LIlle and pascoe.  Patil laid Bob willis to waste with 6 fours in an over. He dominated pace bowlers even in that era. I don't mind hyping one batsman. But don't run down others in the process.

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5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Uff finding faults in Vishy, Mohinder and at the end mentioning Srikanth's name...what can I say? Respect Cheeka for his immense contribution but even he would chuckle if he read that post. 

Do you really it is easy for someone can have a strike rate close to 100 in tests as an opener in the 80s? Patterson was destroyed in both innings by Srikkanth. The argument "he is the gold standard against pace" is based on your nostalgic perception. There were several great players against pace. Kapil dev could sweep winstaon benjamin's pacy balls for six. Demolished donald and co in SA when India was reeling at 31/6

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12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Anyway Harsh thakor's threads i don't actively participate as there is an excessive dosage of nostalgia in each of his thread. :)  Things get wildly exaggerated. 

He doesn't reply back to posts. Just disappears after putting up a question. 

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6 hours ago, Gollum said:

Inzi shouldn't be in the discussion, his attacking game against sheer pace plus bounce was poor. 

a bit confusing for you right..my country their country our country...

 

we are talking Indian batsmen from India. :p:

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54 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Irfan Pathan handled P@k!s better in 2006, so Irfan>>>Sachin. What the hell are you smoking man? Enough with the Imran worship...proper fraud if ever there was one. What a stupid example, that Shastri one. I can give 100 similar examples to run down greats and hype up nobodies. Why the need to bring up Pakistan again and again and again....was Imran the only quick of that era? Were the WI and Aus quicks dead when Vishy played them? 

 

Vishy faced scary bowlers like Thommo, Lillee, Holding, Roberts...1 of those 4 was damn well quicker than Akhtar and 2 others were almost if not equally quick. Don't believe everything the goat-shaggers tell you.

 

So he was short and had advantage, so what? Granted he wasn't as good a hooker as Mohinder but he could handle the short stuff in his own way. BTW Mohiner averaged 42 as well, so he wasn't an outstanding player against pace?

 

All those who praised Vishy to the moon like Roberts, Bradman, Hadlee, Lillee, Greig were doing it for IPL contract, clearly. 

Sachin was definitely not the greatest player of pace, he has such a heavy bat that playing cross batted shots becomes difficult, which is why he invented the upper cut. 

 

However, I believe that Laxman was greatest against raw pace. He looked so comfortable against Lee, Gillespie, Bichel and Williams when they were at their quickest. I'm not sure how he's compared with Vishy.

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48 minutes ago, Vilander said:

a bit confusing for you right..my country their country our country...

 

we are talking Indian batsmen from India. :p:

Don't know what this post adds to the thread. In any case I would very much like you to explain yourself. 

Edited by Gollum

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Voted Gavaskar 

 

Vishwanath only had two good years (consecutive years) in his career: 

 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 1978 and 31 Dec 1979 remove between 1 Jan 1978 and 31 Dec 1979 from query
Ordered by default (ascending)
dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Career averages
  Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0  
unfiltered 1969-1983 91 155 10 6080 222 41.93 14 35 10 Profile
filtered 1978-1979 9 15 0 831 145 55.40 2 7 1  
Career summary
GroupingAscending Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0  
v Australia 1978-1978 2 3 0 241 89 80.33 0 3 0 view innings
v England 1979-1979 4 7 0 341 113 48.71 1 3 0 view innings
v Pakistan 1978-1978 3 5 0 249 145 49.80 1 1 1 view innings

 

  • Aus was a weakened team iirc 
  • Don't recall Eng's strength 
  • Pak had good batting wkts. Recall the video of Kapil's debut

 

 

PS

 

year 1969   4 8 1 334 137 47.71 1 2 1 view innings
year 1971   6 11 1 263 68 26.30 0 2 2 view innings
year 1972   2 4 0 67 34 16.75 0 0 0 view innings
year 1973   3 6 1 298 113 59.60 1 1 1 view innings
year 1974   6 12 0 513 139 42.75 1 3 0 view innings
year 1975   2 4 1 255 97* 85.00 0 2 0 view innings
year 1976   11 20 2 797 112 44.27 2 5 1 view innings
year 1977   7 14 1 386 79* 29.69 0 3 0 view innings
year 1978   8 11 0 644 145 58.54 1 6 1 view innings
year 1979   17 26 2 1388 179 57.83 5 6 0 view innings
year 1980   3 5 0 58 16 11.60 0 0 0 view innings
year 1981   9 15 0 432 114 28.80 2 0 1 view innings
year 1982   9 14 1 536 222 41.23 1 4 2 view innings
year 1983   4 5 0 109 53 21.80 0 1 1 view innings

 

Edited by zen

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11 minutes ago, zen said:

Voted Gavaskar 

 

Vishwanath only had two good years (consecutive years) in his career: 

 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 1978 and 31 Dec 1979 remove between 1 Jan 1978 and 31 Dec 1979 from query
Ordered by default (ascending)
dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Career averages
  Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0  
unfiltered 1969-1983 91 155 10 6080 222 41.93 14 35 10 Profile
filtered 1978-1979 9 15 0 831 145 55.40 2 7 1  
Career summary
GroupingAscending Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0  
v Australia 1978-1978 2 3 0 241 89 80.33 0 3 0 view innings
v England 1979-1979 4 7 0 341 113 48.71 1 3 0 view innings
v Pakistan 1978-1978 3 5 0 249 145 49.80 1 1 1 view innings

 

  • Aus was a weakened team iirc 
  • Don't recall Eng's strength 
  • Pak had good batting wkts. Recall the video of Kapil's debut

 

 

Vishwanath wasn't consistent and neither was he a run machine, he was more like Laxman...a crisis man who had some valuable understated contributions almost every series not necessarily mammoth scores, and a memorable ATG knock every 2 years or so. Look at his great knocks....there is no pattern. As @Jimmy Cliff said he was an elite match-winner. 

 

And you can't compare him with Sunny or Sachin, those guys had a selfish streak in their batting (like other ATG peers) which is not a bad thing at all...those guys wanted to score many runs and break records. Vishy was not like that, where there was no danger to the team's chances and where he could remain not out he would play an extravagant shot at 30, 40 just for the thrill of it, the concept of staying not out and boosting stats was alien to his philosophy. He had only 10 NOs in 91 tests, Sunny despite being an opener had 16 NOs in 125 tests. 

Edited by Gollum

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2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Vishwanath wasn't consistent and neither was he a run machine, he was more like Laxman...a crisis man who had some valuable understated contributions almost every series not necessarily mammoth scores, and a memorable ATG knock every 2 years or so. Look at his great knocks....there is no pattern. As @Jimmy Cliff said he was an elite match-winner. 

 

And you can't compare him with Sunny or Sachin, those guys had a selfish streak in their batting (like other ATG peers) which is not a bad thing at all...those guys wanted to score many runs and break records. Vishy was not like that, where there was no danger to the team's chances and where he could remain not out he would play an extravagant shot at 30, 40 just for the thrill of it, the concept of staying not out and boosting stats was alien to his philosophy. He had only 10 NOs in 91 tests, Sunny despite being an opener had 16 NOs in 125 tests. 

Azhar made is debut in 1984. Isn't Azhar rated higher than Vishy? .... Overseas, he is far behind Gavaskar and Amarnath in the 69-83 period:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team India remove India from query
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 1969 and 1 Jan 1984 remove between 1 Jan 1969 and 1 Jan 1984 from query
Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000 remove runs scored greater than or equal to 1000 from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending 100 50 0  
SM Gavaskar 1971-1983 49 87 7 4222 221 52.77 16 19 5 investigate this query
M Amarnath 1976-1983 28 48 2 2223 120 48.32 6 14 3 investigate this query
GR Viswanath 1971-1983 43 74 3 2578 145 36.30 4 20 7 investigate this query
CPS Chauhan 1977-1981 17 31 1 1008 97 33.60 0 7 4 investigate this query
DB Vengsarkar 1976-1983 37 64 4 1939 157 32.31 2 12 6 investigate this query
N Kapil Dev 1978-1983 27 42 2 1010 100* 25.25 1 6 5 investigate this query
SMH Kirmani 1976-1983 35 54 7 1059 78 22.53 0 5 1 investigate this query

 

 

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'Viswanath the greatest batsman' - Gavaskar

 

Gundappa Viswanath: Sunil Gavaskar’s Favourite Cricketer

 

Lillee rates Vishy higher than Gavaskar

 

Quote

"I have seen situations when we all struggled against the opposition," Gavaskar began. "But then Vishy would score off the good deliveries. The rest if us, we thought we could keep out the good balls and score off the bad ones. But Vishy, he had four-five strokes to the good balls that were bowled to him."

Gavaskar, who has been ribbed about his short stature all his life, made light of the condition. "When people asked me who was the better batsman, Vishy or me, I would say without hesitation - Vishy. But I would also remind them that I was half an inch taller. When we both sat on a sofa, my feet would touch the ground, his would be half an inch above."

Quote

In a cricketing career that coincided with the great Sunil Gavaskar, it was Viswanath’s sheer brilliance with the bat that was able to polarise a fan base in two factions – Team Sunil Gavaskar and Team Gundappa Vishwanath.

Even though he was overshadowed by Sunil Gavaskar almost throughout his entire career, the Little Master has admitted it many a times that Gundappa Viswanath was the only batsman to ever cast a spell on him with his batting skill.

While debate will always continue over who was a better batsman of the two, the biggest compliment for the ‘Little Master’ from Karnataka was when Sunil Gavaskar named his son Rohan Jaiviswa after three of his favourite players. West Indian captain Rohan Kanhai lent him the first half of the name, ML Jaisimha with the middle part and finally Viswanath chipped in with ‘Viswa’.

 

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1 minute ago, Vilander said:

thread police have a new constable.

 

Fat_pak_cop_295.jpg

 

If you have nothing meaningful to post stop quoting me. Carry on with your drivel but don't tag or quote me. Last post from my side, putting you on ignore so don't bother. 

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9 minutes ago, Gollum said:

If you have nothing meaningful to post stop quoting me. Carry on with your drivel but don't tag or quote me. Last post from my side, putting you on ignore so don't bother. 

ooi tere meter kyun goom gaya ? 

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SO per stats its 

1, Dravid

2, Gavaskar

3, Amarnath

4, Tendulkar

5, Kohli.

 

Given the bowlers reputation ( of WI and Aus pace bowling then)

 

It could be 

 

1, Gavaskar / Amarnath

2, Dravid

3, Tendulkar

4, Kohli

 

 

But then it gets difficult.

 

Wasim,Waqar,Courtney,Curtly,Mcgrath,Donald,(Murli,Warne,Vettori)..

 

Wonder if Dravid and Sachin faced equally demanding bowlers.

 

 

Edited by Vilander

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fark..how lucky was India to have Dravid and Tendulkar ( and Laksman) playing together? how **** was our bowling to make nothing out of it.  Today's bowling unit would have BR'd every team inside their own homes if these two played together with them.

Edited by Vilander

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1 hour ago, Vilander said:

fark..how lucky was India to have Dravid and Tendulkar ( and Laksman) playing together? how **** was our bowling to make nothing out of it.  Today's bowling unit would have BR'd every team inside their own homes if these two played together with them.

Current line up is by far the worst batting line up against run of the mill spinners that too off spinners. As an Indian fan if there is one type of bowling i never ever bothered was, it was off spin including Murali. These guys  just suck.

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2 hours ago, Vilander said:

Away matches against Aus, Eng, WI, Pak, SA,NZ

Minow WI removed. Cutoff 2006

by total runs

Note -> One should not do analysis based on number of runs / wkts. Once the minimum criteria is defined say for e.g. 1000 / 2000 runs and 50 / 100 wkts, along with the quality of opposition and/or matches played, you would go by averages (and SR if required) 

Edited by zen

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Tendulkar was our best batsman against pace - only Gavaskar is really even in the discussion. Kohli isn't quite there defensively and Dravid wasn't quite there either despite what poyz fans tell us.

 

I also find it amusing that Vilander keeps casting aspersions on peoples' nationalities. And yet people like him run with their tails between their legs when called out on it (like that Stradler or whichever simpleton it was who got exposed the other day). 

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13 hours ago, Gollum said:

Victor Trumper had a test average of 39.

Trumper would make All Time Australia XI ahead of Hayden, Langer, Lawry, Simpson, Taylor.

#Justsaying

Greatness must show in average as well.  At times, perception drives how I see players rather than the reality.  If he was such a good batsman against pace, he should be averaging far more, at least 50-60. This is just a perception driven thread. Stats don't show that.

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2 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Tendulkar was our best batsman against pace - only Gavaskar is really even in the discussion. Kohli isn't quite there defensively and Dravid wasn't quite there either despite what poyz fans tell us.

 

I also find it amusing that Vilander keeps casting aspersions on peoples' nationalities. And yet people like him run with their tails between their legs when called out on it (like that Stradler or whichever simpleton it was who got exposed the other day). 

True

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