Nikola Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, zen said: Point is that he is failing badly 55% of the time. If he has to play the way he does, he has to be far more consistent (or bat quickly) esp. since we already have someone like Kohli. We cannot have 2 out of top 3 batting in this way Also that avg of 13 could also account for bowling friendly tracks where he is actually supposed to shield the middle order (and he is getting out early) As I said, you need to understand the nuances before coming to debates. Since you started a thread on Bhuvi and Kohli's average, I hope you are sporting enough to do a Bhuvi vs Rohit too based on this! I can understand rohit starting slow in t20s and rahul/pant or other batsman being better opener than him but in t20s even with slow starts and being most inconsistent i would keep him in my side. Link to comment
zen Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, jusarrived said: What’s India’s win percentage when he fails ? That 55% of games since 2016 Since 2016, Ind has won 40 of the 58 games involving Sharma. In 32 of those 58 games, Rohit has scored less than 50. Of the 32 games where Rohit has scored less than 50, Ind has won 19 (59%) One can argue that Rohit getting out early could improve India's win %. And that he scores mainly on batting friendly surfaces where as a team we could have done well too if he had failed .... Therefore, puts a question mark on his match winner status Stan AF and Nikola 1 1 Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) When Rohit scores 50+, India win 36 out of 53 games against non-minnows, a success rate of 67%. For Kohli, it is 54 wins out of 78 at 69%. For Dhoni, it is 41 wins out of 68 at 60%. For Dhawan, it is 28 wins out of 35 at 80%. If we don't count WI and SL (which is sort of unfair to Dhoni since he played stronger SL sides in the mid-noughties but still), when these guys score 50+, For Rohit, it is 20 wins out of 31 at 64%. For Kohli, it is 26 wins out of 44 at 59%. For Dhoni, it is 24 wins out of 42 at 57%. For Dhawan, it is 16 wins of 20 at 80%. Make of it what you will. PS: Not counting ties/NR etc Edited February 17, 2019 by Jimmy Cliff Number 1 Link to comment
jusarrived Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, zen said: Since 2016, Ind has won 40 of the 58 games involving Sharma. In 32 of those 58 games, Rohit has scored less than 50. Of the 32 games where Rohit has scored less than 50, Ind has won 19 (59%) One can argue that Rohit getting out early could improve India's win %. And that he scores mainly on batting friendly surfaces where as a team we could have done well too if he had failed .... Therefore, puts a question mark on his match winner status @Nikola what do you have to say about this ? Am not a stats guy , but was expecting this . The whole theory of him playing slowly for the team is nonsense . We do better when he gets out early and we don’t win much when he scores either . Link to comment
Jimmy Cliff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Counting match-winning scores of 50+ against the Top 7 i.e. SENA/PAK/SL/WI, Out of 54 scores of 50+ in a match-winning cause, 28 of them are against WI/SL for Kohli i.e. 51%. Rohit has 16 out of 36, i.e. 44%. Dhawan has 12 out of 28, i.e. 42%. Dhoni has 17 out of 41 i.e. 41%. Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, jusarrived said: @Nikola what do you have to say about this ? Am not a stats guy , but was expecting this . The whole theory of him playing slowly for the team is nonsense . We do better when he gets out early and we don’t win much when he scores either . Come on you have stretched it too far now. There is impact which is seen in a player. See recent west indies series where even virat's ton didn't help us win match. It was Rohit's two century and 1 not out 60 odd run which helped to win. In Aus 1st odi it wasn't his fault that all failed together. Stats don't tell everything. Edited February 17, 2019 by Nikola Link to comment
kosingh Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 This is being over thought. Rohit's SR is a problem but not a drastic problem. It is a problem because the middle order is incapable of accelerating after a steady start to the team's innings. I trust the openers to up their run rate by 0.5 to 1 run an over than I trust Dhoni and Rayudu to be able to up their RR by that much. philcric 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, zen said: and how you do in PP can also set the tone for the game on batting friendly tracks .... for e.g. if you walk in at 140/2 after 20 overs, you know that you have to score at a good SR. On the other hand, if you walk in at 100-110/2, ticking at 5 or so for the next 10-15 overs, you may think you are doing decently (when you could have accelerated a bit more) That's what I mean by domino effect - also results in fielding captain having to use up more of his "good" bowler overs, make them shift to defensive fields etc. In test cricket, openers job is to "see off" the new ball, making it easier for the middle order to come in and capitalize. In today's ODI cricket, openers job is to set the tone, and ATTACK the bowling, setting the platform for the maximum possible TEAM total. In that context a 28 ball 45 is equally, if not more valuable, than a 75 ball 60. But it means that top 3 have to bat unselfish and suffer a dip in their batting averages, and pass up the chances to rack up more centuries, 50s etc. Why should Indian team do that, when the top order batsmen who notch those landmarks, are the ones who are raking in literally millions of dollars in add-on income from endorsements? They are right up there anyway in terms of winning %. I had high hopes for this batting tactical switch when VK took over captaincy, I thought MS was the reason behind the conservative batting method. But now I'm cynical. mani sha and zen 1 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 hours ago, kosingh said: It is a problem because the middle order is incapable of accelerating after a steady start to the team's innings. Middle order is asked to "accelerate" as soon as they get to the crease, with one extra boundary fielder. While the top order gets the luxury of getting their "eye in", wasting the scoring opportunity of a 3 outfielder 10 over chunk. That's 20% of the innings. They should be asked to score 20% of what is considered a par total in the conditions - Actually more than par, given the advantage of field restrictions. If we consider 320 par for a quality batting side like India, on normal "flat" conditions, that would translate to 64 runs. Our team averages around 45. This is a glaring problem for our team. A solvable one. But one that requires sacrifice and team-first mentality. I am not holding my breath. Link to comment
zen Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, sandeep said: Middle order is asked to "accelerate" as soon as they get to the crease, with one extra boundary fielder. While the top order gets the luxury of getting their "eye in", wasting the scoring opportunity of a 3 outfielder 10 over chunk. That's 20% of the innings. They should be asked to score 20% of what is considered a par total in the conditions - Actually more than par, given the advantage of field restrictions. If we consider 320 par for a quality batting side like India, on normal "flat" conditions, that would translate to 64 runs. Our team averages around 45. This is a glaring problem for our team. A solvable one. But one that requires sacrifice and team-first mentality. I am not holding my breath. On good batting surfaces, it is good to get +1 RPO of the par score in PP. 320 is 6.4 RPO so in PP we should try to be around 75 Edited February 18, 2019 by zen Link to comment
sandeep Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, zen said: On good batting surfaces, it is good to get +1 RPO of the par score in PP. 320 is 6.4 RPO so in PP we should try to be around 75 I'd celebrate like a madman for anything above -60 - i.e. average across a meaningful sample of games. [Edit: And I actually agree with your logic about +1 RR in the power-play, I was just referring to the lower benchmark as part of making a stronger argument. ] Seriously, Indian batting talent and skill is undeniably the best in the world. How are these quality batsmen being out-scored by England's hacks? Answer - they are both playing completely different games. India's top order chases centuries. England's openers are primarily tasked with targeting 70+ in the 1st 10. That's what enables them consistently go past 350 on a regular basis. Side by side, its like looking at a BMW and a Fiat - and seeing the Fiat out-run the BMW day in day out. Edited February 18, 2019 by sandeep mani sha and zen 1 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Indian middle order lost its solidity after the exit of Yuvraj, Raina, old Dhoni combo. Raina/Yuvraj could be used as 5th bowler. You could say Pandya has replaced Raina. But 4,5,6 spot is not that great. Link to comment
SK_IH Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Rohit is non issue in ODIs really. He can get on your nerves with his slow starts while chasing big scores but he usually converts and a beast when set. He has lots to prove in the upcoming WC as well, he needs one ousttanding ICC tournament to be regarded as one of the best ever in this format Link to comment
ShoonyaSifar Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 9 hours ago, jusarrived said: I don’t agree with the assumption that India wins when he scores as well . 2500 of his 3200 runs in 58 matches have come in 40 of those matches we've won since 1st Jan 2016 (Rohit's peak ODI form). Has matched Virat almost equally in this period. Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said: 2500 of his 3200 runs in 58 matches have come in 40 of those matches we've won since 1st Jan 2016 (Rohit's peak ODI form). Has matched Virat almost equally in this period. Doesn't matter if he scores 5000 runs or becomes bradman. He fails in 58% of matches and scores at strike rate of 65 when he fails to convert big. sandeep 1 Link to comment
mani sha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 12 hours ago, Nikola said: Dude you want someone like roy or guptill who will fluke boundaries against trundlers and score quick fire fifties. Rohit is 2nd ranked odi batsman for reason. You can discredit him in t20 for his method but in odis he is perfectly fine. Don't tell me you want pant to replace him who has done nothing than slogging every single ball. Rohit & Dhawan both have scored more runs than kohli in 2013 ct, 2015 worldcup, 2017 ct & both were top scorer in asia cup too. Better shut up now. a 30 ball 35 more valuable then a 80 ball 70 Indias best one day team was one led by sehwag and gambhir - brisk starts followed by stable middle and strong hitters at end . now its slow start / poor if ball swings , unstable middle and weak hitters at end team management is doing a good job by getting rahul pant shankar and pandya in- they will give a good hitting at end . but just look at what hapened to karthick in t20 - i believe he batted very well but was left too much to do by Talunt sooner india looses world cup better . my openers are shaw dhawan and rahul anyday over rohit Rohit is a liability in odi -when ball swings his plus point is pitches in aussie and sa - his strike rate is higher when bowlers bowl short and india wins such matches if swinging pitch or anyone who will raise his left arm to bowl - he is a walking duck Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, mani sha said: a 30 ball 35 more valuable then a 80 ball 70 Indias best one day team was one led by sehwag and gambhir - brisk starts followed by stable middle and strong hitters at end . now its slow start / poor if ball swings , unstable middle and weak hitters at end team management is doing a good job by getting rahul pant shankar and pandya in- they will give a good hitting at end . but just look at what hapened to karthick in t20 - i believe he batted very well but was left too much to do by Talunt sooner india looses world cup better . my openers are shaw dhawan and rahul anyday over rohit Rohit is a liability in odi -when ball swings his plus point is pitches in aussie and sa - his strike rate is higher when bowlers bowl short and india wins such matches if swinging pitch or anyone who will raise his left arm to bowl - he is a walking duck You are taking as if he only struggles when ball swings. Tell anyone to open and if it swings they will struggle. Sehwag and gambhir have struggled too. Gambhir wasn't attacking he played more like rohit and dhawan plays like sehwag (big slower than sehwag) Link to comment
Stan AF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 This thread reeks of absolute nonsense. CG and Moochad 1 1 Link to comment
Stan AF Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 People who are complaining about Rohit strike rate are conveniently forgetting the root cause of the problem which is the Indian middle order. Indian MO is brittle as hell and the top order is doing all the heavy lifting. Before asking anyone to up the strike rate ask the middle order to do some heavy lifting. You can start that by getting rid off Dhoni. Link to comment
ShoonyaSifar Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, mani sha said: a 30 ball 35 more valuable then a 80 ball 70 Indias best one day team was one led by sehwag and gambhir - brisk starts followed by stable middle and strong hitters at end . now its slow start / poor if ball swings , unstable middle and weak hitters at end team management is doing a good job by getting rahul pant shankar and pandya in- they will give a good hitting at end . but just look at what hapened to karthick in t20 - i believe he batted very well but was left too much to do by Talunt sooner india looses world cup better . my openers are shaw dhawan and rahul anyday over rohit Rohit is a liability in odi -when ball swings his plus point is pitches in aussie and sa - his strike rate is higher when bowlers bowl short and india wins such matches if swinging pitch or anyone who will raise his left arm to bowl - he is a walking duck And yet we score more 300s now and win much more than we have ever done in our history, this despite having a woeful middle order since 2015! Also, let's apply the same level of analysis for Sehwag. In 127/245 innings, 52% of his total innings Sehwag scored 1215 runs@10 with a SR of 74. Extend this further, Sehwag scored less than 50 runs in 192/245 innings, 80% of his innings. See how you can twist data to show whatever you want to. Clarke and Number 1 1 Link to comment
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