vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 INdia's woeful middle order and non-existent lower order means top order has to mix caution with aggression. Creating imaginary stability in the middle by pushing the better players down the order always backfired. 2007 world cup was an example. Sending high risk openers will put us at more disadvantage. England has Root, Morgan, Butler, Stokes in the middle. The top order can throw their bat around and be 0 for 3 and England can still post a total of 280 plus. India has missed the bus of providing the stability in the middle by not giving more chances to youngsters in the last 2 years. India's best bet is not compromising on bowling. If India has to get somewhere in the world cup bowling has to click. We cannot prepare ourselves for scenarios where opposition score 330 runs. In a world cup 330 chase is hard even against Zimbabwe. philcric 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: INdia's woeful middle order and non-existent lower order means top order has to mix caution with aggression. Creating imaginary stability in the middle by pushing the better players down the order always backfired. 2007 world cup was an example. Sending high risk openers will put us at more disadvantage. England has Root, Morgan, Butler, Stokes in the middle. The top order can throw their bat around and be 0 for 3 and England can still post a total of 280 plus. India has missed the bus of providing the stability in the middle by not giving more chances to youngsters in the last 2 years. India's best bet is not compromising on bowling. If India has to get somewhere in the world cup bowling has to click. We cannot prepare ourselves for scenarios where opposition score 330 runs. In a world cup 330 chase is hard even against Zimbabwe. We need to set totals too. Par scores are expected to be 300+, so we definitely have to prepare for various scenarios .... Other sides would be at full strength so it may not be easy for Ind Why would we be at a risk by opening with a younger player, who does not carry a high price on his wkt? And when you think the MO is weak Moreover, if he clicks, he reduces pressure. If he fails, we still have experienced players Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, zen said: We need to set totals too. Par scores are expected to be 300+, so we definitely have to prepare for various scenarios .... Other sides would be at full strength so it may not be easy for Ind Why would we be at a risk by opening with a younger player, who does not carry a high price on his wkt? And when you think the MO is weak Moreover, if he clicks, he reduces pressure. If he fails, we still have experienced players Dhawan/Rohit partnership is one of the best in ODI history by any measure. Separating will be counter-productive. India wins matches because of them not loses. Rohit as a middle order failed. That is why as a last measure they pushed him up the order. Even with Mumbai Indians he didn't exactly do well in the middle order. Rohit is probably the only one who can go really big. Sending him at 23/2 or 30/2 mean he will become even slower than normal. Even if Pant comes off he is not going to score 150 or 200 like Rohit sharma. He probably will score a quick 30 and get out something he can do in the backend as well against lesser bowlers rather than against Boult, Starc, Cummins, Hasan Ali. India has a problem with accelerating against spinners. That is where he could be useful. Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said: Dhawan/Rohit partnership is one of the best in ODI history by any measure. Separating will be counter-productive. India wins matches because of them not loses. Rohit as a middle order failed. That is why as a last measure they pushed him up the order. Even with Mumbai Indians he didn't exactly do well in the middle order. Rohit is probably the only one who can go really big. Sending him at 23/2 or 30/2 mean he will become even slower than normal. Even if Pant comes off he is not going to score 150 or 200 like Rohit sharma. He probably will score a quick 30 and get out something he can do in the backend as well against lesser bowlers rather than against Boult, Starc, Cummins, Hasan Ali. India has a problem with accelerating against spinners. That is where he could be useful. I think I addressed these concerns in the OP Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 32 minutes ago, zen said: I think I addressed these concerns in the OP Even for Delhi he batted at no.5. There is no track record of him doing well as an opener in the 50 over format. So we blindly have to hope he comes off. For a weak batting side with a long tail every single wicket is valuable. Who will determine a pitch is 330 pitch or 360 pitch. England will play like that even on a 200 par score wicket because they can afford to lose wickets because they know Moeen Ali bats at 8, Woakes at 9, Rashid at 10. We have Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep, Chahal. Do they inspire any confidence? We have Biriyani, Dhoni, Jadhav in the middle. Do they inspire any confidence? Certainly not. Imagine India doing that on a tough wicket and lose a couple of wickets upfront and Rohit and Dhawan scratching around. India has far more things to worry about than posting 360 plus total. For one thing we don't need such a total. Only England needs it because their bowling is crappy. Link to comment
flamy Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 We need to play to our strengths. I dunno why everyone is trying to imitate Eng. Our strength is our bowling. Link to comment
beetle Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Too late to put so much pressure on Pant. Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Even for Delhi he batted at no.5. There is no track record of him doing well as an opener in the 50 over format. So we blindly have to hope he comes off. For a weak batting side with a long tail every single wicket is valuable. Who will determine a pitch is 330 pitch or 360 pitch. England will play like that even on a 200 par score wicket because they can afford to lose wickets because they know Moeen Ali bats at 8, Woakes at 9, Rashid at 10. We have Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep, Chahal. Do they inspire any confidence? We have Biriyani, Dhoni, Jadhav in the middle. Do they inspire any confidence? Certainly not. Imagine India doing that on a tough wicket and lose a couple of wickets upfront and Rohit and Dhawan scratching around. India has far more things to worry about than posting 360 plus total. For one thing we don't need such a total. Only England needs it because their bowling is crappy. I see what you are saying but if the par scores are 300+, the team will eventually have to use him in the top order .... Much like they did in T20s in NZ. It was a different format but it shows that if scores are high, the team may use him. In fact, I believe he is in the squad because of TM’s recommendation Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, flamy said: We need to play to our strengths. I dunno why everyone is trying to imitate Eng. Our strength is our bowling. Bowling is a strength but even WI and Aus needed to bat well. It is about trying to get the best out of each department Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, beetle said: Too late to put so much pressure on Pant. I think he may like it. Unlike in tests, people line up to bat at the top in LOIs Link to comment
gakgupta Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 He is not great with moving ball.... If dhoni is not playing, then may be.... we can try it out... Laaloo 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 FYI, Something that I posted somewhere "Looked in to some latest numbers to account for current trend since 2018. Eng in Eng Batting First PP 79/0, score 481 (vs Aus) PP 71/1, score 342 (vs Aus) PP 69/0, score 322 (vs Ind) PP 71/0, score 268 (vs Ind) Won 3, Lost 1 Chasing (Usually dictated by RRR; not accounting for low scoring games) PP 76/0; score 314 (vs Aus) PP 78/2; score 260 in 45th over (vs Ind) Eng won all games chasing (even the 2 low scoring ones) So the latest is avg of 74 in PP (when Eng set or chased 260 or more). Wkts lost avg is just 0.5 .... 260 is a relatively low score too but used it so we have "enough" data points. Even when chasing 260 odd, Eng went at almost 8 an over in PP PS And yesterday in WI, they racked up 88 in PP!" Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, zen said: FYI, Something that I posted somewhere "Looked in to some latest numbers to account for current trend since 2018. Eng in Eng Batting First PP 79/0, score 481 (vs Aus) PP 71/1, score 342 (vs Aus) PP 69/0, score 322 (vs Ind) PP 71/0, score 268 (vs Ind) Won 3, Lost 1 Chasing (Usually dictated by RRR; not accounting for low scoring games) PP 76/0; score 314 (vs Aus) PP 78/2; score 260 in 45th over (vs Ind) Eng won all games chasing (even the 2 low scoring ones) So the latest is avg of 74 in PP (when Eng set or chased 260 or more). Wkts lost avg is just 0.5 .... 260 is a relatively low score too but used it so we have "enough" data points. Even when chasing 260 odd, Eng went at almost 8 an over in PP PS And yesterday in WI, they racked up 88 in PP!" 1 You have to see who they were facing on those 4 occasions. NOt sure about Australia. But India fielded their second string pace bowlers. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 India possibly will face England just once. Let us not completely change our combination, dynamics just for one team. England on surface looks stronger. THey will fall apart in good bowling conditions flamy 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: You have to see who they were facing on those 4 occasions. NOt sure about Australia. But India fielded their second string pace bowlers. Eng RPO is 6.4 in Eng since 2016. Below is how are openers went In 2018, Rohit played 3 ODIs in Eng. Below is how he went: Failed in 2 games Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team England Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Runs scored less than or equal to 99 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 201 195 31 7808 264 47.60 8840 88.32 22 39 12 681 215 Profile filtered 2 2 0 17 15 8.50 44 38.63 0 0 0 2 0 Clicked in one game, where Ind was chasing 260 odd (and other batsmen clicked too) Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team England Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Runs scored greater than or equal to 100 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 201 195 31 7808 264 47.60 8840 88.32 22 39 12 681 215 Profile filtered 1 1 1 137 137* - 114 120.17 1 0 0 15 4 While Dhawan provided useful starts in all 3 games (and also played with a high SR) Records type batting analysis [change type] View innings by innings list [change view] Opposition team England Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Ordered by start date (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 123 122 7 5178 137 45.02 5539 93.48 15 27 4 642 64 Profile filtered 3 3 0 120 44 40.00 106 113.20 0 0 0 21 0 Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said: India possibly will face England just once. Let us not completely change our combination, dynamics just for one team. England on surface looks stronger. THey will fall apart in good bowling conditions Since 2016 below is how teams have done vs Eng in Eng View overall figures [change view] Opposition team England Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2016 Totals in terms of batting team Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 2 Ordered by average runs per six balls (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS South Africa 2017-2017 3 1 2 0 0 0.500 41.72 6.06 3 328 267 West Indies 2017-2017 5 0 4 0 1 0.000 36.43 6.03 4 356 245 Australia 2017-2018 6 0 6 0 0 0.000 27.17 5.82 6 310 205 Pakistan 2016-2017 6 2 4 0 0 0.500 36.95 5.58 6 304 251 Sri Lanka 2016-2016 5 0 3 1 1 0.000 32.37 5.51 5 305 202 India 2018-2018 3 1 2 0 0 0.500 38.05 5.42 3 269 236 Ireland 2017-2017 2 0 2 0 0 0.000 18.45 4.66 2 243 126 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, zen said: Since 2016 below is how teams have done vs Eng in Eng View overall figures [change view] Opposition team England Home or away away (home of opposition) Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2016 Totals in terms of batting team Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 2 Ordered by average runs per six balls (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS South Africa 2017-2017 3 1 2 0 0 0.500 41.72 6.06 3 328 267 West Indies 2017-2017 5 0 4 0 1 0.000 36.43 6.03 4 356 245 Australia 2017-2018 6 0 6 0 0 0.000 27.17 5.82 6 310 205 Pakistan 2016-2017 6 2 4 0 0 0.500 36.95 5.58 6 304 251 Sri Lanka 2016-2016 5 0 3 1 1 0.000 32.37 5.51 5 305 202 India 2018-2018 3 1 2 0 0 0.500 38.05 5.42 3 269 236 Ireland 2017-2017 2 0 2 0 0 0.000 18.45 4.66 2 243 126 Even with second string team we won a game. But Australia lost all 6, West Indies didn't win any, SA lost 2 as well. SO the problem is not their batting. Problem is their bowling. Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Even with second string team we won a game. But Australia lost all 6, West Indies didn't win any, SA lost 2 as well. SO the problem is not their batting. Problem is their bowling. Our problem is batting Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Recently when ENgland toured they played 3 matches India 381, England 366 India won England 350 India 351/7 India won England 321 India 314/9 lost None of the time INdia depended on their openers. Jadhav, pandya, Yuvraj singh, Dhoni, Kohli were the main run getters. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=11353;type=series Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, zen said: Our problem is batting Yes. middle order is the problem. Not top order. If you look at ICC tournaments in England in the last 4 or 5 years Dhawan/Rohit/Kohli are the highest run getters by country mile. Nobody even comes close to them. Link to comment
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