Try Pant as an opener

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Recently when ENgland toured they played 3 matches

 

India 381,  England 366  India won

England 350 India 351/7 India won

England 321 India 314/9 lost

 

None of the time INdia depended on their openers. Jadhav, pandya, Yuvraj singh, Dhoni, Kohli were the main run getters.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=11353;type=series

So then you should not mind if we try to improve the opening

 

(appears as if you have lost track) 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Yes. middle order is the problem. Not top order. If you look at ICC tournaments in England in the last 4 or 5 years Dhawan/Rohit/Kohli are the highest run getters by country mile. Nobody even comes close to them.

Top order (rohit) is a problem in ICC and world events 

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, zen said:

So then you should not mind if we try to improve the opening

 

(appears as if you have lost track) 

I mean your theory of scoring 80 is a must is simply not true. If you are good enough to score 120 in the last 10 you can always make up. If you score 100 in the first 10 and score only 50 in the last 10 what is the point? India's strength is start conservatively and pick up the pace after 25th over. England can keep on attacking till they lose their 10th wicket. 

 

India has a grand total of 3 world class ODI batsmen in this line up. Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan. Everyone else is a lottery. They may come off. may not come off more often than not. England has about atleast 9 hitters in their line up. Everybody can clear the rope comfortably, everybody can play fearless cricket since they know they have the depth. We simply cannot try to convert this sorry batting line up into English batting line up with cosmetic changes like sending pant to open. It will utterly backfire. India's best bet Rohit sharma playing as long as he can and Dhawan supporting him. India has no Sehwag, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Gambhir in their line up. Even among them only Sehwag and Tendulkar could start off quicker than the current two.  Despite all that Sehwag never did that well in the one dayers. 

 

World no.1 Kohli

WOrld no.2 Rohit

World no.10 Dhawan

World no.17 Dhoni

 

World no.4 ROot

World no.12 Bairstow

 

Others are ranked over 20.

 

 

It tells you England players are wildly inconsistent. They somehow click because they have larger group of batsmen who can throw their wicket away from time and time without hurting the team as someone else is there to step up. India has literally nobody else.

[vvvslaxman]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

Top order (rohit) is a problem in ICC and world events 

yes i am talking about ICC evens in England. These three are head and shoulders above everyone else 

[vvvslaxman]

Two CTs happened in ENgland in the last 6 year

 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I mean your theory of scoring 80 is a must is simply not true. If you are good enough to score 120 in the last 10 you can always make up. If you score 100 in the first 10 and score only 50 in the last 10 what is the point? India's strength is start conservatively and pick up the pace after 25th over. England can keep on attacking till they lose their 10th wicket. 

 

India has a grand total of 3 world class ODI batsmen in this line up. Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan. Everyone else is a lottery. They may come off. may not come off more often than not. England has about atleast 9 hitters in their line up. Everybody can clear the rope comfortably, everybody can play fearless cricket since they know they have the depth. We simply cannot try to convert this sorry batting line up into English batting line up with cosmetic changes like sending pant to open. It will utterly backfire. India's best bet Rohit sharma playing as long as he can and Dhawan supporting him. India has no Sehwag, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Gambhir in their line up. Even among them only Sehwag and Tendulkar could start off quicker than the current two.  Despite all that Sehwag never did that well in the one dayers. 

 

World no.1 Kohli

WOrld no.2 Rohit

World no.10 Dhawan

World no.17 Dhoni

 

World no.4 ROot

World no.12 Bairstow

 

Others are ranked over 20.

 

 

It tells you England players are wildly inconsistent. They somehow click because they have larger group of batsmen who can throw their wicket away from time and time without hurting the team as someone else is there to step up. India has literally nobody else.

 

It is not a theory. But an assessment based on recent trend to get the best out of our batting .... We can even get by scoring 20 runs in first 10. Does that mean we should? 

 

 

[zen]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

yes i am talking about ICC evens in England. These three are head and shoulders above everyone else 

 

Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Two CTs happened in ENgland in the last 6 year

 

On one hand you want to complain about Eng doing well vs Ind's 2nd bowlers (and that too when Ind had no options) and on the other hand, you are posting stats padded up by playing "less fancied teams" (and when Ind played better teams)  

 

SENA plays well in SENA. Top 3 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Host country England

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or World Cup

Batting position between 1 and 3

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 3 of 3

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
S Dhawan	2013-2017	3	3	0	223	114	74.33	201	110.94	1	1	0	26	3
V Kohli	2013-2017	3	3	1	150	76*	75.00	176	85.22	0	1	0	13	2
RG Sharma	2013-2017	3	3	0	86	65	28.66	115	74.78	0	1	0	10	2

 

So you want to open with Rohit Sharma to flop vs strong sides and pad up stats vs teams that are not expected to do as well as expected! 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

It is not a theory. But an assessment based on recent trend to get the best out of our batting .... We can even get by scoring 20 runs in first 10. Does that mean we should? 

 

 

Yes. But it is applicable only for team with a bit of depth. not us.

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Yes. But it is applicable only for team with a bit of depth. not us.

You mean switching players around reduces depth?

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

On one hand you want to complain about Eng doing well vs Ind's 2nd bowlers (and that too when Ind had no options) and on the other hand, you are posting stats padded up by playing "less fancied teams" (and when Ind played better teams)  

 

SENA plays well in SENA. Top 3 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Host country England

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or World Cup

Batting position between 1 and 3

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 3 of 3

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
S Dhawan	2013-2017	3	3	0	223	114	74.33	201	110.94	1	1	0	26	3
V Kohli	2013-2017	3	3	1	150	76*	75.00	176	85.22	0	1	0	13	2
RG Sharma	2013-2017	3	3	0	86	65	28.66	115	74.78	0	1	0	10	2

 

So you want to open with Rohit Sharma to flop vs strong sides and pad up stats vs teams that are not expected to do as well as expected! 

 

 

That is exactly what ICC tournament is about. We will face one team at a time. Not ENlgnad 5 times. We reached both final won once. What did mighty England do? Flunked against Pakistan. Did you see the strike rate of Ben stokes/ It was something like 50 in that match. 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

That is exactly what ICC tournament is about. We will face one team at a time. Not ENlgnad 5 times. We reached both final won once. What did mighty England do? Flunked against Pakistan. Did you see the strike rate of Ben stokes/ It was something like 50 in that match. 

That is where Rohit is a liability .... and one of the reasons for this thread .... I hope you read the OP (where PoV is explained)  and not just the title

 

PS and would have saved you time on doing stats as well 

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, zen said:

You mean switching players around reduces depth?

Untested players. Roy/Bairstow/Hales have been doing the job for a very long time. Pant has more starting trouble than Rohit sharma. Look at his T20 international performances. He swiped and missed a lot for a while before connecting one or two. In IPL even Rayudu was a mighty opener. Pant is not a fully evolved stroke player like Sehwag or Yuvraj or Raina. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, zen said:

That is where Rohit is a liability .... and one of the reasons for this thread .... I hope you read the OP (where PoV is explained)  and not just the title

Did you see Rohit's 137 not out against England chasing 268 in 40 overs? WHy is he a liability? You think Rishab pant can do that?  Rohit can score a 100 in 35 balls.  HE has the rare gift of accelerating at the end. HE doesn't need to go at full tilt at the top. Rohit, Kohli, Dhawan if these three are gone, that is pretty much it for India. Let us not forget that.

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Untested players. Roy/Bairstow/Hales have been doing the job for a very long time. Pant has more starting trouble than Rohit sharma. Look at his T20 international performances. He swiped and missed a lot for a while before connecting one or two. In IPL even Rayudu was a mighty opener. Pant is not a fully evolved stroke player like Sehwag or Yuvraj or Raina. 

Read the OP. It is still ok as he is a low value wkt relatively (and you said MO is weak) and we still have others if he fails .... And as shown vs stronger sides Rohit has a poor record too 

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Did you see Rohit's 137 not out against England chasing 268 in 40 overs? WHy is he a liability? You think Rishab pant can do that?  Rohit can score a 100 in 35 balls.  HE has the rare gift of accelerating at the end. HE doesn't need to go at full tilt at the top. Rohit, Kohli, Dhawan if these three are gone, that is pretty much it for India. Let us not forget that.

His conversation rate (and already posted Eng numbers?!). Dhawan provided more consistent starts (again read the OP, where it mentions conversation rates as well) 

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Read the OP. It is still ok as he is a low value wkt relatively (and you said MO is weak) and we still have others if he fails .... And as shown vs stronger sides Rohit has a poor record too 

You cannot afford to have a batsman that is ready to sacrifice his wicket just to score 15 runs more in the first 10. Rohit can make up in 2 overs later. India has 4 solid tailendrers who can do jack. SO it is upto 7. That 7 has Rayudu, Jadhav, Dhoni, Pandya. None of them are reliable. Your entire theory is based on ENgland's batting line up. You only compare the top order of ENgland with India's top order. You should compare middle and lower order as well. If Pant fails in 4 or 5 innings what then? Rohit has to go even slower just to make there is no collapse. Already we are in a situation where Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli have to bat right till 45th over to have a decent total.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

His conversation rate (and already posted Eng numbers?!). Dhawan provided more consistent starts (again read the OP, where it mentions conversation rates as well) 

Check Rohit's middle order stat as well and compare with him as an opener. Rohit career turned around and he is no.2 ODI batsman in the world because he started opening.

[vvvslaxman]

Rohit's career stat by batting position. Unless you suggest 'Let us drop Rohit' lol we cannot even remotely entertain the idea of pushing ROhit down the order.

 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You cannot afford to have a batsman that is ready to sacrifice his wicket just to score 15 runs more in the first 10. Rohit can make up in 2 overs later. India has 4 solid tailendrers who can do jack. SO it is upto 7. That 7 has Rayudu, Jadhav, Dhoni, Pandya. None of them are reliable. Your entire theory is based on ENgland's batting line up. You only compare the top order of ENgland with India's top order. You should compare middle and lower order as well. If Pant fails in 4 or 5 innings what then? Rohit has to go even slower just to make there is no collapse. Already we are in a situation where Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli have to bat right till 45th over to have a decent total.

Even Rohit is not reliable .... and makes up vs less fancied sides as seen in ICC events 

 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Check Rohit's middle order stat as well and compare with him as an opener. Rohit career turned around and he is no.2 ODI batsman in the world because he started opening.

Everything as been done (and in OP, there is a point on that too under "But Rohit struggles in MO"). This thread is the last one I started after many on this subject 

 

I am surprised by your posts 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, zen said:

Even Rohit is not reliable .... and makes up vs less fancied sides as seen in ICC events 

 

 

 

 

Everything as been done (and in OP, there is a point on that too under "But Rohit struggles in MO"). This thread is the last one I started after many on this subject 

 

I am surprised by your posts 

 

Everything is done?  Then why do you still think he would do great in the middle order or Pant will do well in the top order? Pant didn't even open for Delhi. What are his credentials as a batsman in the limited overs? He has trouble rotating the strike. Far too many dot balls. Far too many misses. Far too many flashy shots like reverse paddle against seamers. There is no strong evidence to support Pant will bat like Jason roy or Alex hales or Johonny Bairstow against new ball.