zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Rohit's career stat by batting position. Unless you suggest 'Let us drop Rohit' lol we cannot even remotely entertain the idea of pushing ROhit down the order. Read the OP to save yourself some time (all the stats you are posting I am aware of those. The discussion starts after considering those ) Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said: Everything is done? Then why do you still think he would do great in the middle order or Pant will do well in the top order? Pant didn't even open for Delhi. What are his credentials as a batsman in the limited overs? He has trouble rotating the strike. Far too many dot balls. Far too many misses. Far too many flashy shots like reverse paddle against seamers. There is no strong evidence to support Pant will bat like Jason roy or Alex hales or Johonny Bairstow against new ball. a. He has done well vs strong bowling sides b. Opening is a good platform for someone like him in LOIs (people line up to open) c. Pressure is less on him at 0/0 And then you spoke about Rohit, who probably didn't open too, doing well as an opener Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I like Pant. A smart guy. Surprisingly has a solid defense. But when it comes to stroke play he is not quiet there. He still relies a lot on slogging to accelerate. He looks ungainly when he does that. Besides you really think Pant will have instruction from team management "DOn't worry about losing your wicket you just go swing without a care in the world". Not at all with 4 tailenders. SK_IH and flamy 2 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, vvvslaxman said: I like Pant. A smart guy. Surprisingly has a solid defense. But when it comes to stroke play he is not quiet there. He still relies a lot on slogging to accelerate. He looks ungainly when he does that. Besides you really think Pant will have instruction from team management "DOn't worry about losing your wicket you just go swing without a care in the world". Not at all with 4 tailenders. Why does he have to swing? His normal cricket is good enough for him to be relatively explosive for Ind and get of the block quickly? Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, zen said: a. He has done well vs strong bowling sides b. Opening is a good platform for someone like him in LOIs (people line up to open) c. Pressure is less on him at 0/0 And then you spoke about Rohit, who probably didn't open too, doing well as an opener a. In Tests b. Solution is not to drop your no.2 batsman down the order and experiment to see if it will work or not c. For him no pressure. But for others there will be a lot of pressure if he can't rotate strike and feed it to Dhawan or if he gets out for a duck in the first over playing an ugly shot. None of these reasons are remotely convincing. Just because Rohit clicked as an opener it doesn't mean every tom dick and harry will click. Why not Dhoni, why not Rayudu Why not Jadhav lol we can keep going. flamy 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, zen said: Why does he have to swing? His normal cricket is good enough for him to be relatively explosive for Ind and get of the block quickly? No. I see you are not following his stroke play much. His normal cricketing shots invariably finds the fielder. To hit boundaries he relies on aggressive fieldset or slogging. He doesn't have the range quiet yet. If you atleast suggest Shaw i would agree 10%. Pant? No way. flamy 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Pant, Rahul, Iyer, Gill all these guys should have played T20 in NZ. Idiots were playing Dhawan, Rohit, Dhoni, Vijay shankar. flamy 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: a. In Tests b. Solution is not to drop your no.2 batsman down the order and experiment to see if it will work or not c. For him no pressure. But for others there will be a lot of pressure if he can't rotate strike and feed it to Dhawan or if he gets out for a duck in the first over playing an ugly shot. None of these reasons are remotely convincing. Just because Rohit clicked as an opener it doesn't mean every tom dick and harry will click. Why not Dhoni, why not Rayudu Why not Jadhav lol we can keep going. Rohit has been a liability vs strong teams in ICC events Pant is identified as a key talent for Ind (and the TM played him in top order in T20s as well) 13 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: No. I see you are not following his stroke play much. His normal cricketing shots invariably finds the fielder. To hit boundaries he relies on aggressive fieldset or slogging. He doesn't have the range quiet yet. If you atleast suggest Shaw i would agree 10%. Pant? No way. It is ok if he fails (Rohit is a liability anyways vs strong sides). We still have others who can do well in the batting order after him. If he succeeds, Ind will win more matches (or even the tourney) Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, zen said: Rohit has been a liability vs strong teams in ICC events Pant is identified as a key talent for Ind (and the TM played him in top order in T20s as well) It is ok if he fails (Rohit is a liability anyways vs strong sides). We still have others who can do well in the batting order after him. If he succeeds, Ind will win more matches (or even the tourney) 1 You don't pick team based on history. But current form. Going by that Rahane has 3 decent matches ICC tournaments against bigger teams. Should we bring him back? Rohit sharma's overall career record against Australia is nothing but stupendous. Rohit vs England in ENgland averages 53 Kohli averages 40 Dhawan averages 43 Rohit vs Australia in Australia averages 58 Kohli averages 44 Dhawan averages 36 Rohit vs SOuth Africa in South Africa 19 Kohli averages 86 Dhawan averages 47.85 Rohit vs NZ in NZ 35 Kohli averages 54 Dhawn averages 33.62 Basically except in NZ and SA he is above the other two. These 3 complement each other very well at the top. Nikola 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 We are basically talking about an issue that is moot. No way in hell they will separate these two. india's problem is 4,5,6,7. flamy 1 Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: You don't pick team based on history. But current form. Going by that Rahane has 3 decent matches ICC tournaments against bigger teams. Should we bring him back? Rohit sharma's overall career record against Australia is nothing but stupendous. Rohit vs England in ENgland averages 53 Kohli averages 40 Dhawan averages 43 Rohit vs Australia in Australia averages 58 Kohli averages 44 Dhawan averages 36 Rohit vs SOuth Africa in South Africa 19 Kohli averages 86 Dhawan averages 47.85 Rohit vs NZ in NZ 35 Kohli averages 54 Dhawn averages 33.62 Basically except in NZ and SA he is above the other two. These 3 complement each other very well at the top. Exactly, but you are asking for Rohit based on irrelevant history .... In terms of potential, Pant has more (have I posted Pant's numbers) and we have seen how Rohit plays (and fails as discussed) Also ignoring the difference b/w doing well in bilaterals and round robin events (which is again explained in the OP) PS from OP But Rohit-Dhawan is a successful opening partnership, why should India tinker with it? And if it is tinkered, who should make the way for Pant? Rohit-Dhawan is definitely a good pair. However, most of their success as a pair has come in bilaterals where the team gets to play the same opposition over a bunch of games, which helps players to eventually have some great games when they encounter batting friendly surfaces. In WC group games, you would play a different opposition till you meet a team again in the SF If we take ICC and world events into consideration, Dhawan averages 77 with a SR of 98, while Rohit averages 32 with a SR of 76, which is similar to how openers played in 1980s Additionally, Rohit SR is among the lowest till he gets to his 50. If we take his 50+ scores conversation ratio into account, it would translate in to 4-5 50+ scores in the 9 group games. However, if those 50+ scores come in games vs. the subcon teams, many of which are expected to not make it to the SFs, it will not benefit Ind, which could get knocked out by virtue of losing to strong SENA teams Therefore, in ICC events, Dhawan could continue to open to leverage on his past good record in world events. Rohit can be played in the MO you are basically posting the bolded parts, which I have already argued on your behalf Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
Nikola Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) I have said it in past that rohit has 2 centuries in icc knockout tournaments. It doesn't matter against which team it came. It came in pressure games. If the team is weak then how come they reached that level? If SENA is only considered then South Africa, New Zealand & Australia didn't even qualify for knockouts in 2017 & England got knocked out by same bangladesh in 2015 wc. Without that knock bangladesh fans would have trolled us till now. Edited February 21, 2019 by Nikola Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, zen said: Exactly, but you are asking for Rohit based on irrelevant history .... In terms of potential, Pant has more (have I posted Pant's numbers) and we have seen how Rohit plays (and fails as discussed) Also ignoring the difference b/w doing well in bilaterals and round robin events (which is again explained in the OP) PS from OP But Rohit-Dhawan is a successful opening partnership, why should India tinker with it? And if it is tinkered, who should make the way for Pant? Rohit-Dhawan is definitely a good pair. However, most of their success as a pair has come in bilaterals where the team gets to play the same opposition over a bunch of games, which helps players to eventually have some great games when they encounter batting friendly surfaces. In WC group games, you would play a different opposition till you meet a team again in the SF If we take ICC and world events into consideration, Dhawan averages 77 with a SR of 98, while Rohit averages 32 with a SR of 76, which is similar to how openers played in 1980s Additionally, Rohit SR is among the lowest till he gets to his 50. If we take his 50+ scores conversation ratio into account, it would translate in to 4-5 50+ scores in the 9 group games. However, if those 50+ scores come in games vs. the subcon teams, many of which are expected to not make it to the SFs, it will not benefit Ind, which could get knocked out by virtue of losing to strong SENA teams Therefore, in ICC events, Dhawan could continue to open to leverage on his past good record in world events. Rohit can be played in the MO you are basically posting the bolded parts, which I have already argued on your behalf Problem is you are trying to drop Rohit down the order when he is at peak of his powers based on the fact he scores 10 runs less than ENgland in the first 10 overs. There is absolutely no guarantee your suggestion will even work. Sending Pant against swinging balls of Boult, Southee, Dale Steyn, Rabada, Cummins, Starc to swing the bat around will yield nothing but negative results assuming even Pant finds a spot in the XI. You can slice and dice their strike rate but at the end of the day they score according to the match situations. Besides why do you think Pant cannot do the same acceleration in the middle overs or end overs? In a 50 over game you can start your acceleration at any point. Can you come up with a stat for scoring rate between 20th and 40th over and 40th and 50th over while batting first. Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Problem is you are trying to drop Rohit down the order when he is at peak of his powers based on the fact he scores 10 runs less than ENgland in the first 10 overs. There is absolutely no guarantee your suggestion will even work. Sending Pant against swinging balls of Boult, Southee, Dale Steyn, Rabada, Cummins, Starc to swing the bat around will yield nothing but negative results assuming even Pant finds a spot in the XI. You can slice and dice their strike rate but at the end of the day they score according to the match situations. Besides why do you think Pant cannot do the same acceleration in the middle overs or end overs? In a 50 over game you can start your acceleration at any point. Can you come up with a stat for scoring rate between 20th and 40th over and 40th and 50th over while batting first. The difference b/w a SR of 70 and 125 is 33 runs in PP .... As mentioned before, the problem is he is slow to get of the blocks and also does NOT score big vs major teams in such events. Avg around 25 vs SENA for e.g. SENA View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 100 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 5 of 5 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s S Dhawan 2013-2017 5 5 0 405 137 81.00 388 104.38 2 1 0 48 6 AM Rahane 2015-2015 2 2 0 123 79 61.50 128 96.09 0 1 0 9 3 V Kohli 2013-2017 5 5 1 197 76* 49.25 249 79.11 0 1 0 16 2 MS Dhoni 2013-2017 5 4 0 110 65 27.50 106 103.77 0 1 1 9 2 RG Sharma 2013-2017 5 5 0 120 65 24.00 169 71.00 0 1 1 11 4 Pak and WI View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Opposition team Pakistan or West Indies Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 100 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 3 of 3 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s V Kohli 2013-2017 6 6 2 270 107 67.50 284 95.07 1 1 0 26 3 S Dhawan 2013-2017 6 6 1 321 102* 64.20 325 98.76 1 2 0 33 3 RG Sharma 2013-2017 6 6 0 183 91 30.50 248 73.79 0 2 1 19 2 BD and SL View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Opposition team Bangladesh or Sri Lanka Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 100 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 3 of 3 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s RG Sharma 2013-2017 4 4 1 371 137 123.66 384 96.61 2 1 0 39 7 V Kohli 2013-2017 4 4 2 157 96* 78.50 155 101.29 0 2 1 17 1 S Dhawan 2013-2017 4 4 0 269 125 67.25 304 88.48 1 1 0 31 3 We do NOT need to back Rohit to open to be a SL-BD specialist Note: By now you must have realized that Rohit has poor stats in such circumstances. The more you advocate, the more the opportunity for such stats to come out Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
flamy Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Brilliant posts by VVVS OP likes to go by potential rather than reality like bringing in Shaw, Agarwal, Gill etc. So, this is basically just fantasizing without actual merit. Pant is not fully developed LOI player yet. We don't want 30s at the top. The entire premise of OP is based on trying to emulate England. Be India, not Ingerland. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 So Rahane should open the innings based on your statistics lol. You don't pick teams based on based on these "ICC tournament filters". If a batsman always fails against a certain team then you have some point. He has solid records against all the teams that is why he is ranked no.2 and considered to be one of the best opener. Even in the Australia match India was 2 runs for 3 wickets. He literally dragged the team from that position almost took his side to win. You cannot use some "exclusively filters" and say he will suck on a full moon day against Australia. Tendulkar failed in both world cup finals. So we have to say he should not be picked for a world cup final? Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, flamy said: Brilliant posts by VVVS OP likes to go by potential rather than reality like bringing in Shaw, Agarwal, Gill etc. So, this is basically just fantasizing without actual merit. Pant is not fully developed LOI player yet. We don't want 30s at the top. The entire premise of OP is based on trying to emulate England. Be India, not Ingerland. Shaw, Agarwal and Pant have done well! And can we expect Rohit to match Dhawan's performance this time and go at 73 at 102 vs the 6 major teams in this WC (not even vs all 9 teams) View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or West Indies Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013 Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut) or World Cup Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 100 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s S Dhawan 2013-2017 11 11 1 726 137 72.60 713 101.82 3 3 0 81 9 V Kohli 2013-2017 11 11 3 467 107 58.37 533 87.61 1 2 0 42 5 AM Rahane 2015-2015 4 4 0 137 79 34.25 163 84.04 0 1 1 11 3 MS Dhoni 2013-2017 11 7 1 177 65 29.50 191 92.67 0 1 1 13 4 RG Sharma 2013-2017 11 11 0 303 91 27.54 417 72.66 0 3 2 30 6 RA Jadeja 2013-2017 11 7 2 129 47* 25.80 129 100.00 0 0 0 13 3 SK Raina 2013-2015 8 6 0 119 74 19.83 109 109.17 0 1 0 9 4 Edited February 22, 2019 by zen Link to comment
zen Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: So Rahane should open the innings based on your statistics lol. You don't pick teams based on based on these "ICC tournament filters". If a batsman always fails against a certain team then you have some point. He has solid records against all the teams that is why he is ranked no.2 and considered to be one of the best opener. Even in the Australia match India was 2 runs for 3 wickets. He literally dragged the team from that position almost took his side to win. You cannot use some "exclusively filters" and say he will suck on a full moon day against Australia. Tendulkar failed in both world cup finals. So we have to say he should not be picked for a world cup final? Rahane only avgs 35 at 84 vs the 6 major sides (and is not to be in the squad. If we have to take random names, I would go with Shaw too) .... if one wants to discuss based on stats, should be able to synthesize the info .... i hope that next point is not so should we open with Shami PS already discussed the point on bilaterals. If Rohit fanboys expect others to evaluate him based on how they dream about him, it is being too optimistic Edited February 21, 2019 by zen Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 Just now, zen said: Rahane only avgs 35 at 84 vs the 6 major sides (and is not to be in the squad. If we have to take random names, I would go with Shaw too) .... you need to be able to synthesis the info but I do not expect that on forum, where people from all walks of life post .... i hope that next point is not so should we open with Shami No basically you are using some filters to come up with a solution to a problem that never exists in the first place. India is ranked no.2. Rohit is world no.2. You don't become world no.2 just by bashing minnows. In the last 2 years performance of Indian batsmen in matches won by India. A genuine match winner at the top with 11 centuries. Only guy who can produce those big overs. Dhawan after 40th over vs Rohit after 40th over not even a comparison. Look at the number of sixes he can hit. You just randomly come up with a suggestion to replace this guy based on "ICC filter". Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 By the way i have immense respect for any Indian that bashes Bangladesh lol Link to comment
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