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Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

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My concern is last 4 batsmen (assuming Bhuvi doesn't make it to XI based on bowling form), not last 10 overs. Guarantee the 4 duds in our tail won't be able to collectively score 10 runs against any side no matter how many overs are left. This is pathetic, even in '83 we had bottom 4 of Binny, Lal, Kirmani, Sandhu...in the final we were 6/110, 7/130 and then 183 ao against Roberts/Holding/Marshall/Garner. 

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17 minutes ago, Gollum said:

My concern is last 4 batsmen (assuming Bhuvi doesn't make it to XI based on bowling form), not last 10 overs. Guarantee the 4 duds in our tail won't be able to collectively score 10 runs against any side no matter how many overs are left. This is pathetic, even in '83 we had bottom 4 of Binny, Lal, Kirmani, Sandhu...in the final we were 6/110, 7/130 and then 183 ao against Roberts/Holding/Marshall/Garner. 

wouldn't that be similar for most major teams? Below 8 to 9 in the last 12 months: 

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 remove greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
Grouped by team remove team from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 7 14 16 4 225 57 18.75 245 91.83 0 1 1 12 10 investigate this query
India 10 27 27 8 324 46 17.05 425 76.23 0 0 2 15 11 investigate this query
England 8 19 20 4 226 50 14.12 249 90.76 0 1 4 22 6 investigate this query
Australia 12 21 31 9 301 34 13.68 330 91.21 0 0 3 24 5 investigate this query
South Africa 10 21 15 2 156 60 12.00 256 60.93 0 1 2 16 2

 

 

PS Away from home:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Home or away away (home of opposition) remove away (home of opposition) from query
Start of match date greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 remove greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
Grouped by team remove team from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
India 8 11 10 3 150 45 21.42 180 83.33 0 0 1 8 7 investigate this query
Australia 8 10 17 3 186 29 13.28 187 99.46 0 0 2 14 3 investigate this query
England 6 11 10 1 87 47* 9.66 107 81.30 0 0 3 8 2 investigate this query
South Africa 5 8 8 1 53 17 7.57 97 54.63 0 0 0 6 0
Edited by zen
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1 hour ago, zen said:

By throwing in random numbers, are you implying that we should be 240/3 vs 290/6 after 45? And then we use the last 5 overs to get to 290/6 after 50, when we were at 290/6 at 45? :dontknow:

Unless you have lived in a cave in the last 3 years  it is one of the most obvious thing discussed in every match where we faltered to finsih well. This was against freaking Hongkong. At 40th over 237/2 we finished with 285/7

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8532/commentary/1153246/hong-kong-vs-india-4th-match-group-a-asia-cup-2018?innings=1

 

 

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Last 2 years partnerships between 7th and 10th wicket

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=fow_score;partnership_wicketmin1=7;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow;view=innings

 

Anytime we have a decent partnership down the order it was either with Jadeja or Bhuvaneswar. Neither of them are going to be in the playing XI.  It will be Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bhumrah. 4 rank tailenders.

 

 

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2
15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Unless you have lived in a cave in the last 3 years  it is one of the most obvious thing discussed in every match where we faltered to finsih well. This was against freaking Hongkong. At 40th over 237/2 we finished with 285/7

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8532/commentary/1153246/hong-kong-vs-india-4th-match-group-a-asia-cup-2018?innings=1

In the OP, you wrote:

 

 
 
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We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this?

 

 

In the scorecard you posted, Ind was 277/6 in the 49th over? How many were you hoping the last 4 to hit? .... FYI, in T20, last 3 overs, for example, = 15% of overs. While in 50 overs ODIs, the same = 6% :winky:

 

 

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Indian tail being dud mean Indian middle order has to play with uber caution. There is a cascading effect to this. 

 

The tail of major teams this year esp. 8 and 9, performs similarly:

 

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Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 remove between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
Grouped by team remove team from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 7 11 12 4 155 57 19.37 173 89.59 0 1 1 9 6 investigate this query
India 6 13 14 2 208 46 17.33 258 80.62 0 0 0 11 8 investigate this query
Australia 7 13 15 7 129 29 16.12 121 106.61 0 0 1 11 1 investigate this query
England 4 5 4 0 15 15 3.75 26 57.69 0 0 3 3 0 investigate this query
South Africa 7 10 4 0 11 8 2.75 27 40.74 0 0 2 0 0

 

8 to 11:

 

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Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 remove between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 from query
Batting position greater than or equal to 8 remove greater than or equal to 8 from query
Grouped by team remove team from query
Ordered by batting average (descending)
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 9 11 20 7 200 57 15.38 228 87.71 0 1 2 12 9 investigate this query
India 9 13 27 8 258 46 13.57 333 77.47 0 0 2 18 9 investigate this query
Australia 9 13 22 11 149 29 13.54 147 101.36 0 0 3 13 1 investigate this query
South Africa 10 10 8 2 25 8 4.16 58 43.10 0 0 2 1 0 investigate this query
England 5 5 8 2 18 15 3.00 38 47.36 0 0 4 3

 

 

And MO usually bat in middle overs where have the opportunity to play with caution, so what is the point?

 

 

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On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

Their super duper useless batting will force the middle order to play cautiously.  There is a cascading effect to it. 

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5 minutes ago, zen said:

On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

In the last 5 overs teams can score as much as 60 to 70 runs. In order to do that you need a bit of contribution from the tailender. Atleast sticking around.  We don't have anyone. Are you seriously suggesting India will not lose more than 5 wickets in any match before 40th over? 

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Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Their super duper useless batting will force the middle order to play cautiously.  There is a cascading effect to it. 

MO usually plays as per situation when they play in middle overs. In slog overs, batsmen take relatively more risks! .... And FYI in the HK scorecard that you posted, the 3rd wkt fell in the 41st over, which is power play 3 / slog overs :rolleyes:

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2
3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In the last 5 overs teams can score as much as 60 to 70 runs. In order to do that you need a bit of contribution from the tailender. Atleast sticking around.  We don't have anyone. Are you seriously suggesting India will not lose more than 5 wickets in any match before 40th over? 

I expect someone from the top 7 to be there for most of the overs more often than not. there will always be exceptions (and it is sports) .... the performance of tail of major teams recently is already posted  

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Just now, zen said:

MO usually plays as per situation when they play in middle overs. In slog overs, batsmen take relatively more risks! .... And FYI in the HK scorecard that you posted, the 3rd wkt fell in the 41st over, which is power play 3 / slog overs :rolleyes:

Yes. India leaves it too late because our tail is uber thin. Both Bhuvi and Jaddu won't play to help the score.  Even they can be hit or miss. Till now India has never played a match where Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bumrah all played together.  FIrst time India will play in the world cup.

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Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Yes. India leaves it too late because our tail is uber thin. Both Bhuvi and Jaddu won't play to help the score.  Even they can be hit or miss. Till now India has never played a match where Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bumrah all played together.  FIrst time India will play in the world cup.

Again the numbers for tail of various teams are already posted. Ind is as good or as bad as many of the other major teams  .... A lack of Jadeja and Bhuvi where applicable would be compensated by playing on good batting surfaces which provides more opportunities to the other batsmen .... I expect MO to play as per the situation in the middle overs. If there is a ball to be hit, it will be hit and vice versa! 

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4 minutes ago, zen said:

Again the numbers for tail of various teams are already posted. Ind is as good or as bad as many of the other major teams  .... A lack of Jadeja and Bhuvi where applicable would be compensated by playing on good batting surfaces which provides more opportunities to the other batsmen .... I expect MO to play as per the situation in the middle overs. If there is a ball to be hit, it will be hit and vice versa! 

India collapses for 158 against Pakistan on a good batting surface. one the top order was blown away.  

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You are picking the only line of 290/6 not "besides Pandya who can do this". Dhoni is past it. He can't produce 20 run over against high class fast bowling. Jadhav hit or miss. Either Kohli or Rohit has to stick around till 40th over for some magic. Dhawan is useless in the end overs. Not sure who is going to be our no.4.  Explain why India is below even minnows in the last 10 overs last year scoring at 5.78 runs per over on an average.

 

da2ei45070o11.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

Edited by vvvslaxman
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3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India collapses for 158 against Pakistan on a good batting surface. one the top order was blown away.  

It’s sports. At times, you play good, at times bad. At times, the other team has a great day like Ind had in the final of 83 .... Ind got bowled out for 125 at Sharjah and still won .... It is all part of the game. You put your best put forward. In the end, good teams and players play good cricket more often than not! 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

It’s sports. At times, you play good, at times bad. At times, the other team has a great day like Ind had in the final of 83 .... Ind got bowled out for 125 at Sharjah and still won .... It is all part of the game. You put your best put forward. In the end, good teams and players play good cricket more often than not! 

 

 

So you cannot automatically assume we will get batting wickets and we will do well on all batting wickets without a collapse. You could collapse on a good batting wicket too You may need a bit of help from the tailender to push the score to a respectable total.  Even against Bangladesh we have collapsed a few times. 2007 world cup two collapses in a row with a mighty batting line up.  

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5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Explain why India is below even minnows in the last 10 overs last year scoring at 5.78 runs per over on an average.

 

da2ei45070o11.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

 

The above data is from 1/1/18 to some point in Asia Cup. Anyone who has looked at any stats will tell you:

 

1) How a team plays in last 10 overs depends upon par scores. For e.g. if the par score is 250, you do not expect teams to blast 100 runs in the last 10. On the other hand if the par scores are higher, .... 

2) The RR in slog overs also depend upon whether Ind is setting a total or chasing it. In Asia Cup, we chased relatively low totals comfortable for example, so our RR in slog overs would be less

 

3) Since the data was presented at some point during the Asia Cup, Ind in 2018 till the end of Asia Cup:

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Primary team India remove India from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2018 and 29 Sep 2018 remove between 1 Jan 2018 and 29 Sep 2018 from query
Totals in terms of batting team switch totals
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Overall figures
Team Mat WonDescending Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
India 15 11 3 1 0 3.666 46.20 5.53 15 303 236

 

  • Has a healthy W/L ratio
  • While its overall RPO is 5.53 

 

 

Quote

Dhoni is past it. He can't produce 20 run over against high class fast bowling. Jadhav hit or miss. Either Kohli or Rohit has to stick around till 40th over for some magic. Dhawan is useless in the end overs. Not sure who is going to be our no.4. 

If you run a race, you have to stay abreast with other horses to win :winky:

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