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vvvslaxman

Last 10 overs

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Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

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My concern is last 4 batsmen (assuming Bhuvi doesn't make it to XI based on bowling form), not last 10 overs. Guarantee the 4 duds in our tail won't be able to collectively score 10 runs against any side no matter how many overs are left. This is pathetic, even in '83 we had bottom 4 of Binny, Lal, Kirmani, Sandhu...in the final we were 6/110, 7/130 and then 183 ao against Roberts/Holding/Marshall/Garner. 

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17 minutes ago, Gollum said:

My concern is last 4 batsmen (assuming Bhuvi doesn't make it to XI based on bowling form), not last 10 overs. Guarantee the 4 duds in our tail won't be able to collectively score 10 runs against any side no matter how many overs are left. This is pathetic, even in '83 we had bottom 4 of Binny, Lal, Kirmani, Sandhu...in the final we were 6/110, 7/130 and then 183 ao against Roberts/Holding/Marshall/Garner. 

wouldn't that be similar for most major teams? Below 8 to 9 in the last 12 months: 

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 remove greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 7 14 16 4 225 57 18.75 245 91.83 0 1 1 12 10 investigate this query
India 10 27 27 8 324 46 17.05 425 76.23 0 0 2 15 11 investigate this query
England 8 19 20 4 226 50 14.12 249 90.76 0 1 4 22 6 investigate this query
Australia 12 21 31 9 301 34 13.68 330 91.21 0 0 3 24 5 investigate this query
South Africa 10 21 15 2 156 60 12.00 256 60.93 0 1 2 16 2

 

 

PS Away from home:

 

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Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
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Start of match date greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 remove greater than or equal to 16 Apr 2018 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
India 8 11 10 3 150 45 21.42 180 83.33 0 0 1 8 7 investigate this query
Australia 8 10 17 3 186 29 13.28 187 99.46 0 0 2 14 3 investigate this query
England 6 11 10 1 87 47* 9.66 107 81.30 0 0 3 8 2 investigate this query
South Africa 5 8 8 1 53 17 7.57 97 54.63 0 0 0 6 0
Edited by zen

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1 hour ago, zen said:

By throwing in random numbers, are you implying that we should be 240/3 vs 290/6 after 45? And then we use the last 5 overs to get to 290/6 after 50, when we were at 290/6 at 45? :dontknow:

Unless you have lived in a cave in the last 3 years  it is one of the most obvious thing discussed in every match where we faltered to finsih well. This was against freaking Hongkong. At 40th over 237/2 we finished with 285/7

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8532/commentary/1153246/hong-kong-vs-india-4th-match-group-a-asia-cup-2018?innings=1

 

 

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Last 2 years partnerships between 7th and 10th wicket

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=fow_score;partnership_wicketmin1=7;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow;view=innings

 

Anytime we have a decent partnership down the order it was either with Jadeja or Bhuvaneswar. Neither of them are going to be in the playing XI.  It will be Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bhumrah. 4 rank tailenders.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Unless you have lived in a cave in the last 3 years  it is one of the most obvious thing discussed in every match where we faltered to finsih well. This was against freaking Hongkong. At 40th over 237/2 we finished with 285/7

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8532/commentary/1153246/hong-kong-vs-india-4th-match-group-a-asia-cup-2018?innings=1

In the OP, you wrote:

 

 
 
1
Quote

 

We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this?

 

 

In the scorecard you posted, Ind was 277/6 in the 49th over? How many were you hoping the last 4 to hit? .... FYI, in T20, last 3 overs, for example, = 15% of overs. While in 50 overs ODIs, the same = 6% :winky:

 

 

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Indian tail being dud mean Indian middle order has to play with uber caution. There is a cascading effect to this. 

 

The tail of major teams this year esp. 8 and 9, performs similarly:

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 remove between 1 Jan 2019 and 31 Dec 2019 from query
Batting position between 8 and 9 remove between 8 and 9 from query
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 7 11 12 4 155 57 19.37 173 89.59 0 1 1 9 6 investigate this query
India 6 13 14 2 208 46 17.33 258 80.62 0 0 0 11 8 investigate this query
Australia 7 13 15 7 129 29 16.12 121 106.61 0 0 1 11 1 investigate this query
England 4 5 4 0 15 15 3.75 26 57.69 0 0 3 3 0 investigate this query
South Africa 7 10 4 0 11 8 2.75 27 40.74 0 0 2 0 0

 

8 to 11:

 

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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS AveDescending BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
New Zealand 9 11 20 7 200 57 15.38 228 87.71 0 1 2 12 9 investigate this query
India 9 13 27 8 258 46 13.57 333 77.47 0 0 2 18 9 investigate this query
Australia 9 13 22 11 149 29 13.54 147 101.36 0 0 3 13 1 investigate this query
South Africa 10 10 8 2 25 8 4.16 58 43.10 0 0 2 1 0 investigate this query
England 5 5 8 2 18 15 3.00 38 47.36 0 0 4 3

 

 

And MO usually bat in middle overs where have the opportunity to play with caution, so what is the point?

 

 

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On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

Their super duper useless batting will force the middle order to play cautiously.  There is a cascading effect to it. 

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5 minutes ago, zen said:

On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:

In the last 5 overs teams can score as much as 60 to 70 runs. In order to do that you need a bit of contribution from the tailender. Atleast sticking around.  We don't have anyone. Are you seriously suggesting India will not lose more than 5 wickets in any match before 40th over? 

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Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Their super duper useless batting will force the middle order to play cautiously.  There is a cascading effect to it. 

MO usually plays as per situation when they play in middle overs. In slog overs, batsmen take relatively more risks! .... And FYI in the HK scorecard that you posted, the 3rd wkt fell in the 41st over, which is power play 3 / slog overs :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In the last 5 overs teams can score as much as 60 to 70 runs. In order to do that you need a bit of contribution from the tailender. Atleast sticking around.  We don't have anyone. Are you seriously suggesting India will not lose more than 5 wickets in any match before 40th over? 

I expect someone from the top 7 to be there for most of the overs more often than not. there will always be exceptions (and it is sports) .... the performance of tail of major teams recently is already posted  

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Just now, zen said:

MO usually plays as per situation when they play in middle overs. In slog overs, batsmen take relatively more risks! .... And FYI in the HK scorecard that you posted, the 3rd wkt fell in the 41st over, which is power play 3 / slog overs :rolleyes:

Yes. India leaves it too late because our tail is uber thin. Both Bhuvi and Jaddu won't play to help the score.  Even they can be hit or miss. Till now India has never played a match where Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bumrah all played together.  FIrst time India will play in the world cup.

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Just now, vvvslaxman said:

Yes. India leaves it too late because our tail is uber thin. Both Bhuvi and Jaddu won't play to help the score.  Even they can be hit or miss. Till now India has never played a match where Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bumrah all played together.  FIrst time India will play in the world cup.

Again the numbers for tail of various teams are already posted. Ind is as good or as bad as many of the other major teams  .... A lack of Jadeja and Bhuvi where applicable would be compensated by playing on good batting surfaces which provides more opportunities to the other batsmen .... I expect MO to play as per the situation in the middle overs. If there is a ball to be hit, it will be hit and vice versa! 

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4 minutes ago, zen said:

Again the numbers for tail of various teams are already posted. Ind is as good or as bad as many of the other major teams  .... A lack of Jadeja and Bhuvi where applicable would be compensated by playing on good batting surfaces which provides more opportunities to the other batsmen .... I expect MO to play as per the situation in the middle overs. If there is a ball to be hit, it will be hit and vice versa! 

India collapses for 158 against Pakistan on a good batting surface. one the top order was blown away.  

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You are picking the only line of 290/6 not "besides Pandya who can do this". Dhoni is past it. He can't produce 20 run over against high class fast bowling. Jadhav hit or miss. Either Kohli or Rohit has to stick around till 40th over for some magic. Dhawan is useless in the end overs. Not sure who is going to be our no.4.  Explain why India is below even minnows in the last 10 overs last year scoring at 5.78 runs per over on an average.

 

da2ei45070o11.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

Edited by vvvslaxman

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3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India collapses for 158 against Pakistan on a good batting surface. one the top order was blown away.  

It’s sports. At times, you play good, at times bad. At times, the other team has a great day like Ind had in the final of 83 .... Ind got bowled out for 125 at Sharjah and still won .... It is all part of the game. You put your best put forward. In the end, good teams and players play good cricket more often than not! 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

It’s sports. At times, you play good, at times bad. At times, the other team has a great day like Ind had in the final of 83 .... Ind got bowled out for 125 at Sharjah and still won .... It is all part of the game. You put your best put forward. In the end, good teams and players play good cricket more often than not! 

 

 

So you cannot automatically assume we will get batting wickets and we will do well on all batting wickets without a collapse. You could collapse on a good batting wicket too You may need a bit of help from the tailender to push the score to a respectable total.  Even against Bangladesh we have collapsed a few times. 2007 world cup two collapses in a row with a mighty batting line up.  

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5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Explain why India is below even minnows in the last 10 overs last year scoring at 5.78 runs per over on an average.

 

da2ei45070o11.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

 

The above data is from 1/1/18 to some point in Asia Cup. Anyone who has looked at any stats will tell you:

 

1) How a team plays in last 10 overs depends upon par scores. For e.g. if the par score is 250, you do not expect teams to blast 100 runs in the last 10. On the other hand if the par scores are higher, .... 

2) The RR in slog overs also depend upon whether Ind is setting a total or chasing it. In Asia Cup, we chased relatively low totals comfortable for example, so our RR in slog overs would be less

 

3) Since the data was presented at some point during the Asia Cup, Ind in 2018 till the end of Asia Cup:

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Primary team India remove India from query
Start of match date between 1 Jan 2018 and 29 Sep 2018 remove between 1 Jan 2018 and 29 Sep 2018 from query
Totals in terms of batting team switch totals
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Overall figures
Team Mat WonDescending Lost Tied NR W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS  
India 15 11 3 1 0 3.666 46.20 5.53 15 303 236

 

  • Has a healthy W/L ratio
  • While its overall RPO is 5.53 

 

 

Quote

Dhoni is past it. He can't produce 20 run over against high class fast bowling. Jadhav hit or miss. Either Kohli or Rohit has to stick around till 40th over for some magic. Dhawan is useless in the end overs. Not sure who is going to be our no.4. 

If you run a race, you have to stay abreast with other horses to win :winky:

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As long as the top 7 can protect their wickets and go at a reasonable rate we will be fine. Any middle order collapse will lead to under par total like we had against Australia in the last series. 233/6 at 45th over to 250 all out with Kuldeep and Bumrah couldn't even take the game to 50th over. India's best bowlers can't bat for sh*t.  Players with reasonable batting potential are not exactly as good as the other bowlers. This will be the case especially when we bat first.

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26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

As long as the top 7 can protect their wickets and go at a reasonable rate we will be fine. Any middle order collapse will lead to under par total like we had against Australia in the last series. 233/6 at 45th over to 250 all out with Kuldeep and Bumrah couldn't even take the game to 50th over. India's best bowlers can't bat for sh*t.  Players with reasonable batting potential are not exactly as good as the other bowlers. This will be the case especially when we bat first.

Irrelevant points as

a) RR depends upon the evaluated par scores 

b) Good players/teams play at necessary RR 

c) the avg of #8-11 for major teams off late is around 15. Therefore, the top 7 of major teams do make bulk of runs at the necessary RR 

d) Playing at necessary RR does not equal to losing wickets ( not “reasonable” RR which I am interpreting as going slower than required. One should bat like how Rahane did in a T20 WC SF and Yuvi in a T20 WC final)

e) The idea is to play to win a game and not show we are in it for a certain period by constantly increasing the RRR to get to the necessary total. You win a game by doing what it takes to win (and not by under performing for most parts in hopes of doing well later on or by aiming for avg results) 

Edited by zen

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9 minutes ago, zen said:

Irrelevant points as

a) RR depends upon the evaluated par scores 

b) Good players/teams play at necessary RR 

c) the avg of #8-11 for major teams off late is around 15. Therefore, the top 7 of major teams do make bulk of runs at the necessary RR 

d) Playing at necessary RR does not equal to losing wickets ( not “reasonable” RR which I am interpreting as going slower than required. One should bat like how Rahane did in a T20 WC SF and Yuvi in a T20 WC final)

e) The idea is to play to win a game and not show we are in it for a certain period by constantly increasing the RRR to get to the necessary total. You win a game by doing what it takes to win (and not by under performing for most parts in hopes of doing well later on or by aiming for avg results) 

Average will give you a false picture. It is about the ability of batsman sticking around.  Pretty much the same thing we saw in Test matches where  a little bit of resistance from tail would have earned a couple more test wins. Sam Curran purely with his tailender batting skill won 2 test matches. Not very dissimilar in one dayers.  Shami averages 4.4 Bumrah averages 4.5  Chahal averages 8  Kuldeep 12.  in the last 2 years. Their average is 28 runs between them. Santner, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Southee, Cummins, Jhye Richardson all can better than any of these 4. Infact  Cummins and Jhye Richardson won a match scoring 14 runs in the last over. You really think these guys can do?  We have had Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Agarkar who could all bat or stick around in the past.

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You are looking at a perfect scenario where top 7 will always score bulk of the runs. This line up is not cut to do that. Even with Tendulkar, Gambhir, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Kohli, Raina we needed at times tail to wag in 2011 world cup. Against South Africa, England, Pakistan. In all those matches India needed tail to wag. Zaheer/Nehra/Munaf/Bhajji failed on  each occasion. This line up can't hold handle to that line up.  This is an unreliable middle order.

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28 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Average will give you a false picture. It is about the ability of batsman sticking around.  Pretty much the same thing we saw in Test matches where  a little bit of resistance from tail would have earned a couple more test wins. Sam Curran purely with his tailender batting skill won 2 test matches. Not very dissimilar in one dayers.  Shami averages 4.4 Bumrah averages 4.5  Chahal averages 8  Kuldeep 12.  in the last 2 years. Their average is 28 runs between them. Santner, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Southee, Cummins, Jhye Richardson all can better than any of these 4. Infact  Cummins and Jhye Richardson won a match scoring 14 runs in the last over. You really think these guys can do?  We have had Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Agarkar who could all bat or stick around in the past.

The data is posted here of how the guys in lower order have done recently and includes players who all played of their teams! 

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5 minutes ago, zen said:

The data is posted here of how the guys in lower order have done recently and includes players who all played of their teams! 

What is the highest score of some of their players compared to ours. Santner has got a 50. Woakes got a 50. Moeen ALi, Rashid both can hit 50. This average will not make Moeen Ali = Shami , Rashid = Kuldeep, Santner = Chahal. 

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25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are looking at a perfect scenario where top 7 will always score bulk of the runs. This line up is not cut to do that. Even with Tendulkar, Gambhir, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Kohli, Raina we needed at times tail to wag in 2011 world cup. Against South Africa, England, Pakistan. In all those matches India needed tail to wag. Zaheer/Nehra/Munaf/Bhajji failed on  each occasion. This line up can't hold handle to that line up.  This is an unreliable middle order.

This is about what happens more often than not. In the last 12 months:

 

1-7:

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Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 remove between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 from query
Batting position between 1 and 7 remove between 1 and 7 from query
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
India 17 27 160 29 6032 162 46.04 6692 90.13 15 23 10 578 114 investigate this query
Australia 13 21 141 12 4983 153* 38.62 5507 90.48 10 26 9 437 93 investigate this query
England 11 19 113 17 4260 150 44.37 4098 103.95 12 21 7 438 101 investigate this query
South Africa 15 21 131 27 4164 139 40.03 4560 91.31 6 24 6 449 63 investigate this query
New Zealand 12 14 84 13 2912 138 41.01 3141 92.70 5 17 3 249 63

 

8-11:

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Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 remove between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 from query
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Overall figures
Team Players Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
India 13 27 46 15 391 46 12.61 530 73.77 0 0 6 24 12 investigate this query
Australia 15 21 53 20 386 34 11.69 468 82.47 0 0 6 32 5 investigate this query
England 11 19 34 12 295 50 13.40 364 81.04 0 1 5 27 6 investigate this query
New Zealand 9 14 28 10 283 57 15.72 311 90.99 0 1 2 15 14 investigate this query
South Africa 14 21 27 10 226 60 13.29 361 62.60 0 1 2 23 3

 

 

/thread

 

 

 

 

 

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Again misleading stats. India had guys like Bhuvaneswar, Ashwin, Jadeja down the order in odd matches. You are not going to have them in the world cup. Secondly about the "most of the time"  160 innings by top 7 46 innings by bottom 4.  That doesn't sound like most of the time.  Any stats that you pull will not reflect what i say because these 4 never played together even in a single match. You don't make these collective comparisons and convince yousrelf  Indian Tail = English Tail = NZ Tail = Australian Tail. INdian top order > Mot of the teams. With two at the top going through a rough patch, there might be top order collapses. India's best case scenario is top 3 batting (Esp. Rohit/Kohli batting till 40th overs atleast ).  Aging Dhoni, unreliable Jadhav, rookie Shankar, Pandya have to do the acceleration between themselves if top 3 didn't survive till 40th over. 

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31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Again misleading stats. India had guys like Bhuvaneswar, Ashwin, Jadeja down the order in odd matches. You are not going to have them in the world cup. Secondly about the "most of the time"  160 innings by top 7 46 innings by bottom 4.  That doesn't sound like most of the time.  Any stats that you pull will not reflect what i say because these 4 never played together even in a single match. You don't make these collective comparisons and convince yousrelf  Indian Tail = English Tail = NZ Tail = Australian Tail. INdian top order > Mot of the teams. With two at the top going through a rough patch, there might be top order collapses. India's best case scenario is top 3 batting (Esp. Rohit/Kohli batting till 40th overs atleast ).  Aging Dhoni, unreliable Jadhav, rookie Shankar, Pandya have to do the acceleration between themselves if top 3 didn't survive till 40th over. 

Buddy, again an irrelevant point as has been mentioned -> a good batting track = more opportunities for the batsmen (also try to understand the data and its period properly) 

 

After changing various goal posts, now you have gone down to Ind team = poor. BD is poorer, however even it tries to compete with the resources it has. Tomorrow you will say, play 7 Rahanes + 4 bowlers as each Rahane will at least give 30-35 runs on a 300+ runs pitch so Ind gets around 260 instead of getting all out of 240-250 in trying to get 300+ :lol:  .... Sorry, but that is not how you play cricket. It is more of a pointless exercise. On a 300+ pitch, good teams back themselves and play confidently to get above that total :winky:  .... the chosen players are expected to do the required job or make way for players who can do that job

 

Edited by zen

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1 hour ago, zen said:

Buddy, again an irrelevant point as has been mentioned -> a good batting track = more opportunities for the batsmen (also try to understand the data and its period properly) 

 

After changing various goal posts, now you have gone down to Ind team = poor. BD is poorer, however even it tries to compete with the resources it has. Tomorrow you will say, play 7 Rahanes + 4 bowlers as each Rahane will at least give 30-35 runs on a 300+ runs pitch so Ind gets around 260 instead of getting all out of 240-250 in trying to get 300+ :lol:  .... Sorry, but that is not how you play cricket. It is more of a pointless exercise. On a 300+ pitch, good teams back themselves and play confidently to get above that total :winky:  .... the chosen players are expected to do the required job or make way for players who can do that job

 

Nobody is changing any goal post. I commented about two issues. Scoring in the last 10 overs and  Weak tail. If you seriously think importance of tailender batting is irrelevant then you are living in an alternate world. You somehow try to project Indian tail is as good as any other tail which everyone will laugh at. Even the mighty Australia needed the services of Andy Bichel not once but twice in 2003 world cup to bail them out. Someone like Sam Curran, Santner, Archer, Holder, Coulternile can all hit the long ball. It allows the middle order to start the acceleration early. There are many cascading benefits. Your theory probably fits in the 70s where tailenders will be genuine tailenders. You are talking about a perfect scenario. But in world cups collapse will happen. In Asia cup final Bhajji smoked Amir for a six to help India win. Same way Rajesh chauhan smoked a six to help India win their first match in Pakistan. In 1996 world cup. Kumble/Srinath helped Ajay Jadeja in the end overs big time. Your eutopian theory is not applicable even for world beaters. No team has had a near perfect world cup.

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6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Last 2 years partnerships between 7th and 10th wicket

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=fow_score;partnership_wicketmin1=7;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow;view=innings

 

Anytime we have a decent partnership down the order it was either with Jadeja or Bhuvaneswar. Neither of them are going to be in the playing XI.  It will be Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bhumrah. 4 rank tailenders.

 

 

Chahal shouldn't be in playing xi... if he is in better form than kuldeep than he should make the cut and kuldeep should sit out. No way we should be playing kulcha in xi.

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6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Nobody is changing any goal post. I commented about two issues. Scoring in the last 10 overs and  Weak tail. If you seriously think importance of tailender batting is irrelevant then you are living in an alternate world. You somehow try to project Indian tail is as good as any other tail which everyone will laugh at. Even the mighty Australia needed the services of Andy Bichel not once but twice in 2003 world cup to bail them out. Someone like Sam Curran, Santner, Archer, Holder, Coulternile can all hit the long ball. It allows the middle order to start the acceleration early. There are many cascading benefits. Your theory probably fits in the 70s where tailenders will be genuine tailenders. You are talking about a perfect scenario. But in world cups collapse will happen. In Asia cup final Bhajji smoked Amir for a six to help India win. Same way Rajesh chauhan smoked a six to help India win their first match in Pakistan. In 1996 world cup. Kumble/Srinath helped Ajay Jadeja in the end overs big time. Your eutopian theory is not applicable even for world beaters. No team has had a near perfect world cup.

Already posted “recent” data of what happens more often than not. This is not perfect scenario. Already talked about this being sports so there is unpredictability associated with it. Already talked can’t plan for poor cricket. But as usual, you have resorted to strawman and the black and white thinking where either you can play fast or get out for e.g. 

 

Don’t post irrelevant stuff that people know and use strawman. Focus on what is being discussed. 8-11 are an issue for all major teams. It is nothing new or unique that merits everyone else to change their batting approach

 

It appears as if you expect the batsmen to be slow (as they play poor cricket) even on good batting surfaces so have started to build executes even before the first ball is bowled in the World Cup :rofl: 

 

 

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13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

pandya is the least qualified to do that job. It is the job of a specialist and not a part timer.

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14 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

this is where number is like bridge between top 3 n bottom, if he is set he bats till end allowing 5,6,7 to go tonk tonk. Due to not having a good no.4 our top 3 has been even more conservative . Thats why shankar has to come good at 4....and he can tonk well in the end 

 

Jadhav isnt that bad, his problem comes when he has to come at 40/4 kind of situation . 

 

Dk isnt a bad option in last 10 overs but he doesnt give this team anything else even in batting apart from last 10 over cameos....

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46 minutes ago, zen said:

Already posted “recent” data of what happens more often than not. This is not perfect scenario. Already talked about this being sports so there is unpredictability associated with it. Already talked can’t plan for poor cricket. But as usual, you have resorted to strawman and the black and white thinking where either you can play fast or get out for e.g. 

 

Don’t post irrelevant stuff that people know and use strawman. Focus on what is being discussed. 8-11 are an issue for all major teams. It is nothing new or unique that merits everyone else to change their batting approach

 

It appears as if you expect the batsmen to be slow (as they play poor cricket) even on good batting surfaces so have started to build executes even before the first ball is bowled in the World Cup :rofl: 

 

 

In Tests it was conclusively proven how a weak tail hurt and strong tail help a team. 8-11 is not an issue for England, not an issue for Australia, not an issue for West Indies, not an issue for NZ. They have batsmen who can score 50. In the last 2 years out of 236 inings from our tail majority of the top score was registered by Bhuvi and sometimes Jaddu. Rest useless

 

4b6d0Hb.png

 

Here is the list of all the no 8-11 batsman in the last 2 years from all countries minus Bhuvi matches.  Jadeja is not even in top 100 in this list. Yes if you have  completely set of useless batsmen in the back end your middle order will definitely slow down. Heck even Kohli will try to take it to the deep or throw his wicket away.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmin1=8;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=batted_score;player_involve=5428

2;player_involve_type=none;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

In the last years Lords one dayer, David WIlley came at 239/6. England ended up with 322/7.  Willey made 50 in 31 balls. How can you say England has a weak tail with Moeen/Rashid coming in at that place.  

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51 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

this is where number is like bridge between top 3 n bottom, if he is set he bats till end allowing 5,6,7 to go tonk tonk. Due to not having a good no.4 our top 3 has been even more conservative . Thats why shankar has to come good at 4....and he can tonk well in the end 

 

Jadhav isnt that bad, his problem comes when he has to come at 40/4 kind of situation . 

 

Dk isnt a bad option in last 10 overs but he doesnt give this team anything else even in batting apart from last 10 over cameos....

Yes weak middle order makes the extremely weak middle order even worse than it is.

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3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In Tests it was conclusively proven how a weak tail hurt and strong tail help a team. 8-11 is not an issue for England, not an issue for Australia, not an issue for West Indies, not an issue for NZ. They have batsmen who can score 50. In the last 2 years out of 236 inings from our tail majority of the top score was registered by Bhuvi and sometimes Jaddu. Rest useless 

I guess, we are playing tests in the WC :rolleyes: .... Again strawman and irrelevant points 

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1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are saying Indian tail is as good as tail from any other team. I am the one making irrelevant strawman posts lol  Nice try. 

I am saying that #8-11 has performed similarly for major teams.  Most of the runs come from #1-7 as can be seen from the "recent" data .... Teams do not change their approach based on #8-11  .... as posted earlier:

 

"On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:"

 

If you know how to read data the information is on it. And you have been going on like xyz hit 50 in a game in this (data is there) :rolleyes:

 

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

I am saying that #8-11 has performed similarly for major teams.  Most of the runs come from #1-7 as can be seen from the "recent" data .... Teams do not change their approach based on #8-11  .... as posted earlier:

 

"On batting friendly pitches in Eng, it could be difficult to get all and where you would expect your batsmen to do well (in fact make the most of it) .... and here we have folks worrying about lower order that includes #10-11, who may not even get to bat too many balls that often! :rofl:"

 

If you know how to read data the information is on it. And you have been going on like xyz hit 50 in a game in this (data is there) :rolleyes:

 

How a weak tail have a cascading effect, how tailenders have won matches. You have ignored every point. You are still sticking to "they may get to bat" "our tail is the same as other tail" Sorry. You are expert at missing the point.

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4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

How a weak tail have a cascading effect, how tailenders have won matches. You have ignored every point. You are still sticking to "they may get to bat" "our tail is the same as other tail" Sorry. You are expert at missing the point.

Already explained that has been the case with major teams :winky:

 

 

Edited by zen

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44 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Not really a good explanation

 

View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 remove between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 from query
Batting position greater than or equal to 8 remove greater than or equal to 8 from query
Grouped by overall aggregate remove overall aggregate from query
Ordered by runs scored (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 1 of 1   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
  Players Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
overall 62 78 188 67 1581 60 13.06 2034 77.72 0 3 21 121 40

 

  • #8-11 avg 13 for major teams 
  • only 3 50s have been scored in 188 innings by #8-11 in the last 12 months 

 

/thread

 

(that is all is needed for people who know stats) 

 

***** 

 

For fun on ICF: 

 

A team bats as per the situation and conditions, and not based on how #8-11 are, all of whom may not even bat most of the time :lol: .... and it can be seen from the data where most runs are scored by 1-7 irrespective of the strength of #8-11, who have similar stats for major teams anyways

 

FAQs

 

  • Can team Ind tail be weaker than team X's? Yes. Does that mean it alters batting equation for key batsmen? No. Why? See above
  • By playing a relatively weaker tail, is Ind gaining in bowling? Yes. Would the gain in bowling add to Ind's total in some way? Yes as better bowlers can pick wkts/reduce other teams' total (or teams would not be playing relatively strong bowlers) 
  • Can a team collapse at times? Yes. Is it collapsing because of how #8-11 are? No 
  • Did xyz score a 50 in a random game? Yes. Data shows 50 scored too. Yes, that too!
  • Can #8-11 score runs? Yes. Can runs by #8-11 be useful? Yes.  Should teams plan for that? No. Why? Specialist Batsmen get bulk of runs
  • How do I know #1-7 get most of the runs? See below:
View overall figures [change view]
Primary team Australia remove Australia from query or England remove England from query or India remove India from query or New Zealand remove New Zealand from query or South Africa remove South Africa from query
Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 remove between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019 from query
Batting position between 1 and 7 remove between 1 and 7 from query
Grouped by overall aggregate remove overall aggregate from query
Ordered by runs scored (descending)
Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 1 of 1   First pageFirst Previous pagePrevious Next Next page Last Last page dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu
dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu
Overall figures
  Players Mat Inns NO RunsDescending HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s  
overall 68 78 629 98 22351 162 42.09 23998 93.13 48 111 35 2151

434

 

 

  • Can you ONLY score runs by playing risky cricket? No 
  • Are there ways to score big and score at "necessary" RR? Yes
  • So was this thread a waste of time? Yes

 

 

Edited by zen

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16 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

That has been the problem since 2015. Indian tailenders have been non existent for long long time.Some people have no clue , you are spot on about cascading effect on whole lineup.

 

England can go for broke from ball one as they have batting till no11, Indian batsmen cannot do that, India has no ability to chase down big totals.

 

 

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