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How Ind can go the extra mile with its existing squad?

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There have been debates about various spots esp. considering the batting-friendly conditions in the WC and availability of better options for some of the spots. Some of my threads have discussed the challenges, this thread is about how to make the most of the current resources. Before proceeding with that, a caution on the importance of the first 3 games, which if Ind loses could see it out of the tourney in the "worst" case scenario. 

 

First, the key players based on experience and/or current form:

  • Dhawan, Kohli, KL, Pandya, Chahal, Bumrah, and Shami 

Second, let us identify the other key players:

  • Rohit, Dhoni, Bhuvi, Kuldeep (went through a tough phase in IPL so in a step below based on current form), and DK (can be rotated with Dhoni in a relatively long tourney) 

Third, the remaining group 

  • Shankar, Jadeja, and Jadhav 

 

For the first 2-3 games, which are against SA, Aus, and NZ, we may need to start with the following: 

 

  • Openers: Rohit and Dhawan. Both of them are experienced campaigners. On good batting surfaces, both should try to look to play positive normal cricket. Rotate the strike, use the gaps (like Warner does for e.g.), dispatch the bad balls to the boundaries, create "smart" opportunities if bowlers are dominating. Basically, need to set a positive tone for India 
  • Kohli. Ind's premier batsman. He should look to anchor the inning and rotate the strike
  • KL. How the number 4 does will be the key esp. because the role would need to adjust and react as per the situation. If in early, would need to consolidate. If in late with Kohli playing, he has to attack relatively more. If playing with the opener, has to decide who would continue to attack and who would try to anchor. Most likely the opener if still at the crease would be in a good rhythm so KL can look to anchor and play till the end
  • Pandya. This is another key position. India's best power hitter needs to be in at 5. If in early, he can settle down nicely. If in late, he has the ability to get going from ball 1
  • WK. Dhoni and DK can be rotated in a long tourney so both remain relatively fresh 
  • #7. Here Jadeja or Jadhav or Shankar can be slotted per form and team balance requirements 
  • Kuldeep or Bhuvi per conditions and form 
  • Shami. To go for wkts 
  • Chahal. Starting with Chahal as the first spinner as he appears to be in better form. If Kuldeep regains his form, he can be the first spinner 
  • Bumrah. Ind's premier bowler. As the tournament progresses and if India is doing well, he can be rotated with Bhuvi/Shami
 

 

In the above line up, #7 (Jadeja/Jadhav/Shankar) is the weak spot relatively but can be managed by rotation, current form, conditions, and team balance requirements. Sooner or later, a winner would emerge for the #7 position. The top 5 and the 4 bowlers would need to take the bulk of responsibilities initially until we know which players are driving the team's performance.   

 

 

BOL! :isalute:

Edited by zen

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12 hours ago, zen said:

There have been debates about various spots esp. considering the batting-friendly conditions in the WC and availability of better options for some of the spots. Some of my threads have discussed the challenges, this thread is about how to make the most of the current resources. Before proceeding with that, a caution on the importance of the first 3 games, which if Ind loses could see it out of the tourney in the "worst" case scenario. 

 

First, the key players based on experience and/or current form:

  • Dhawan, Kohli, KL, Pandya, Chahal, Bumrah, and Shami 

Second, let us identify the other key players:

  • Rohit, Dhoni, Bhuvi, Kuldeep (went through a tough phase in IPL so in a step below based on current form), and DK (can be rotated with Dhoni in a relatively long tourney) 

Third, the remaining group 

  • Shankar, Jadeja, and Jadhav 

 

For the first 2-3 games, which are against SA, Aus, and NZ, we may need to start with the following: 

 

  • Openers: Rohit and Dhawan. Both of them are experienced campaigners. On good batting surfaces, both should try to look to play positive normal cricket. Rotate the strike, use the gaps (like Warner does for e.g.), dispatch the bad balls to the boundaries, create "smart" opportunities if bowlers are dominating. Basically, need to set a positive tone for India 
  • Kohli. Ind's premier batsman. He should look to anchor the inning and rotate the strike
  • KL. How the number 4 does will be the key esp. because the role would need to adjust and react as per the situation. If in early, would need to consolidate. If in late with Kohli playing, he has to attack relatively more. If playing with the opener, has to decide who would continue to attack and who would try to anchor. Most likely the opener if still at the crease would be in a good rhythm so KL can look to anchor and play till the end
  • Pandya. This is another key position. India's best power hitter needs to be in at 5. If in early, he can settle down nicely. If in late, he has the ability to get going from ball 1
  • WK. Dhoni and DK can be rotated in a long tourney so both remain relatively fresh 
  • #7. Here Jadeja or Jadhav or Shankar can be slotted per form and team balance requirements 
  • Kuldeep or Bhuvi per conditions and form 
  • Shami. To go for wkts 
  • Chahal. Starting with Chahal as the first spinner as he appears to be in better form. If Kuldeep regains his form, he can be the first spinner 
  • Bumrah. Ind's premier bowler. As the tournament progresses and if India is doing well, he can be rotated with Bhuvi/Shami
 

 

In the above line up, #7 (Jadeja/Jadhav/Shankar) is the weak spot relatively but can be managed by rotation, current form, conditions, and team balance requirements. Sooner or later, a winner would emerge for the #7 position. The top 5 and the 4 bowlers would need to take the bulk of responsibilities initially until we know which players are driving the team's performance.   

 

 

BOL! :isalute:

A good objective analysis without any stat manipulation to suit agenda :) :icflove:

 

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Look to score 7-8 runs an over right from the start. Keep the dots to a minimum.Biggest culprits here could be Rohit & Dhoni. Dhoni should be asked to bat 6/7. Give KLR the 4th spot right from the start.

Pick bowlers in XI that are likely to pick wickets.That means no place for Shankar. Pandya has to bowl full quota. Don't give more than 3 overs to any bowler in 1 spell.Batsmen get settled easily that way. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, diehardpacer said:

Look to score 7-8 runs an over right from the start. Keep the dots to a minimum.Biggest culprits here could be Rohit & Dhoni. Dhoni should be asked to bat 6/7. Give KLR the 4th spot right from the start.

Pick bowlers in XI that are likely to pick wickets.That means no place for Shankar. Pandya has to bowl full quota. Don't give more than 3 overs to any bowler in 1 spell.Batsmen get settled easily that way. 

 

 

 

Replacing Shankar with a bowler will weaken batting and lengthen the tail. And Jadeja is tail. Pandya and Jadhav or Pandya and Shankar should play.

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1 hour ago, Vilander said:

TM has not decided to go with KLR in no4 have they ?

Doubt TM has decided anything, every other day Kohli and Shastri come up with new statements. I fear they will play passing the parcel with #4 spot not allowing anyone to settle down. 

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I really miss the batting depth we had at the last champions trophy. :((

 

Of course, it didn't come to any use, when it mattered the most. :om:

 

But still we had capable bats all the way upto number 10 Bhuvi. Now we may see Shami playing at no.8. :giggle:

Edited by Norman

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8 minutes ago, Norman said:

I really miss the batting depth we had at the last champions trophy. :((

 

Of course, it didn't come to any use, when it mattered the most. :om:

 

But still we had capable bats all the way upto number 10 Bhuvi. Now we may see Shami playing at no.8. :giggle:

so you count jadeja and ashwin as good lower middle batsman in odis? shami is way better than selfish jaddu who will never play for team when needed most. Atleast shami will swing his bat and get out.

Edited by Nikola

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45 minutes ago, Nikola said:

so you count jadeja and ashwin as good lower middle batsman in odis? 

Not good but still better than Shami , Kuldeep or Chahal. I'd back them to get 50 runs between them if we are 7 down. But not the current tail. 

 

45 minutes ago, Nikola said:

shami is way better than selfish jaddu who will never play for team when needed most. 

I agree that jaddu is selfish and he's not a team man, but saying Shami is better than him is jumping too far. 

 

45 minutes ago, Nikola said:

Atleast shami will swing his bat and get out.

And what use will that be of ? I'd take 20 (30) from Jaddu rather than a 0(1) from Shami. 

Edited by Norman

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10 minutes ago, Norman said:

Not good but still better than Shami , Kuldeep or Chahal. I'd back them to get 50 runs between them if we are 7 down. But not the current tail. 

 

I agree that jaddu is selfish and he's not a team man, but saying Shami is better than him is jumping too far. 

 

And what use will that be of ? I'd take 20 (30) from Jaddu rather than a 0(1) from Shami. 

kuldeep and chahal are wicket takers not contain type of bowlers and in eng conditions ash & jaddu will get easily smacked as well. Their batting which is totally useless when teams needs it. Yeah jaddu might score 20 of 30 but it will come when team needs 60 of 40 balls.

Edited by Nikola

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13 minutes ago, Nikola said:

kuldeep and chahal are wicket takers not contain type of bowlers and in eng conditions ash & jaddu will get easily smacked as well. Their batting which is totally useless when teams needs it. Yeah jaddu might score 20 of 30 but it will come when team needs 60 of 40 balls.

All I meant was how deep we used to bat back then compared to our present 7-11 tail. Never compared their bowling abilities, for I know that KulCha are leagues ahead in white ball cricket. 

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5 hours ago, Norman said:

All I meant was how deep we used to bat back then compared to our present 7-11 tail. Never compared their bowling abilities, for I know that KulCha are leagues ahead in white ball cricket. 

yeah you can't just judge them on batting cause if they are doing better in bowling then that's what you want. In batting it's not that ashwin or jaddu was match winners nor as anyway good like kuldeep/chahal so would take current tail over past ones.

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11 minutes ago, Nikola said:

In batting it's not that ashwin or jaddu was match winners

Yes. Apart from that tied game against New Zealand in 2014, they didn't do much. But still it feels a little secure to have capable batters upto no.10 like England now. Especially when wicket is a flat-bed and you have to either put up/Chase a gigantic total. It gives the guys at the top a little more freedom to go all guns blazing. 

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We discussed the first 3 games vs. SA, Aus, and NZ .... The last two games would be against BD and SL, who could become dangerous as they may have nothing to lose at that point

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Just now, zen said:

We discussed the first 3 games vs. SA, Aus, and NZ .... The last two games would be against BD and SL, who could become dangerous as they may have nothing to lose at that point

That and also the sudden rise in the quality of the opponent cometh the SF. Our men will become soft by playing easy teams right before the high intensity SF. 

 

Happened in 2015, when we went from Bangladesh to Australia and we all know how that ended. Again in ct17 SF, we played Bangladeshs and beat them without even flexing a muscle and became soft and what happened the next game , we all know. 

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On 5/14/2019 at 9:55 PM, zen said:
  • #7. Here Jadeja or Jadhav or Shankar can be slotted per form and team balance requirements 
  • Kuldeep or Bhuvi per conditions and form 

The 11 from the OP. If Bhuvi is played, I guess it would be Jadeja or Jadhav at #7. If Kuldeep is played, Shankar may get the opportunity 

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In the last warm-up game, I expect the team to play the 12 that will play in the first game. There would not be much point in denying the time to spend in the middle to those who are expected to play in order to sort out 1 position 

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19 minutes ago, ShebbySB said:

For the first game this is my XI:

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

Rahul

Dhoni

Shankar

Hardik

Jadeja

Chahal/Kuldeep

Shami

Bumrah

I'd play both Kuldeep and Chahal just because it's against South Africa who looked all at sea against them last year. 

We shouldn't really worry about the batting depth as well as Southampton is an absolute belter of a wicket and our top 4 (if Rahul plays) will really get going. 

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24 minutes ago, Norman said:

I'd play both Kuldeep and Chahal just because it's against South Africa who looked all at sea against them last year. 

We shouldn't really worry about the batting depth as well as Southampton is an absolute belter of a wicket and our top 4 (if Rahul plays) will really get going. 

After the first warm up match I don't feel confident about our batting and playing Shami, Bumrah, Kuldeep and Chahal would mean the tails starts at 8.

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Bolded - compulsive picks until we are damn sure that we have qualified for the semis.

 

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli

KLR

MSD

Pandya

Shankar/Kedar/DK - it's a shame that DK is our specialist finisher when we got pant in the wings...

Jadeja

Chahal/Kuldeep/bhuvi - will play bhuvi for Asian opponents and start with chahal for SENAW teams

Shami

Bumrah

 

I wish we had another pacer who could produce Yorkers at will like bhuvi...

 

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vs NZ at Nottingham 

  • If the pitch is like WI vs Pak, Shami in for Kuldeep 
  • If the pitch is like Eng vs Pak, Shami in for Jadhav, whose batting form I am unsure about. Jadeja in for Kuldeep if required to strengthen both batting and fielding (though he can come in as a sub)  

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3 minutes ago, zen said:

vs NZ at Nottingham 

  • If the pitch is like WI vs Pak, Shami in for Kuldeep 
  • If the pitch is like Eng vs Pak, Shami in for Jadhav, whose batting form I am unsure about. Jadeja in for Kuldeep if required to strengthen both batting and fielding (though he can come in as a sub)  

If Shami comes in for Jadhav, our batting will stop at 6. Bhuvi at 7 will be a joke. I'd rather see Shami come in for Kuldeep, regardless of the pitch. kuldeep is looking off-colour.

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8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

If Shami comes in for Jadhav, our batting will stop at 6. Bhuvi at 7 will be a joke. I'd rather see Shami come in for Kuldeep, regardless of the pitch. kuldeep is looking off-colour.

On paper though as if Jadhav is not in good form, it would still stop at 6 but we lose out on bowling resources, our strength 

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2 minutes ago, zen said:

On paper though as if Jadhav is not in good form, it would still stop at 6 but we lose out on bowling resources, our strength 

But we don't know what form he is in yet. I expect Ind will have at least one top order collapse, which is when the likes of Rahul, Dhoni, and Jadhav will become important with Pandya playing the finisher role.

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Just now, Vijy said:

But we don't know what form he is in yet. I expect Ind will have at least one top order collapse, which is when the likes of Rahul, Dhoni, and Jadhav will become important with Pandya playing the finisher role.

That is something the team management will have to see.  I am unsure about his form so have strengthened the bowling 

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I would like to see KL and Jadhav swap places if we are going to continue with these steady starts .  Pandya and KL in last 10 can make a big difference. Jadhav plays spinners well , will take 30-40 runs from him . 

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