Muslim barbers in Moradabad refuse to give haircuts to Dalits

[coffee_rules]

 

Quote

"If Dalits take haircut and shave in these shops, the towels will become dirty. How will other Muslims take haircuts after that?" he said.

Meanwhile, not just the barbers, even other Muslims are opposing the entry of Dalits in these barber shops. They said Dalits should visit the barber shop they have been using all these years.

"This is Muslim-majority village with 95 per cent Muslim population. Today they [Dalits] are demanding entry in saloons, tomorrow they will start booking marriage halls. There are some people who want to create chaos here. The village has been peaceful for decades. This matter is being raised with ulterior motives," said Ali Ahmed.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/caste-lines-drawn-muslim-barbers-in-moradabad-refuse-haircuts-to-dalits-1568258-2019-07-13

 

I thought there was no caste in Islam.

[Ranvir]

Everyone in the subcontinent is affected by the caste system. Even in Pakistan and I'm guessing Bangladesh as well.

 

I wonder if this will go viral like the Hindu man refusing food delivered by the muslim delivery man. I think not.

[sergio04]

 

[chewy]

5 hours ago, sergio04 said:

 

This is ok, it was all in the 'name' of love, the boys were with girls and had been to same Mandir several times before

 

[Alam_dar]

11 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/caste-lines-drawn-muslim-barbers-in-moradabad-refuse-haircuts-to-dalits-1568258-2019-07-13

 

I thought there was no caste in Islam.

Police has to take very strict action against it and don't let the Muslim criminals go away. An example should be put there so that next time nobody dare to commit such caste based crime. 

[Alam_dar]

11 hours ago, Ranvir said:

Everyone in the subcontinent is affected by the caste system. Even in Pakistan and I'm guessing Bangladesh as well.

I wonder if this will go viral like the Hindu man refusing food delivered by the muslim delivery man. I think not.

I didn't see any Dalit in Pakistan. Didn't even know what Dalit was. Actually, we perhaps saw all Hindus as Dalits in Pakistan, who should be avoided and not to be touched. 

 

Any how, I saw that Muslims never take the job of sewerage and garbage cleaning, but it seems that such jobs have been reserved for Christians only (officially?). And Muslims don't even want to touch these Christians and keep a lot of distance between them and those Christians. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by Alam_dar

[chewy]

Muslims men talking about "ulterior motives"

When their number one hobby is to kidnap, bang and convert non-muslims girls 

[sergio04]

1 hour ago, chewy said:

Muslims men talking about "ulterior motives"

When their number one hobby is to kidnap, bang and convert non-muslims girls 

Their whole life revolves around how to destroy other religions.

 

[Ranvir]

3 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

I didn't see any Dalit in Pakistan. Didn't even know what Dalit was. Actually, we perhaps saw all Hindus as Dalits in Pakistan, who should be avoided and not to be touched. 

 

Any how, I saw that Muslims never take the job of sewerage and garbage cleaning, but it seems that such jobs have been reserved for Christians only (officially?). And Muslims don't even want to touch these Christians and keep a lot of distance between them and those Christians. 

Pretty much all Christian converts in Punjab are from very low castes, they converted to escape the caste system. The muslims in Pakistan know this and hence they treat the Christians like dirt.

[Stradlater]

23 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

 

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/caste-lines-drawn-muslim-barbers-in-moradabad-refuse-haircuts-to-dalits-1568258-2019-07-13

 

I thought there was no caste in Islam.

Ashrafs and Ajlafs. 

My flatmate's girlfriend is a Muslim and is a proud Sheikh. 

[Stradlater]

9 hours ago, Ranvir said:

Pretty much all Christian converts in Punjab are from very low castes, they converted to escape the caste system. The muslims in Pakistan know this and hence they treat the Christians like dirt.

They are referred to as 'churas' locally if I'm not wrong. 

Punjab used to have a huge lower caste population. Even now 1/3rd of Sikhs are from dalit section,  Mazhabis that is. 

[Alam_dar]

41 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

They are referred to as 'churas' locally if I'm not wrong. 

Punjab used to have a huge lower caste population. Even now 1/3rd of Sikhs are from dalit section,  Mazhabis that is. 

And I thought only Pakistanis are using this word CHORAS for them. 

 

My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children. But I always felt the hunger in the eyes of those children and surely I was unable to eat in front of them. But it was not due to any evil eye, but it was due to the reason that I was able to feel the pain in their eyes when they saw me with good food, but their poor mother was unable to afford it and they had to stay hungry. 

[Stradlater]

17 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

And I thought only Pakistanis are using this word CHORAS for them. 

 

My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children. But I always felt the hunger in the eyes of those children and surely I was unable to eat in front of them. But it was not due to any evil eye, but it was due to the reason that I was able to feel the pain in their eyes when they saw me with good food, but their poor mother was unable to afford it and they had to stay hungry. 

Isn't Mohammed Yousuf from the same community too?  

[Alam_dar]

2 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

Isn't Mohammed Yousuf from the same community too?  

Yes, he is. 

I have this feeling that this Christian community is although poor, but still they have strong body structure, and they have darker skin colour than normal Punjabi community. 

[Ranvir]

2 hours ago, Stradlater said:

They are referred to as 'churas' locally if I'm not wrong. 

Punjab used to have a huge lower caste population. Even now 1/3rd of Sikhs are from dalit section,  Mazhabis that is. 

Yes Chura and also chamaar but churas are seen as even lower than chamaars. Churas are cleaners and chamaars are leather workers.

 

Growing up in the UK I was only used to meeting mostly Jatt and Ramgarhia (Mistri) Sikhs and thought that the majority of Sikhs fitted into these two communities. 

 

My third visit to India in 2000 was an eye opener and I was finally old enough to understand the demographics of Punjab. Dalits are in huge numbers in Punjab, their numbers rival that of Jatts, they may even be higher. Every village has an area called chamaarli where the dalits live and there are a lot of people in this area.

 

Some of them are orthodox Sikhs, some of them are Hindus and quite a few of them follow something half way between or venerate Ravidas as being equal to the other Sikh Gurus if not even more important. They usually keep Hindu sounding names rather than typical Sikh names found in Jatt, Ramgarhia, Khatri and Rajput Sikhs. I think the Christian ones may be from cities.

 

You can't really say Punjab is a Sikh majority place, identities are not clear there especially amongst Dalits.

 

Most Punjabis who go abroad tend to be Jatts and Ramgarhias, so the number of dalits as a percentage will only go up.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ranvir

[Ranvir]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

And I thought only Pakistanis are using this word CHORAS for them. 

 

My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children. But I always felt the hunger in the eyes of those children and surely I was unable to eat in front of them. But it was not due to any evil eye, but it was due to the reason that I was able to feel the pain in their eyes when they saw me with good food, but their poor mother was unable to afford it and they had to stay hungry. 

I have seen similar behaviour, the woman who used to clean my grand parents and uncle's house used to be given food to eat but she would always eat it outside.

 

This disease needs to stop and I think it is slowly.

 

Nowadays dalits in Punjab are given lots of reservations in government jobs and require lower marks to get into university courses but this does cause resentment in other communities.

 

My father was a student in the 1970s and couldn't get into an engineering degree even though he outscored his chamaar friend who managed to get in. My Dad said he wished he was a chamaar at that point!

[Stradlater]

6 minutes ago, Ranvir said:

Yes Chura and also chamaar but churas are seen as even lower than chamaars. Churas are cleaners and chamaars are leather workers.

 

Growing up in the UK I was only used to meeting mostly Jatt and Ramgarhia (Mistri) Sikhs and thought that the majority of Sikhs fitted into these two communities. 

 

My third visit to India in 2000 was an eye opener and I was finally old enough to understand the demographics of Punjab. Dalits are in huge numbers in Punjab, their numbers rival that of Jatts, they may even be higher. Every village has an area called chamaarli where the dalits live and there are a lot of people in this area.

 

Some of them are orthodox Sikhs, some of them are Hindus and quite a few of them follow something half way or venerate Ravidas as being equal to the other Sikh Gurus if not even more important. They usually keep Hindu sounding names rather than typical Sikh names found in Jatt, Ramgarhia, Khatri and Rajput Sikhs. I think the Christian ones may be from cities.

 

You can't really say Punjab is a Sikh majority place, identities are not clear there especially amongst Dalits.

 

Most Punjabis who go abroad tend to be Jatts and Ramgarhias, so the number of dalits as a percentage will only go up.

Even if you look at Punjabi music/film industry,  Jatts dominate the scene. Every second Punjabi song has Jatt in it which speaks volumes about their domination. 

 

It's not surprising though since Jatt Sikh peasantry formed the backbone of Khalsa army and quite a few of them served as Commanders and heads of majority of Misls (these days they also claim Ranjit Singh as Jatt even though he was a Saansi Sikh). 

 

I have heard that Dalit Sikhs tend to have separate gurudwaras too although I'm not completely sure about that. 

[Ranvir]

46 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

Even if you look at Punjabi music/film industry,  Jatts dominate the scene. Every second Punjabi song has Jatt in it which speaks volumes about their domination. 

 

It's not surprising though since Jatt Sikh peasantry formed the backbone of Khalsa army and quite a few of them served as Commanders and heads of majority of Misls (these days they also claim Ranjit Singh as Jatt even though he was a Saansi Sikh). 

 

I have heard that Dalit Sikhs tend to have separate gurudwaras too although I'm not completely sure about that. 

I haven't seen caste based gurdwaras in India, they may exist but they would be very small. Unfortunately they do exist in the UK. 

 

Here in the UK the Dalit Sikhs have Ravidas gurdwaras. I went to one a few years ago out of curiosity. It is quite different to other gurdwaras. There were pictures of Dr Ambedkar in the langar area. Upstairs where we bow down in front of the Guru Granth Sahib there was a picture of Guru Nanak on the left, Guru Gobind on the right and Ravidas in the centre.

 

If people are going to discriminate against you then of course you will form your own religious institutions.

 

Some Dalits call themselves Ravidassias and consider themselves separate from Sikhs. 

 

The funny thing about those Jatt songs is that half of them are not even sung by Jatts.

Dalits, Ramgarhia and even Hindu Brahmins have all released Jatt songs.

 

Prior to the 80s/90s most singers in Punjab were Dalits or Marassis (low caste Muslims).

 

The famous Jatt Di Dushmani was sung by Chamkila, a dalit and Putt Jattan De was sung by Surinder Shinda, a Ramgarhia.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ranvir

[First class]

7 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

And I thought only Pakistanis are using this word CHORAS for them. 

 

My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children. But I always felt the hunger in the eyes of those children and surely I was unable to eat in front of them. But it was not due to any evil eye, but it was due to the reason that I was able to feel the pain in their eyes when they saw me with good food, but their poor mother was unable to afford it and they had to stay hungry. 

Other things about "chooras" in Pakistan society you described  are true and sad, but this thing "My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children" I never heard and I thing unique to your mother and aunti, unheard ( for me at least ) in  Pakistan, I never heard this thing. 

[straight_drive]

I didn't see any Dalit in Pakistan. Didn't even know what Dalit was. Actually, we perhaps saw all Hindus as Dalits in Pakistan, who should be avoided and not to be touched. 
 
Any how, I saw that Muslims never take the job of sewerage and garbage cleaning, but it seems that such jobs have been reserved for Christians only (officially?). And Muslims don't even want to touch these Christians and keep a lot of distance between them and those Christians. 

Shows the freedom by law in Pakistan

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