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R!TTER

Move over Brat Papa's in town

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I'd say SS' SF knock really moved his all round pedigree to a new level, there were many (including me) who said that Brat was the better overall batter however if you discount T20I SS is right now easily better in the other 2 formats. Even T20I he's been good but not godly, so yeah there's much room for improvement.

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In test matches there was never a doubt about it. Even In ODIs anyone would choose Smith over Kohli for crunch matches, even KW is ahead of Kohli if you take out bilaterals.This 3 failure in ICC Tourney knockouts will always remain as dark hollow in Kohli's career.

 

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2 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

In Post Match, 

 

Bob Willis-You can keep your Virat Kohli, Joe Root and KW to one side but this is batting from different stratosphere.

 

Alec Stewart-He is modern day Bradman.

:laugh: Bob Willis never minces his words.

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16 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Well there's more than 3 KO failures if you count all KO he's played in, however on the ether end he's done exceptionally well in 2 WT20's so there's that.

I wanted to specify ICC ODI Knockouts, He came good only CT final of 2013 which was rain derailed game, and played quite good knock in FINAL of 2011 wc, but one expects more than single digit score in KO from someone who is piling up runs at average of almost 100 (In 2018 his average is over 100)

 

IN T20s, he is without doubt best batsman.

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7 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

In Post innings show, 

 

Bob Willis-You can keep your Virat Kohli, Joe Root and KW to one side but this is batting from different stratosphere.

 

Alec Stewart-He is modern day Bradman.

Kane should not be understated. He scored runs in the semis and led his team to a WC final tie. Not to forget his masterclass 2nd innings display in the desert last year. He along with Smith is different gravy and clutch, its proven now. The Rat can take all his ODI records and build his brand.

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9 minutes ago, Bigg Brother said:

I wanted to specify ICC ODI Knockouts, He came good only CT final of 2013 which was rain derailed game, and played quite good knock in FINAL of 2011 wc, but one expects more than single digit score in KO from someone who is piling up runs at average of almost 100 (In 2018 his average is over 100)

 

IN T20s, he is without doubt best batsman.

He's played 10 KO in ICC ODI tourneys, has at best 2 or 3 good knocks. His best was in 2011 finals IMO, the win vs BD in 2017 CT was down to the bowlers on a super flat deck. I'd say given his reputation he has flopped badly, however I'll also add that he got out early each time & that's partly down to vulnerability of new batters at the crease. The point I'm making is that he isn't equipped to handle swing, seam in crunch games & unlike SS he doesn't always put his ego away (unlike his scripted responses when defending a loss) when things aren't going for him. In T20I we rarely see tough tracks, but yeah he's been great in that format.

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29 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

Kane should not be understated. He scored runs in the semis and led his team to a WC final tie. Not to forget his masterclass 2nd innings display in the desert last year. He along with Smith is different gravy and clutch, its proven now. The Rat can take all his ODI records and build his brand.

Agree. If anyone from fab four has best technique to play in tough conditions then it's Kane Williamson. 

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1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

I'd say SS' SF knock really moved his all round pedigree to a new level, there were many (including me) who said that Brat was the better overall batter however if you discount T20I SS is right now easily better in the other 2 formats. Even T20I he's been good but not godly, so yeah there's much room for improvement.

In odis Smith is a clutch player but he is not better than Kohli. Just because VVS laxman is clutch test Batsman, does it mean he is better than Tendulkar? 

If you apply the same logic then Gambhir > Tendulkar in Odis because he is more clutch player than Tendulkar.

 

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2 hours ago, R!TTER said:

I'd say SS' SF knock really moved his all round pedigree to a new level, there were many (including me) who said that Brat was the better overall batter however if you discount T20I SS is right now easily better in the other 2 formats. Even T20I he's been good but not godly, so yeah there's much room for improvement.

Knock in a lost cause like Dhoni in 2015 and 2019.

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24 minutes ago, Insidious said:

In odis Smith is a clutch player but he is not better than Kohli. Just because VVS laxman is clutch test Batsman, does it mean he is better than Tendulkar? 

If you apply the same logic then Gambhir > Tendulkar in Odis because he is more clutch player than Tendulkar.

Right like his 7 or 8 failures don't count, or do they :hmpf:

 

What logic is that? SRT has more good innings (albeit many in a losing cause) than VVS & against all oppositions home/away it also helps that he did play a lot more tests & batted higher as well, same applies vs GG although the latter has a sample set of 1 WC (vs 6) - if you didn't know that already.

VVS was a 4th innings specialist for sure but if you remove Oz, you can count his "great innings" on one finger against other oppositions.

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Apart from Gilchrist's innings in 2007 final, which other batsmen have scored in a knockout while chasing?

 

While Kohli is rightly castigated for failing in knockouts, we must also consider the fact that in most of the matches India was chasing. Smith, Ponting etc scored while batting first.

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I never said anything about that, conveniently this is the same argument used against SRT. However he failed batting first against Pak in 2011, BD in 2015 & that's it. You can count the CT 2013 final as a good innings, however it was T20 game at the end of it so I wouldn't put it anything beyond that.

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11 minutes ago, retired_hurt said:

Apart from Gilchrist's innings in 2007 final,

That was batting first, only Aravinda has scored a hundred while chasing IIRC, helped by the dew just like 2011 for us.

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I'm not sure why so many are trying to deny basic facts - fact (1) S is a better test bat than Brat.

 

(2) SS has 4 50+ scores in WC KO, Kohli has none (big 0) & has failed in most KO games (ODI) he's played in, the vast majority of them in fact.

 

(3) Kohli would still probably end up as a top 5 ODI bat, but Smith will be remembered (more) for his crucial WC innings even if most of them came batting first.

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41 minutes ago, retired_hurt said:

Apart from Gilchrist's innings in 2007 final, which other batsmen have scored in a knockout while chasing?

 

While Kohli is rightly castigated for failing in knockouts, we must also consider the fact that in most of the matches India was chasing. Smith, Ponting etc scored while batting first.

Then what is the point of being labelled as "Chase Master"?? 

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I am not denying that Kohli has been sub par in the world cups he has played or he has failed to delivered in the knockouts or he averages more batting second.

 

I am just adding some context that he has been unfortunate to be chasing in most of his knockout matches and the examples being given of mentally strong batsmen who have performed in pressure matches have also failed while batting second. 

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6 hours ago, Nikola said:

Agree. If anyone from fab four has best technique to play in tough conditions then it's Kane Williamson. 

Kane has the most classical technique, which is not the same as the "best" technique IMO. People like Chanders and Smith do have high technique, albeit of an unconventional kind.

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7 hours ago, SK_IH said:

Kane should not be understated. He scored runs in the semis and led his team to a WC final tie. Not to forget his masterclass 2nd innings display in the desert last year. He along with Smith is different gravy and clutch, its proven now. The Rat can take all his ODI records and build his brand.

Kane is IMO on par with Stewie as an ODI bat. But he has a way to go in Tests. Yes, there have been some masterclass innings in Tests too, but he has failed in 3 of the major test countries from a NZ perspective: an avg of 35 in Ind (so-so), avg of 30 in Eng (bad), and an avg of 21 in SA (damning). he may boost his SA avg because of their decline but what matters is being able to turn it on against Steyn and co during SA peak yrs.

 

Mind you, I am not trying to diss Kane here. Just saying that Stewie is the most "effective" test batsman in the world. Overall, my order in Tests is: Stewie > Kane > Rat > Root

 

In ODIs, if I go only by tournaments that matter (multi-nation ones), for me it is: Smith > Kane (but almost equal) > Kohli > Root

 

It is only in T20s where Rat and Root comfortably lead over the other 2.

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2 hours ago, Vijy said:

Kane is IMO on par with Stewie as an ODI bat. But he has a way to go in Tests. Yes, there have been some masterclass innings in Tests too, but he has failed in 3 of the major test countries from a NZ perspective: an avg of 35 in Ind (so-so), avg of 30 in Eng (bad), and an avg of 21 in SA (damning). he may boost his SA avg because of their decline but what matters is being able to turn it on against Steyn and co during SA peak yrs.

 

Mind you, I am not trying to diss Kane here. Just saying that Stewie is the most "effective" test batsman in the world. Overall, my order in Tests is: Stewie > Kane > Rat > Root

 

In ODIs, if I go only by tournaments that matter (multi-nation ones), for me it is: Smith > Kane (but almost equal) > Kohli > Root

 

It is only in T20s where Rat and Root comfortably lead over the other 2.

Actually Rat had some amazing form during his exquisite t20I exploits. He now plays mostly percentage cricket in t20s too like always but unlike when he was in tremendous form, I suspect he wouldn't be able to accelerate now till the next purple patch hits.

Edited by Pollack

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I don't use these automotive words for players, but yeah if Burns' turns it on this series then he'll gonna be Papa legba 2.0 :p:

 

As for SS his innings was against a moving bowl when the track was still fresh, in case you didn't notice. But hey by all means bring up context, like who's batting first or second in WC, when it suits you & completely forget about it when it doesn't suit you.

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8 hours ago, vayuu1 said:

Lo ji ab burns kiska papa hai,in his first match against Australia has scored a very crucial knock, ab wo bhi clutch,brake,accelarator ,gear player hai haina .

No need any logic here ,there is one person who is butthurt GOAT Rahul's fan release all his frustration on kohli. According to smith hundred there is nothing special the pitch is flat as pancake not a single ball moving and they lost Anderson within first over so basically they were playing with two man pace attack Barbie and Woakes .where Burns face Pattinson, Cummins  and Lyon and Siddle too which is far greater than two man pace attack.

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9 hours ago, R!TTER said:

I don't use these automotive words for players, but yeah if Burns' turns it on this series then he'll gonna be Papa legba 2.0 :p:

 

As for SS his innings was against a moving bowl when the track was still fresh, in case you didn't notice. But hey by all means bring up context, like who's batting first or second in WC, when it suits you & completely forget about it when it doesn't suit you.

nobody is denying Smith's grittiness, or kohlis abysmal odi knockout record, but Kohli too has had his fair share of clutch knocks in difficult conditions and situations, people here are forgetting that Anderson's impact in the English side and What's his absence mean, Kohli in Odis knockouts has been disappointing which is surprising considering  his performances in t20 knockouts and t20 wc, but then "har kisi ko ye mukaam nhi milta, kisi ko zameen kisi ko aasmaan nhi milta ".

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