Why Vedic Gods are absent in 4500 years old Indus Valley Civilisation?

[Alam_dar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Religion

 

Today, we have several Vedic Gods present in all Hindu houses. 

People of Indus civilization were also very good in making statues. Look at their craftsmanship. 

This is So-called "Priest King" statue, Mohenjo-daro, late Mature Harappan period, National Museum, Karachi, Pakistan.

 

And this is the The Dancing Girl of Mohenjo-daro; 2400–1900 BCE;

 

 

Why their script was totally different to the Vedic script?

Not only  there language was different, but also there is no hint of Sanskrit in whole of Indus Valley civilisation. 

Contrary to Sanskrit, their language resembles South Indian languages and belong to the the  proto-Dravidians group of languages. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Language

Stamp seals, some of them with Indus script

 

These stamps are again showing they were totally able to draw the Vedic Gods. 

 

But despite all this craftsmanship, there is no Vedic God has been found in the Indus Valley Civilisation.

 

Why?

 

Western researchers tell it is due to the reason that Aryans invaded after the fall of the Indus Valley civilisation i.e. about 4500 years ago. And they were the first one who initiated the Vedic religion. That is why Vedic gods are absent in the Indus Valley civilisation. 

 

But a part of Hindu researchers claim that this is a Western conspiracy against the Vedic religion. I don't think this is good enough proof/excuse by these Hindu researchers.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Alam_dar

[Alam_dar]

There were thousands of statues found in the Indus valley. Out of these thousands of statues, finally one Hindu researcher Swami Nathan was able to find ONE statue of Vedic God Indra.

 

 

A website by Swami Nathan claims about this image:

Indra is called Chakra [sic.: He is called "Shakra"] in Vedas. His mount is elephant Airavata.
Chakra is seen above his head in the tablet.
Indra is king as well as Chakravarthi(emperor).
Indus artistes followed west asian model in portraying him.
http://swamiindology.blogspot.com/2011/05/indra-in-indus-valley-with-airavata-and.html

However, the figure in the seal looks a bit like a woman with a breast and a big puff of hair, so I am skeptical that it is Indra. And I'm skeptical that it's a "chakra", because it looks like a Dharma wheel instead.

The same author says:

TIGER GODDESS

Photoconvex moulded tablet in Harappa museum shows a female figure fighting two tigers standing above an elephant ( I have interpreted this as Indra on Irawatha or Bharata who played with lions even when he was young. A chakra sign on top of the head may denote Indra’s name=chakra or Bharata= Eka Chakratipati).
https://tamilandvedas.com/2012/08/22/tiger-goddess-of-indus-valley/

So this author basically undermines his claim that it's Indra by saying that it's a "female figure" that he calls a "tiger goddess".

link.

 

And if this was really Indra and Indus valley population worshipped him, then don't you think that this Indra Chakra should be present more than "one" in the whole Indus Valley Region?

 

And with this craftsmanship, were Indus valley people not able to make better statues of Indra than the one which Swamy is using for his claim?

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Alam_dar

[coffee_rules]

Not just Indra, varuna, mitra were also worshipped in some form. Prominent is mother goddess and Pashupati ( Shiva) has roots from Sindhu Saraswathi civilization. They also worshipped Trees.

 

They were either preVedic or parallel to them and definitely there are some continuation signs in god worship, Yoga, meditation. 

 

Sanskrit was orally shared for 1000s of years and have been written in many scripts like Brahmi, Tamil, Kannada apart from becoming popular in Devanagiri fairly recently in the previous millenium. Sindhu Saraswathi script is not deciphered, but we dont know what language they spoke. 

 

Plus the signs of swastika, and some symbols used in yoga could be seen in their excavations.

Edited August 14, 2019 by coffee_rules

[Vilander]

Because of the way Sanatan dharma evolved and eventually synthesised to Vedic Hinduism.

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Religion

 

Today, we have several Vedic Gods present in all Hindu houses. 

People of Indus civilization were also very good in making statues. Look at their craftsmanship. 

This is So-called "Priest King" statue, Mohenjo-daro, late Mature Harappan period, National Museum, Karachi, Pakistan.

 

And this is the The Dancing Girl of Mohenjo-daro; 2400–1900 BCE;

 

 

Why their script was totally different to the Vedic script?

Not only  there language was different, but also there is no hint of Sanskrit in whole of Indus Valley civilisation. 

Contrary to Sanskrit, their language resembles South Indian languages and belong to the the  proto-Dravidians group of languages. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Language

Stamp seals, some of them with Indus script

 

These stamps are again showing they were totally able to draw the Vedic Gods. 

 

But despite all this craftsmanship, there is no Vedic God has been found in the Indus Valley Civilisation.

 

Why?

 

Western researchers tell it is due to the reason that Aryans invaded after the fall of the Indus Valley civilisation i.e. about 4500 years ago. And they were the first one who initiated the Vedic religion. That is why Vedic gods are absent in the Indus Valley civilisation. 

 

But a part of Hindu researchers claim that this is a Western conspiracy against the Vedic religion. I don't think this is good enough proof/excuse by these Hindu researchers.

Whole bunch of nonsense by Pakistani propaganda peddler. We don’t know what language IVC spoke. But Sanskrit is a language, not a script. Devanagari, the script used to write Sanskrit currently, is 1500 years old. Before that we had Gupta script, Tamil and Andhra Brahmi and before that, brahmi. 

 

The priest king is just someone’s modern guess. However we do have pashupati seal from IVC which closely resembles Shiva. 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

There were thousands of statues found in the Indus valley. Out of these thousands of statues, finally one Hindu researcher Swami Nathan was able to find ONE statue of Vedic God Indra.

 

 

A website by Swami Nathan claims about this image:

Indra is called Chakra [sic.: He is called "Shakra"] in Vedas. His mount is elephant Airavata.
Chakra is seen above his head in the tablet.
Indra is king as well as Chakravarthi(emperor).
Indus artistes followed west asian model in portraying him.
http://swamiindology.blogspot.com/2011/05/indra-in-indus-valley-with-airavata-and.html

However, the figure in the seal looks a bit like a woman with a breast and a big puff of hair, so I am skeptical that it is Indra. And I'm skeptical that it's a "chakra", because it looks like a Dharma wheel instead.

The same author says:

TIGER GODDESS

Photoconvex moulded tablet in Harappa museum shows a female figure fighting two tigers standing above an elephant ( I have interpreted this as Indra on Irawatha or Bharata who played with lions even when he was young. A chakra sign on top of the head may denote Indra’s name=chakra or Bharata= Eka Chakratipati).
https://tamilandvedas.com/2012/08/22/tiger-goddess-of-indus-valley/

So this author basically undermines his claim that it's Indra by saying that it's a "female figure" that he calls a "tiger goddess".

link.

 

And if this was really Indra and Indus valley population worshipped him, then don't you think that this Indra Chakra should be present more than "one" in the whole Indus Valley Region?

 

And with this craftsmanship, were Indus valley people not able to make better statues of Indra than the one which Swamy is using for his claim?

 

Dharma wheel is known as dharmachakra in all old literature you will ignorant fool 

[MechEng]

There is a seal of Lord Shiva in Mohenjo Daro.

[MechEng]

Just to satisfy your curiosity, some people have happen to find Ganesha idol in ancient Australia.

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_australia01.htm

Edited August 14, 2019 by MechEng

[Alam_dar]

4 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Not just Indra, varuna, mitra were also worshipped in some form. Prominent is mother goddess and Pashupati ( Shiva) has roots from Sindhu Saraswathi civilization. They also worshipped Trees.

 

They were either preVedic or parallel to them and definitely there are some continuation signs in god worship, Yoga, meditation. 

 

Sanskrit was orally shared for 1000s of years and have been written in many scripts like Brahmi, Tamil, Kannada apart from becoming popular in Devanagiri fairly recently in the previous millenium. Sindhu Saraswathi script is not deciphered, but we dont know what language they spoke. 

 

Plus the signs of swastika, and some symbols used in yoga could be seen in their excavations.

 

ok, let us assume your claim to be true that Sanskrit was the original spoken language in all regions in that time, including the Indus valley civilisation. Then it is very safe to assume that IVC people knew very very well the SIGNS of their gods. For example, signs of:

 

Brahma: He is said to have gown in a lotus out of the navel of the sleeping Vishnu.  He has four heads, but once had one, grew four more, and then lost one. 

Vishnu: He carries his symbols in his hands and often has a U shaped symbol on his forehead. 

Shiva: Hindus portray Shiva as sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

Ganesha: Who is also almost as old as first three (at least older than IVC people of 2000 BC) He is easily identified by his elephant head.  

 

 

So, the question is:

 

(1) How many of these main Hindu gods (with all these signs) have been found in IVC? 

ZERO?

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Why?

If these Vedic gods were worshipped in IVC too, then there should have been hundreds or thousands of their statues present there. 

 

(2) Let us return to claim about Indra. 

How much resemblance does this statue has with the description of Indra in Vedic texts? 

Where are his weapons like Vajra and Indra's Net?

And was Indra a woman in the Vedic Texts? What about the author's own contradiction when he declared this statue of a woman at other place? 

How many statues of Indra have been found? 
ONE?

Why only one? 

 

These were my basic questions, which have not been answered. 

 

Quote

there are some continuation signs in god worship

It is a wild wild guess. 

Using this much wild imagination, you could also make statues of Greek Gods to be the continuation of Vedic gods in one way or another. 

Here is Greek Indra (Zeus) with Vajra in his hand:

 

This Greek Indra has more resemblance to Vedic Indra as compared to the IVC Indra. 

 

Quote

They were either preVedic or parallel to them and definitely there are some continuation signs in god worship, Yoga, meditation. 

Pre-Vedic means that Vedic religion is less than 4500 years old, and Vedic gods are indeed not the the creators of this universe/world.

Parallel means also the same. 

Vedic Religion could only becomes truthful in it's claims, when it is proved that these Vedic gods were eternal (at least before the creation of this world and IVC people)

Therefore pre-Vedic or parallel is not going to work in light of the claims of the Vedic Religion. 

 

Continuation signs means "Evolution of Religion".

It is certainly possible that Later Coming Vedic religion adopted some practices of Older IVC practices. 

But again the problem arises if IVC becomes OLDER than Vedic religion, then Vedic religion is going to loose it's claims. 

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

ok, let us assume your claim to be true that Sanskrit was the original spoken language in all regions in that time, including the Indus valley civilisation. Then it is very safe to assume that IVC people knew very very well the SIGNS of their gods. For example, signs of:

 

Brahma: He is said to have gown in a lotus out of the navel of the sleeping Vishnu.  He has four heads, but once had one, grew four more, and then lost one. 

Vishnu: He carries his symbols in his hands and often has a U shaped symbol on his forehead. 

Shiva: Hindus portray Shiva as sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

Ganesha: Who is also almost as old as first three (at least older than IVC people of 2000 BC) He is easily identified by his elephant head.  

 

 

So, the question is:

 

(1) How many of these main Hindu gods (with all these signs) have been found in IVC? 

ZERO?

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Why?

If these Vedic gods were worshipped in IVC too, then there should have been hundreds or thousands of their statues present there. 

 

(2) Let us return to claim about Indra. 

How much resemblance does this statue has with the description of Indra in Vedic texts? 

Where are his weapons like Vajra and Indra's Net?

And was Indra a woman in the Vedic Texts? What about the author's own contradiction when he declared this statue of a woman at other place? 

How many statues of Indra have been found? 
ONE?

Why only one? 

 

These were my basic questions, which have not been answered. 

 

It is a wild wild guess. 

Using this much wild imagination, you could also make statues of Greek Gods to be the continuation of Vedic gods in one way or another. 

Here is Greek Indra (Zeus) with Vajra in his hand:

 

This Greek Indra has more resemblance to Vedic Indra as compared to the IVC Indra. 

 

Pre-Vedic means that Vedic religion is less than 4500 years old, and Vedic gods are indeed not the the creators of this universe/world.

Parallel means also the same. 

Vedic Religion could only becomes truthful in it's claims, when it is proved that these Vedic gods were eternal (at least before the creation of this world and IVC people)

Therefore pre-Vedic or parallel is not going to work in light of the claims of the Vedic Religion. 

 

Continuation signs means "Evolution of Religion".

It is certainly possible that Later Coming Vedic religion adopted some practices of Older IVC practices. 

But again the problem arises if IVC becomes OLDER than Vedic religion, then Vedic religion is going to loose it's claims. 

To support your claim, show us carvings of figurines of Vishnu Indra Brahma etc from 400 bc then....if Vedic religion is later than IVC because there are no depictions of Brahma or Vishnu, then by same standards Vedic gods are post Vedic age, since no depictions exist going back more than 200 bc. 

[Alam_dar]

3 hours ago, MechEng said:

There is a seal of Lord Shiva in Mohenjo Daro.

Here is this seal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal

 

And here is how Shiva looks like in Vedic religion, where he is sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

 

Have you seen the craftsmanship of the IVC people?

If Sanskrit was the spoken language of IVC, why then they missed this Vedic Vishnu?

And lastly, how many Vishnu's Statues (How many Seals of Lord Shiva) were discovered from the entire IVC? Only one? Please correct me if I am wrong. Why only one? 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Alam_dar said:

Here is this seal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal

 

And here is how Shiva looks like in Vedic religion, where he is sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

 

Have you seen the craftsmanship of the IVC people?

If Sanskrit was the spoken language of IVC, why then they missed this Vedic Vishnu?

And lastly, how many Vishnu's Statues (How many Seals of Lord Shiva) were discovered from the entire IVC? Only one? Please correct me if I am wrong. Why only one? 

 

Vishnu is later Vedic period God, fyi. How many religious seals or statues have been found in the IVC in the first place ? Answer is less than ten.....most of which show Pashupati. 

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Here is this seal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal

 

And here is how Shiva looks like in Vedic religion, where he is sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

 

Have you seen the craftsmanship of the IVC people?

If Sanskrit was the spoken language of IVC, why then they missed this Vedic Vishnu?

And lastly, how many Vishnu's Statues (How many Seals of Lord Shiva) were discovered from the entire IVC? Only one? Please correct me if I am wrong. Why only one? 

 

You are making it up like IVC was an advanced civilization. Only one dancing girl was found, only one priest statue was found.

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Here is this seal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashupati_seal

 

And here is how Shiva looks like in Vedic religion, where he is sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

 

Have you seen the craftsmanship of the IVC people?

If Sanskrit was the spoken language of IVC, why then they missed this Vedic Vishnu?

And lastly, how many Vishnu's Statues (How many Seals of Lord Shiva) were discovered from the entire IVC? Only one? Please correct me if I am wrong. Why only one? 

 

Gods like allah are all imaginations and their depictions might have changed with time.

[Alam_dar]

History of old cave Paintings in India:

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_paintings_in_India

Almost all early painting in India survives in caves, as very few buildings from Ancient India survive, and though these were probably often painted, the work has been lost. The history of cave paintings in India or rock art range from drawings and paintings from prehistoric times, beginning around 30,000 BCE in the caves of Central India, typified by those at the Bhimbetka rock shelters

 

Paintings in Bhimbetka caves / Wikimedia Commons, user LRBurdak, CC BY-SA 3.0

 

Cave painting at Bhimbetka.

 

 

While the oldest Statues in the world are about 30,000 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue

The Löwenmensch figurine from the Swabian Alps in Germany is the oldest known statuette in the world (it is just over a foot tall), and dates to 30,000-40,000 years ago.^[6][7][8] The Venus of Hohle Fels, from the same area, is somewhat later.^[9] From the ancient Near East, the over-life sized stone Urfa Man from modern Turkey comes from about 9,000 BC, and the 'Ain Ghazal Statues from around 7200 BC and 6500 BC. These are from modern Jordan, made of lime plaster and reeds, and about half life-size; there are 15 statues, some with two heads side by side, and 15 busts.

 

Now it has been claimed that the Vedic gods are the most ancient ones who actually created the world, the Vedic Civilizaiton is the most ancient one, and they possessed the best craftsmanship. 

But then how could we answer this question that the paintings of Vedic gods are not even 4500 years old, despite thousands of other paintings and statues surviving which are much older than 4500 years old? 

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

History of old cave Paintings in India:

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_paintings_in_India

Almost all early painting in India survives in caves, as very few buildings from Ancient India survive, and though these were probably often painted, the work has been lost. The history of cave paintings in India or rock art range from drawings and paintings from prehistoric times, beginning around 30,000 BCE in the caves of Central India, typified by those at the Bhimbetka rock shelters

 

Paintings in Bhimbetka caves / Wikimedia Commons, user LRBurdak, CC BY-SA 3.0

 

Cave painting at Bhimbetka.

 

 

While the oldest Statues in the world are about 30,000 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue

The Löwenmensch figurine from the Swabian Alps in Germany is the oldest known statuette in the world (it is just over a foot tall), and dates to 30,000-40,000 years ago.^[6][7][8] The Venus of Hohle Fels, from the same area, is somewhat later.^[9] From the ancient Near East, the over-life sized stone Urfa Man from modern Turkey comes from about 9,000 BC, and the 'Ain Ghazal Statues from around 7200 BC and 6500 BC. These are from modern Jordan, made of lime plaster and reeds, and about half life-size; there are 15 statues, some with two heads side by side, and 15 busts.

 

Now it has been claimed that the Vedic gods are the most ancient ones who actually created the world, the Vedic Civilizaiton is the most ancient one, and they possessed the best craftsmanship. 

But then how could we answer this question that the paintings of Vedic gods are not even 4500 years old, despite thousands of other paintings and statues surviving which are much older than 4500 years old? 

You are confused between vedic god and vedic period. Its vedic period that is 4500 years old, when vedas were written 

[Alam_dar]

23 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

You are making it up like IVC was an advanced civilization. Only one dancing girl was found, only one priest statue was found.

There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of other seals have been found in IVC like the Pashupati_seal or Indra god. 

[Alam_dar]

25 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Gods like allah are all imaginations and their depictions might have changed with time.

If Vedic gods are eternal and really created the world, and the Vedas were revealed (orally) thousands of years ago (before any Indus Valley like civilisation), then the depictions of Vedic gods could not change. 

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

You are confused between vedic god and vedic period. Its vedic period that is 4500 years old, when vedas were written 

We are not talking here about when Vedas were written, but we are talking about Vedic gods in ancient paintings and sculptures. 

There have been thousands of paintings and sculptures present which are older than 4500 years, but none of the Vedic god is present. 

[coffee_rules]

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

ok, let us assume your claim to be true that Sanskrit was the original spoken language in all regions in that time, including the Indus valley civilisation. Then it is very safe to assume that IVC people knew very very well the SIGNS of their gods. For example, signs of:

First, school yourself first about Dharma, God, abstractness,  Puranas, and depiction of gods and their evolution of depiction. Modern depiction of vedic gods are not to be confused with what was found and aged 5000 years ago. Don't equate the two..can't believe, this had to be said.

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Brahma: He is said to have gown in a lotus out of the navel of the sleeping Vishnu.  He has four heads, but once had one, grew four more, and then lost one. 

Vishnu: He carries his symbols in his hands and often has a U shaped symbol on his forehead. 

Shiva: Hindus portray Shiva as sitting upon a tiger or panther skin, having three white horizontal stripes upon his forehead, and a third vertical eye. 

Ganesha: Who is also almost as old as first three (at least older than IVC people of 2000 BC) He is easily identified by his elephant head.  

 

 

So, the question is:

 

(1) How many of these main Hindu gods (with all these signs) have been found in IVC? 

ZERO?

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Why?

No, you won't find the exact replica of modern depiction 5000 years ago with the modern technological advances. Are you a murkh to ask this?

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

If these Vedic gods were worshipped in IVC too, then there should have been hundreds or thousands of their statues present there. 

Excavations found 10 idols. You can't develop a theory over such min artificats. We found about few 1000s of fossils of dinos and extrapolated how many lived and their chars.  You form a major Invasion theory over a few artifacts found. It is ridiculous.

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

(2) Let us return to claim about Indra. 

How much resemblance does this statue has with the description of Indra in Vedic texts? 

Where are his weapons like Vajra and Indra's Net?

And was Indra a woman in the Vedic Texts? What about the author's own contradiction when he declared this statue of a woman at other place? 

How many statues of Indra have been found? 
ONE?

Why only one? 

It faqing means this was not the only one. Are you that stupid? Found is the key word. Some of the excavations had to be stopped because the waterbed was high, so don't go ny what was found in the excavations as the last word.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

These were my basic questions, which have not been answered. 

 

It is a wild wild guess. 

Using this much wild imagination, you could also make statues of Greek Gods to be the continuation of Vedic gods in one way or another. 

Here is Greek Indra (Zeus) with Vajra in his hand:

 

This Greek Indra has more resemblance to Vedic Indra as compared to the IVC Indra. 

 

Pre-Vedic means that Vedic religion is less than 4500 years old, and Vedic gods are indeed not the the creators of this universe/world.

Parallel means also the same. 

Vedic Religion could only becomes truthful in it's claims, when it is proved that these Vedic gods were eternal (at least before the creation of this world and IVC people)

Therefore pre-Vedic or parallel is not going to work in light of the claims of the Vedic Religion. 

You will not get any solid proof of a religion claims.   How do we know Jesus was born in Nazareth? I believe ithihaas is not exact fact like how science defines history, but you shouldn't rule out the whole thing as mythology. They have happened but not exactly how depicted.

 

48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Continuation signs means "Evolution of Religion".

 

It is certainly possible that Later Coming Vedic religion adopted some practices of Older IVC practices. 

But again the problem arises if IVC becomes OLDER than Vedic religion, then Vedic religion is going to loose it's claims. 

Ok, np, you don't believe in Vedas,it is fine, we accepted and respected non-believers who didn't believe in vedas (charvakas, Buddhists, Jains), proves this civilization was far more liberal than modern religions like Islam and Christianity.

[MechEng]

35 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

There are hundreds or perhaps thousands of other seals have been found in IVC like the Pashupati_seal or Indra god. 

That is a centaur. Half man half horse. 

 

Centaurs are present in Chronicles of Narnia movie.