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Why Vedic Gods are absent in 4500 years old Indus Valley Civilisation?


Alam_dar

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2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

If Vedic gods are eternal and really created the world, and the Vedas were revealed (orally) thousands of years ago (before any Indus Valley like civilisation), then the depictions of Vedic gods could not change. 

We are not talking here about when Vedas were written, but we are talking about Vedic gods in ancient paintings and sculptures. 

There have been thousands of paintings and sculptures present which are older than 4500 years, but none of the Vedic god is present. 

It is not necessary.  Maybe only from Vedic period people started worshiping them.

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Basically hindus(Indians) were all worshippers of nature. Even today here in Tamilnadu, we celebrate Pongal, which is a harvest festival praying to Sun and the gods that the year should be prosperous. There is aadi perukku where we worship the river cauvery (water). There are also instances where we Indians worship trees, in this instance pasupathi (pasu - cow). There are temples for snakes as well. The other gods came into picture when we needed a more human like form to pray, which is also essentially a part of nature. Since we can relate to this better, it has stayed with us for long. 

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2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

It is not necessary.  Maybe only from Vedic period people started worshiping them.

How old is then Mahabharata and earlier Ramain, which are claiming that population of India was the follower of Vedic gods?

 

Are you claiming that Mahabharata and Ramain are not even 4500 years old? 

 

And when were the oral Vedas were first orally told, and by whom if people didn't worship Vedic gods in that era? 

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ow much of Budhdhism or Jainism have survived history of last 600 years in that zone? Mother Earth takes it all. So trying to match everything on basis of archeological excavations of 6000 years back is impossible. Specially if that zone is under Pakistanis

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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

How old is then Mahabharata and earlier Ramain, which are claiming that population of India was the follower of Vedic gods?

 

Are you claiming that Mahabharata and Ramain are not even 4500 years old? 

 

And when were the oral Vedas were first orally told, and by whom if people didn't worship Vedic gods in that era? 

Scientific hat on. No religious stuff. Please dont get offended.

Calculate the age of link between India and Srilanka i.e Ram Setu when it was not submerged based on sea level rise and Indian plate (techtonic plate theory) tilt.  It comes about 1.7 million old when channel between India and Srilanka would have been connected by land. Thats age of Ramayana.

 

You will also notice that main characters were a cross. Ram was darker then rest of population, so definitely , he was result of cross breeding.

 

Lord Shiva aka "Adi Shakti (ancient Energy)" was all black. So he is definitely pure Black person. He was referred a lot of times in Ramayana. Nowhere near that In "Mahabharata" Story is white Sages cut down his Linga for all their women were attracted to it. Now you can put critical hat on and figure out what really happened. Its his Linga aka brute term Penis which represent fertility which is worshipped all across.


 

So it was a period of cross breeding. IMO, There was indigenous population In India which wasnt all black.  SriLankans had Ravana which was black and had a army of blacks. Few women (very few women) were black. Infact Vibhishana a brother of Ravana is not all black. So Srilanka too was in a era of cross breeding. Remember, The fight against Ram vs Ravana is for Woman. Not black woman. Ravana has been linked with disrespting woman or taking  women captive from mainland India

 

 

In Mahabharata, apart from Lord Krishna, there were not many Blacks. Also Lord Krishna was definitely a cross between a black and someone else. Infact all other gods arent black.

 

In Ramayana, they were adept in arrows and mace. Although Shiva had trident.

In Mahabharata main characters are adept in arrow, mace but spear too.

In modern India, all Indians are black or a shade of black

Edited by mishra
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New Updates:

 

(1) I failed to find the 10 idols of Hindu Gods in Indus Valley Civilisation excavations.  Can someone present the list of these 10 idols here?

 

(2) Pashupati Seal:
The figure in this seals was claimed to be Lord Shiva, while there are animals present here, and figure is sitting in Yoga position. 
 

330px-Shiva_Pashupati.jpg

 

But this claim does not hold much value. 

Actually, a similar thing is found in old Celtic religion too:

 

Lord Cernunnos 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

https://bohemianglade.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/cernunnos/

 

 

cernunnos.jpg?w=652

 

The Horned God goes by many names : Cernnunos, Pan, Herne … and he does not represent evil, but the masculine element in nature. As the hunter he takes life, but he also gives life. “The horned god of the Celts is Cernunnos. The image of Cernunnos appears on the Gundestrup Cauldron where the horned god, an antlered man seated in a cross-legged pose, holds a ram-headed snake, and wear two torcs. The god’s name is found only once in the archaeological record, on a stone frieze of an elderly man with antlers and torcs.
Cernunnos is Lord of the Animals, and, in Celtic lore, is the master of the Wild Hunt. He has associations with prosperity and fertility. An important characteristic of Celtic myth and legend is zoomorphism, the transmogrification of humans to animals and animals to humans. Since zoomorphism is also linked to shamanism, it strengthens the connection between the central European origins of the Celts and the plains tribes of the Russian steppes, where shamanism first sprang up.
 

 

(3) 

210px-Mohenjo-daro_Priesterk%C3%B6nig.jp

This is So-called "Priest King" statue, Mohenjo-daro, late Mature Harappan period, National Museum, Karachi, Pakistan.

Again this statue seems to be closer to the Persian Art than the ancient Indian art. 

 

persepolis-sight-iran-ancient-persia-260

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

New Updates:

 

(1) I failed to find the 10 idols of Hindu Gods in Indus Valley Civilisation excavations.  Can someone present the list of these 10 idols here?

 

(2) Pashupati Seal:
The figure in this seals was claimed to be Lord Shiva, while there are animals present here, and figure is sitting in Yoga position. 
 

330px-Shiva_Pashupati.jpg

 

But this claim does not hold much value. 

Actually, a similar thing is found in old Celtic religion too:

 

Lord Cernunnos 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernunnos

https://bohemianglade.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/cernunnos/

 

 

cernunnos.jpg?w=652

 

The Horned God goes by many names : Cernnunos, Pan, Herne … and he does not represent evil, but the masculine element in nature. As the hunter he takes life, but he also gives life. “The horned god of the Celts is Cernunnos. The image of Cernunnos appears on the Gundestrup Cauldron where the horned god, an antlered man seated in a cross-legged pose, holds a ram-headed snake, and wear two torcs. The god’s name is found only once in the archaeological record, on a stone frieze of an elderly man with antlers and torcs.
Cernunnos is Lord of the Animals, and, in Celtic lore, is the master of the Wild Hunt. He has associations with prosperity and fertility. An important characteristic of Celtic myth and legend is zoomorphism, the transmogrification of humans to animals and animals to humans. Since zoomorphism is also linked to shamanism, it strengthens the connection between the central European origins of the Celts and the plains tribes of the Russian steppes, where shamanism first sprang up.
 

 

(3) 

210px-Mohenjo-daro_Priesterk%C3%B6nig.jp

This is So-called "Priest King" statue, Mohenjo-daro, late Mature Harappan period, National Museum, Karachi, Pakistan.

Again this statue seems to be closer to the Persian Art than the ancient Indian art. 

 

persepolis-sight-iran-ancient-persia-260

 

 

 

It seems you did a driveby on the wikipedia article on pashupati seal :lol: . I know for certain that you are trolling but I'll engage. In logical terms, we have this term known as the occam's razor. it says the simplest answer is more likely the right one. Regarding the pashupati seal itself, it shows the deity sitting in a yoga position known as mulabandha yoga. Siva has many names one of em is adhiyogi meaning the primal yogi or the first yogi. He is said to have invented yoga or given yoga to mankind.

All modern science does is they say they need empirical proof that such things were practised millenia ago meaning it cannot be proven. All history and archaeology does is bullshit and they are paid to say what certain powerful groups want them to say. While Christian and Islamic groups do it the cheap and unscientific ways sometimes even gruesome, the "scientific" groups do it under the guise of science and you encounter empirical proof to ward you off. This also helps in more dollars to do more "research" for the "scientific" community to keep this BS going.

You can't be an independent researcher in this time and day. Go to IVC site (actual site not a website :laugh: ) and ask the authorities to have a personal look close by. They won't allow it. As for examining the priest king statue, the mohenjodaro one resembles more of an Indian priestly robe than a persian one. He doesn't have a hat like the persian and wears a cloth over his chest which is worn in an Indian style. The Persian one resembles the one worn by the pharisees in jesus' time. The name pharisees itself is an English translation of the word parsis. No Indian priests wore a hat. It seems you like most bakis like to associate with those who've invaded you in the past rather than admit you have Indic roots.

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What's so surprising here. Religions evolve when they come in contact with other peoples and belief systems. Just like Allah the monotheistic god emerged from the state of flux in Arabia when Arab paganism met the monotheistic traditions of Christianity and Judaism . An arbitrary deity from the previous pantheon was reborn and reshaped into a strict monotheistic tradition we recognise now as Islam. The same way the god of the Hebrew Bible emerged from the Canaanite pantheon. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

It seems you did a driveby on the wikipedia article on pashupati seal :lol: . I know for certain that you are trolling but I'll engage. In logical terms, we have this term known as the occam's razor. it says the simplest answer is more likely the right one. Regarding the pashupati seal itself, it shows the deity sitting in a yoga position known as mulabandha yoga. Siva has many names one of em is adhiyogi meaning the primal yogi or the first yogi. He is said to have invented yoga or given yoga to mankind.

Logically speaking, if it was really a Yoga position by Lord Shiva in Pashupati Seal, then there should have been many of such Yogas seals, and yoga paintings and yoga sculptures found in the Indus Valley Civilisation excavations. 

 

There are thousands of seals with people in them, but none of them doing yoga, or prostrating the Lord Shiva. 

 

And then comes the Lord Cernunnos from the Steppes of Russian and Central Asia, and he is also sitting in Yoga position, along with animals. I wonder if any one could miss the resemblance between Pashupati Seal and Lord Cernunnos. 

 

cernunnos.jpg?w=652

 

 

 

Quote

All modern science does is they say they need empirical proof that such things were practised millenia ago meaning it cannot be proven. All history and archaeology does is bullshit and they are paid to say what certain powerful groups want them to say. While Christian and Islamic groups do it the cheap and unscientific ways sometimes even gruesome, the "scientific" groups do it under the guise of science and you encounter empirical proof to ward you off. This also helps in more dollars to do more "research" for the "scientific" community to keep this BS going.

You can't be an independent researcher in this time and day. Go to IVC site (actual site not a website :laugh: ) and ask the authorities to have a personal look close by. They won't allow it. As for examining the priest king statue, the mohenjodaro one resembles more of an Indian priestly robe than a persian one. He doesn't have a hat like the persian and wears a cloth over his chest which is worn in an Indian style. The Persian one resembles the one worn by the pharisees in jesus' time. The name pharisees itself is an English translation of the word parsis. No Indian priests wore a hat. It seems you like most bakis like to associate with those who've invaded you in the past rather than admit you have Indic roots.

I don't agree with this in case of Indus Valley Civilisation. 

 

(1) It was not Pakistan, but it were the Britishers who started the excavations of Harrap and Mohinjodaro. But nothing could be found during whole British era which proves that those people followed the Hindu Religion or even knew about Hinduism. 

 

(2) Secondly, there are many cities of Indus Valley Civilisation which lie in present day India. There are thousands of such excavations been done in present day India (in the cities of  Dholavira, Ganeriwala in Cholistan, and Rakhigarhi), but still no proof was found which binds Indus Valley with the Hindu Religion. 

 

Indus_Valley_Civilization,_Mature_Phase_

 

 

(3) And look at the cave paintings (see above in my posts). None of the cave paintings in whole of India shows presence of any Hindu God, or any Hindu Temple, or any thing related to Hindu religion. 

 

We start finding presence of Hindu religion only  about 3500 years ago in whole of India. 

 

I am an atheist and if Hindu friends make claims that Hindu Religion was practised in India since the creation of this world, then they should better come up with very solid proofs. In the present day modern world, I am afraid that old religious stories are not going to convince the modern educated people, who believe more in science than old religious fairy tales. 

 

 

PS:
Hat is not an issue. There are Persian sculptures even without hat. 

Ancient+Persian+-+Tutt%2527Art%2540+-+%2

Edited by Alam_dar
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17 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

What's so surprising here. Religions evolve when they come in contact with other peoples and belief systems. Just like Allah the monotheistic god emerged from the state of flux in Arabia when Arab paganism met the monotheistic traditions of Christianity and Judaism . An arbitrary deity from the previous pantheon was reborn and reshaped into a strict monotheistic tradition we recognise now as Islam. The same way the god of the Hebrew Bible emerged from the Canaanite pantheon. 

 

It is not the evolution of Religion. 

Evolution is a science, while Religions are only the fairy tales, invented by some person to deceive others. 

Judaism, Christianity and Islam look similar while they came at the same place and thus the older religious stories were repeated with only the addition of Jesus and Muhammad. This is not evolution, but this is cheating the older stuff for personal gains. 

While ALL other religions, which didn't come in this region, they were totally different than these 3 religions. 

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1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

Logically speaking, if it was really a Yoga position by Lord Shiva in Pashupati Seal, then there should have been many of such Yogas seals, and yoga paintings and yoga sculptures found in the Indus Valley Civilisation excavations. 

Again you are asking empirical evidence from a civilization thats millenia old. What do you mean by yoga seals, paintings lol. They just put their deity on it. Yogic posture is supported by his pose. I don't know why you are persisting with this topic unless you are another missionary troll bent on conversion.

 

There are thousands of seals with people in them, but none of them doing yoga, or prostrating the Lord Shiva. 

Their is no seals portraying people prostrating to anyone in any seals. You can check throughout the world. I didn't say they were prostrating. Why would you bring this up

And then comes the Lord Cernunnos from the Steppes of Russian and Central Asia, and he is also sitting in Yoga position, along with animals. I wonder if any one could miss the resemblance between Pashupati Seal and Lord Cernunnos. 

Cernunos is not in a yoga position. He is just sitting with folded legs. folded legs doesnt constitute yoga. And how did you find the similarity. By checking the wiki article?

 

 

 

I don't agree with this in case of Indus Valley Civilisation. 

That's your opinion not fact.

(1) It was not Pakistan, but it were the Britishers who started the excavations of Harrap and Mohinjodaro. But nothing could be found during whole British era which proves that those people followed the Hindu Religion or even knew about Hinduism. 

 

(2) Secondly, there are many cities of Indus Valley Civilisation which lie in present day India. There are thousands of such excavations been done in present day India (in the cities of  Dholavira, Ganeriwala in Cholistan, and Rakhigarhi), but still no proof was found which binds Indus Valley with the Hindu Religion. 

 

 

 

(3) And look at the cave paintings (see above in my posts). None of the cave paintings in whole of India shows presence of any Hindu God, or any Hindu Temple, or any thing related to Hindu religion. 

 

We start finding presence of Hindu religion only  about 3500 years ago in whole of India. 

 

I am an atheist and if Hindu friends make claims that Hindu Religion was practised in India since the creation of this world, then they should better come up with very solid proofs. In the present day modern world, I am afraid that old religious stories are not going to convince the modern educated people, who believe more in science than old religious fairy tales. 

 

 

PS:
Hat is not an issue. There are Persian sculptures even without hat. 

Blah blah blah. Take it on another tangent. Would you say IVC belongs to the Indian subcontinent or Persia. That should answer the question.

Answer in bold

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On 8/14/2019 at 5:25 PM, Muloghonto said:

Whole bunch of nonsense by Pakistani propaganda peddler. We don’t know what language IVC spoke. But Sanskrit is a language, not a script. Devanagari, the script used to write Sanskrit currently, is 1500 years old. Before that we had Gupta script, Tamil and Andhra Brahmi and before that, brahmi. 

 

The priest king is just someone’s modern guess. However we do have pashupati seal from IVC which closely resembles Shiva. 

You missed the key part 

Quote

Western researchers tell it is due to the reason that Aryans invaded after the fall of the Indus Valley civilisation i.e. about 4500 years ago. And they were the first one who initiated the Vedic religion. That is why Vedic gods are absent in the Indus Valley civilisation.

 He's just trying to peddle his AIT agenda again. 

 

 

 

Edited by Moochad
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On 8/14/2019 at 7:02 PM, Alam_dar said:

History of old cave Paintings in India:

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_paintings_in_India

Almost all early painting in India survives in caves, as very few buildings from Ancient India survive, and though these were probably often painted, the work has been lost. The history of cave paintings in India or rock art range from drawings and paintings from prehistoric times, beginning around 30,000 BCE in the caves of Central India, typified by those at the Bhimbetka rock shelters

 

Bhimbetka5.jpg

Paintings in Bhimbetka caves / Wikimedia Commons, user LRBurdak, CC BY-SA 3.0

 

465px-Bhimbetka_Cave_Paintings.jpg

Cave painting at Bhimbetka.

 

 

While the oldest Statues in the world are about 30,000 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue

The Löwenmensch figurine from the Swabian Alps in Germany is the oldest known statuette in the world (it is just over a foot tall), and dates to 30,000-40,000 years ago.[6][7][8] The Venus of Hohle Fels, from the same area, is somewhat later.[9] From the ancient Near East, the over-life sized stone Urfa Man from modern Turkey comes from about 9,000 BC, and the 'Ain Ghazal Statues from around 7200 BC and 6500 BC. These are from modern Jordan, made of lime plaster and reeds, and about half life-size; there are 15 statues, some with two heads side by side, and 15 busts.

 

Now it has been claimed that the Vedic gods are the most ancient ones who actually created the world, the Vedic Civilizaiton is the most ancient one, and they possessed the best craftsmanship. 

But then how could we answer this question that the paintings of Vedic gods are not even 4500 years old, despite thousands of other paintings and statues surviving which are much older than 4500 years old? 

LoL. What westerners call Venus or mother Goddess, Hindus call Aditi. Thank you for proving that Aditi is 30,000 years old. 

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