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veer

How crazy is US-Saudi relationship?!

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Iran attacked Saudi Arabia's oil fields and US is up in arms and threats already.. 

 

WTF... 15 of 19 hijackers from 9/11 were Saudi Origins.. I dont get what is that Saudis holding on USA to have this kinda f'ed up relation...

 

Can someone clarify? It can't be just oil

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16 minutes ago, veer said:

Iran attacked Saudi Arabia's oil fields and US is up in arms and threats already.. 

 

WTF... 15 of 19 hijackers were from 9/11 were Saudi Origins.. I dont get what is that Saudis holding on USA to have this kinda f'ed up relation...

 

Can someone clarify? It can't be just o

 

Edited by veer

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Off the top of my head:

1)

Petro-dollar is a big reason, read a short summary here:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp

 

2)

Saudi nationals were responsible for 9/11, but SA itself has been generally on the same side as the US on many of the geopolitical issues arising in that region. It would be tough for someone to show a SA government link to 9/11, and for that theoretical link to be a big enough deal for the US-SA partnership to be put in jeopardy.  

 

3)

Possible Relgio-cultural component:

The majority of the US population historically has been Protestant-Christian. This religious group has many similarities with Sunni-Islam on some fundamental tenants. This goes back to the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, who himself stated at one time that he felt more in common with Turks than with Catholics, the latter of which are fellow "Christians"(in reality Protestants and Catholics haven't considered the other as true Christians over history; just like Sunnis vs Shia)  This may be a factor. 

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13 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Off the top of my head:

1)

Petro-dollar is a big reason, read a short summary here:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp

 

2)

Saudi nationals were responsible for 9/11, but SA itself has been generally on the same side as the US on many of the geopolitical issues arising in that region. It would be tough for someone to show a SA government link to 9/11, and for that theoretical link to be a big enough deal for the US-SA partnership to be put in jeopardy.  

 

3)

Possible Relgio-cultural component:

The majority of the US population historically has been Protestant-Christian. This religious group has many similarities with Sunni-Islam on some fundamental tenants. This goes back to the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, who himself stated at one time that he felt more in common with Turks than with Catholics, the latter of which are fellow "Christians"(in reality Protestants and Catholics haven't considered the other as true Christians over history; just like Sunnis vs Shia)  This may be a factor. 

You missed Shia Sunni rivalry. Saudi kings need to have a healthy relationship with West and specially US to contain Iran and its developing influence in Mid east. 

Israel comes in picture too.

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It's as simple as oil.

 

The US consumer economy is so heavily driven by petrol (or gas as they call it) prices at the pump. Even with shale making up alot American consumption, the oil price is set globally and with with Saudi's vast reserves they can control that price. 

 

Having been to US several times, it's still amazes me people driving around everywhere because lack of public transport, cars with massive 100 litre tanks, doing 7 km per litre!, I have heard how even a 10% rise at gas pumps can knock off consumer confidence big time in US. 

 

US wanted same control/relationship with Venezuela and Iran (No1 and No 4 with proven oil reserves) but they didn't play ball and no surprise both being fecked by Americans. Iraq is the other with big oil reserves and look what happened to them.

 

The electric car revolution can't come quick enough (as long as source of power is not fossil fuel based!) 

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10 hours ago, mishra said:

You missed Shia Sunni rivalry. Saudi kings need to have a healthy relationship with West and specially US to contain Iran and its developing influence in Mid east. 

Israel comes in picture too.

I think one time they were friendly with both Iran and Saudi when the Shah was in charge of Iran 

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19 hours ago, mishra said:

You missed Shia Sunni rivalry. Saudi kings need to have a healthy relationship with West and specially US to contain Iran and its developing influence in Mid east. 

Israel comes in picture too.

There is also the case that the Saudi royal family is somewhat of a bulwark against some things much worse. Although they allow all kinds of stuff in those countries that non-Islamic people find uncouth, they don't fully implement sharia like ISIS does. The Arabian monarchies arguably prevent the rising of a more legitimate version of the Islamic State. 

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On 9/18/2019 at 4:30 AM, Ranvir said:

Just look at how close the Bush and Bin Laden families were. There is definitely something fishy in the relationship between the two countries.

That is why 9/11 was an inside job to gain an excuse to invade middle East again.

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21 minutes ago, MechEng said:

That is why 9/11 was an inside job to gain an excuse to invade middle East again.

You too. Man, sometimes fanatics go out of control of their Government. Its simple as that.

In mid east Shias are fighting Sunnis. Whole Al Qaeda or ISIS were started with one motive. War against Kaafirs and bring about rule of Sharia. As they say, charity begans at home, so they try to cleanse defeat Shia Kaafirs. But then fanatics start believing that Holy war of theirs has supprt of god and hence they are winning. 

And they try to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

PS: ISIS became a terror group after a document came into hand of Saudis about how they really wanted to take over Whole of Mid east including Saudi Arabia. Prior to that, they were freedom fighters. Same with Taliban, Alqaeda and others

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12 hours ago, Moochad said:

I think one time they were friendly with both Iran and Saudi when the Shah was in charge of Iran 

Yes, shah of Iran , CIA papers reveal that. Arab spring happens in Shia states, while Turkey is Nato member. Houthis in Yemen go unreported or reported as rebels and Brits and American keep selling weapons to Sauds to contain Houthis.

 

2 hours ago, Tibarn said:

There is also the case that the Saudi royal family is somewhat of a bulwark against some things much worse. Although they allow all kinds of stuff in those countries that non-Islamic people find uncouth, they don't fully implement sharia like ISIS does. The Arabian monarchies arguably prevent the rising of a more legitimate version of the Islamic State. 

Royal family is in power. It has 3 key objectives.

1. Stay in power

2. Spread sunni Islam

3. Stop Shia Islam/Iran

 

So its fight for survival for them. So they use Petrodollar 

Edited by mishra

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7 hours ago, mishra said:

You too. Man, sometimes fanatics go out of control of their Government. Its simple as that.

In mid east Shias are fighting Sunnis. Whole Al Qaeda or ISIS were started with one motive. War against Kaafirs and bring about rule of Sharia. As they say, charity begans at home, so they try to cleanse defeat Shia Kaafirs. But then fanatics start believing that Holy war of theirs has supprt of god and hence they are winning. 

And they try to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

PS: ISIS became a terror group after a document came into hand of Saudis about how they really wanted to take over Whole of Mid east including Saudi Arabia. Prior to that, they were freedom fighters. Same with Taliban, Alqaeda and others

Middle East terror was created by US to break Soviet Union.

 

Underestimate US at your own risk, they not only have the best weapons but also the best social engineering and psychological warfare strategies.

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The amount of donations which comes from Saudis into United States private universities, can't be ignored. Look at Georgetown's School of Foreign Service, the best foreign policy/international relations university probably in the whole world, based in the heart of the capital city. Who donates the most chunk into that Catholic expensive private  university? Saudis and Kuwaities etc. Arab's are throwing ina  lot of money to US Colleges regularly and also expanding the Arabic language and Arabic courses throughout US Universities. Their is a mutual relationship now in sending the best of the best Arab students to these top US Institutions on scholarships and vice-versa. 

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22 hours ago, mishra said:

Royal family is in power. It has 3 key objectives.

1. Stay in power

2. Spread sunni Islam

3. Stop Shia Islam/Iran

 

So its fight for survival for them. So they use Petrodollar 

Number two is the part the Saudi royals struggle with. They like to spread Sunni Islam, Wahabbi variety, IIRC, but they themselves don't adhere to it strictly. 

 

I think the conflict with Shia Islam really increased after the Shah was overthrown, as before that both Iran and SA were US allies. 

 

It's also not a coincidence that Israel, SA, and the US are all against Iran currently, while there isn't much Israel vs SA news ever. 

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4 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Number two is the part the Saudi royals struggle with. They like to spread Sunni Islam, Wahabbi variety, IIRC, but they themselves don't adhere to it strictly. 

 

I think the conflict with Shia Islam really increased after the Shah was overthrown, as before that both Iran and SA were US allies. 

 

It's also not a coincidence that Israel, SA, and the US are all against Iran currently, while there isn't much Israel vs SA news ever. 

The conflict of Shia Sunni is the cover for regional geopolitics. Having lived in the Middle East, I know that the arabs are highly insecure of Iran and it’s historic dominance of the ME. They see Iran as unstoppable natural leader of ME which has everything : lots of oil, more tech expertise than anyone of them and a 60-70 million strong population base. They saw Turkey as the only counter to Iran but see Turkey as unreliable, being more concerned with EU and Russia than sole focus on ME like Iran.

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6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The conflict of Shia Sunni is the cover for regional geopolitics. Having lived in the Middle East, I know that the arabs are highly insecure of Iran and it’s historic dominance of the ME. They see Iran as unstoppable natural leader of ME which has everything : lots of oil, more tech expertise than anyone of them and a 60-70 million strong population base. They saw Turkey as the only counter to Iran but see Turkey as unreliable, being more concerned with EU and Russia than sole focus on ME like Iran.

Arabs/Saudis have reason to be optimistic here, Iran is running out of friends and the US is hellbent on overthrowing their current government...

 

Even India is reducing the relationship with Iran now under US pressure, putting Chabahar port under jeopardy... 

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23 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Arabs/Saudis have reason to be optimistic here, Iran is running out of friends and the US is hellbent on overthrowing their current government...

 

Even India is reducing the relationship with Iran now under US pressure, putting Chabahar port under jeopardy... 

Well that’s true and sad. China is gonna cash in and Iran regime change may be a thing. We will see. However Iran and India will always have reasons to cooperate and those reasons will exist into foreseeable future. 

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On 9/19/2019 at 6:41 PM, Tibarn said:

There is also the case that the Saudi royal family is somewhat of a bulwark against some things much worse. Although they allow all kinds of stuff in those countries that non-Islamic people find uncouth, they don't fully implement sharia like ISIS does. The Arabian monarchies arguably prevent the rising of a more legitimate version of the Islamic State. 

The bulwark argument I don't agree with. After all the Americans had no issue s toppling dictators like Saddam , who for all his faults kept Islamist fundamentalists in check, to pursue their national interest. 

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On 9/21/2019 at 1:22 AM, Nikhil_cric said:

The bulwark argument I don't agree with. After all the Americans had no issue s toppling dictators like Saddam , who for all his faults kept Islamist fundamentalists in check, to pursue their national interest. 

That's a fair point, but I would say, IMO, that Saudi Arabia is not comparable to other Islamic countries. It is the seat of power/center of the Islamic world. If their and the other Arab monarchies governments topple, a more legitimate Islamic State could be established IMO.

 

Then again, the US has toppled or helped destabilize several Islamic countries' governments over recent history, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan, etc, but whether a "secular" dictator of an Islamic government the US seemed to think it could engage in nation-building and spread liberal-democracy to them, so maybe the US is dumb enough to think they could do it in SA as well, despite their repeated failures. 

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5 hours ago, Tibarn said:

That's a fair point, but I would say, IMO, that Saudi Arabia is not comparable to other Islamic countries. It is the seat of power/center of the Islamic world. If their and the other Arab monarchies governments topple, a more legitimate Islamic State could be established IMO.

 

Then again, the US has toppled or helped destabilize several Islamic countries' governments over recent history, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan, etc, but whether a "secular" dictator of an Islamic government the US seemed to think it could engage in nation-building and spread liberal-democracy to them, so maybe the US is dumb enough to think they could do it in SA as well, despite their repeated failures. 

You hit the nail smack on its head re: uniqueness of Saudi Arabia. We do not want a democratic government there since the Arab revolution has shown how islamists are extremely adept at exploiting democracy in Muslim majority countries and an ISIS Khalif or Ameer ul momeneen sermonizing from the Kaaba will be far more potent a force 

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On 9/20/2019 at 11:17 PM, Muloghonto said:

Well that’s true and sad. China is gonna cash in and Iran regime change may be a thing. We will see. However Iran and India will always have reasons to cooperate and those reasons will exist into foreseeable future. 

If China gets close with Iran, they will suddenly have the Bakistan-Iran relationship as a headache. The Bakistanis have threatened to nuke Iran at one point IIRC, and they have had firing between their forces on that border.  

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9 hours ago, Tibarn said:

If China gets close with Iran, they will suddenly have the Bakistan-Iran relationship as a headache. The Bakistanis have threatened to nuke Iran at one point IIRC, and they have had firing between their forces on that border.  

Yep. The problem of Iran in China isn’t a big one IMO unless Indian MEA really bollocked it up. This is because any infrastructure link between Iran and Central Asia will automatically help India, regardless of what China gets out of it. 

 

We we have to strategically turn the relation with India where it permanently favours India. And this will happen when Iran’s infrastructure is ready with CA and Russia. India would be the upper hand partner to Iran if played well, like Europe is to Egypt, as Egypt derives enormous benefit to being transit country for EU. Iran will be for us and I believe it will be a situation that will favour Indian and Iran( India more so). 

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