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How does Ashwin-Jadeja stack up against Kumble-Harbhajan?

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R Ashwin and Ravindra Jadeja are more successful as a pair than Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh were - it's a fact. After all, India have now won 25 of the 33 Tests Ashwin and Jadeja have played together as compared to just 21 out of 54 for Kumble and Harbhajan.

So, are they are just better match-winners? Or are there other explanations for the fairly large statistical gap between the two pairs? Harbhajan has himself tweeted about how pitches in India offer more spin now than before. It's also true that Kumble and he played more Tests together overseas. Then there is a difference in the quality of India's support bowling cast. And, perhaps, opposition batsmen were better against spin then than they are now.

So how do the numbers compare when we try to take at least some of these factors into account?

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The home-and-away factor

First, we limit the comparison to home Tests. Kumble and Harbhajan played 20 Tests outside India, while Ashwin and Jadeja have played just four. With India finding a set of impressive pace bowlers over the past decade, there has not been a need to play two spinners in places such as South Africa, England and Australia. But, even in home Tests, Ashwin and Jadeja have a superior bowling average and strike rate than Kumble and Harbhajan. The team has also been more successful of late: India have won 22 and lost only one out of 29 Tests Ashwin and Jadeja have played together at home. In comparison, India won 14 out of 34 with Kumble and Harbhajan in the XI.

 

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Who got the friendlier pitches?

Have Indian pitches been more spin-friendly in the Ashwin-Jadeja era as Harbhajan feels?

It's hard to measure, but when you look at the records of other spinners - both for and against India - playing in the same games as Kumble and Harbhajan, they averaged 41.11 compared to the 42.82 that spinners playing alongside or against Ashwin-Jadeja have.

Before concluding that the pitches have been more or less the same, let's look at who we are talking about. When Kumble and Harbhajan were playing, Shane Warne, Muttiah Muralitharan, Saqlain Mushtaq and Danish Kaneria all toured India. Of these, only Saqlain outbowled the Indians. During Ashwin and Jadeja's time, the quality of visiting spinners has not been nearly as good, but when Nathan Lyon came with Australia in 2017, Ashwin and Jadeja, as a duo, did better than he did. It's hard to say what Muralitharan and Warne may have done on the pitches India have prepared over the past few years - not to mention the difference in the quality of the Indian batsmen too. Equally, it's tough to measure whether batsmen of the past would have played Ashwin and Jadeja better

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The support cast

One significant difference between the time Kumble and Harbhajan bowled together - 1998 to 2008 - and now is that India's seam attack is much better. Ashwin and Jadeja have Ishant Sharma, Mohammed Shami and Umesh Yadav taking key wickets even on dry tracks to take the burden off. Thanks, in part, to their own batting skills, Ashwin and Jadeja have also had the advantage of, at times, playing with a third spinner, and the Yadavs Jayant and Kuldeep have both been competent allies, the latter even outperforming his senior team-mates on occasions.

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During Kumble and Harbhajan's time, the rest of India's bowlers averaged 41.40 at home. So it was often down to the two of them to win games. That goes a long way in explaining the much lower win percentage India had then. When you compare Ashwin and Jadeja to their bowling colleagues, and Kumble and Harbhajan to theirs, it's the older duo who actually come out looking marginally better, averaging one-and-a-half times less than their team-mates and striking at a much better rate too. Ashwin and Jadeja's support bowlers actually strike at a decent rate of 62.6 balls, which tells you a lot about India's overall bowling improvement.

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Clearly, there are several factors that have worked in Ashwin and Jadeja's favour. But it might be incorrect to say that they have thrived only in tailor-made conditions, as evident from the averages of other spinners on the same tracks. But so many intangibles - they make forming a solid argument one way or the other difficult. That said, with a win percentage of 75.75, it's hard to argue against the impact Ashwin and Jadeja have had.

 

Link - https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/27790643/how-does-ashwin-jadeja-stack-kumble-harbhajan

 

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I feel generally the quality of batsmanship has fallen. Batsman have been aggresive in scoring quick runs. Techniques have been compromised.

 

A key stats to look for in the eras is the ratio of draws to results.

 

Naturally if there are more results then bowling units are getting 20 wickets more regularly. This ratio needs to be controlled fpr by removing weaker teams. Look at aus india sa and england when playing each other. 

 

My hunch tells me ash n jaddu are better than kumble and bhajji with bat and ball

 

 

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Anyone who watched test matches esp from 2003-04 to around 2011-12 would know that not many pitches in India turned from day 1, which was the case In most Tests at home these days. We had an occasional bunsen burner like at Mumbai vs Aus in 2004 or vs SA at Kanpur in 2008 but largely the pitches were very good.
 

Almost every series had one, sometimes even two dead pitches which went to sleep on day 4 and 5. 2003 and 2010 NZ series, 2005 and 2007 Pak series, 2008 Aus series, 2008 test series at Chepauk - there were so many boring batting sloggathons. I watched a few of them at Delhi and Bangalore. No wonder the proportion of results in Tests was lower (was a general trend everywhere largely due to safety first approach of home teams). The 0-8 thrashing in Eng and Aus perhaps jolted the BCCI so strongly, they decided to use home advantage to the hilt. 

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46 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

Anyone who watched test matches esp from 2003-04 to around 2011-12 would know that not many pitches in India turned from day 1, which was the case In most Tests at home these days. We had an occasional bunsen burner like at Mumbai vs Aus in 2004 or vs SA at Kanpur in 2008 but largely the pitches were very good.
 

Almost every series had one, sometimes even two dead pitches which went to sleep on day 4 and 5. 2003 and 2010 NZ series, 2005 and 2007 Pak series, 2008 Aus series, 2008 test series at Chepauk - there were so many boring batting sloggathons. I watched a few of them at Delhi and Bangalore. No wonder the proportion of results in Tests was lower (was a general trend everywhere largely due to safety first approach of home teams). The 0-8 thrashing in Eng and Aus perhaps jolted the BCCI so strongly, they decided to use home advantage to the hilt. 

1202819_1400x1750.png&w=570&format=jpg

No Warne/Murali but Lyon, Herath, Maharaj not exactly mugs, plus bowling to far inferior batsmen.

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Ash/Jaddu comfortably better. Ash has 7 MOS, Kumble+Bhajji 8, 66 tests vs 235 (132+103) tests LINK. Jaddu was MOS against Aus in 2017, so there's that....no comparison at all. The current spin duo is the deadliest spin jodi in the history of test cricket on Asian pitches (+ similar conditions). In SENA both pairs not quite there, even if the Kumble/Bhajji duo has an edge it is paltry. Besides Bhajji was a blatant chucker during his productive years, he shouldn't even be in the picture. We all saw what he did sans doosra, nostalgia does wonderful things, people forgetting his second half career that easily? Leg side darts repeated ad nauseam.  

 

Fans taking current players for granted, when these 2 are out and inferior replacements come in we'll see just how difficult it is to go on a 24-1 home run, 33-2  (2015 Galle buffoonery and no DRS :facepalm:) run in Asia+WI.....mazaak nahi hai. 

Edited by Gollum

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I am of the opine that Ashwin and Jaddu would be a piece of cake for the likes of Jayasurya, Waugh brothers, Afridis and the likes. We are heavily undermining the spin playing capabilities of 90's batsmen.They would murder these 2 bowlers. 

Kumble was a fox. I would always, anyday, anytime put my money on Kumble than these spinners.

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Ashwin/Jadeja are clearly better. I think cream of test batting has gotten better than before, while medial probably has fallen. But since they are different eras we will never know who was better spinner, we need to see matches where they bowled together to get some pointers, that too can be a little iffy as Ash/Jadeja could be green horns and Kumble/Bhaji might have regressed by then. No clear way but Ash/Jadeja better on stats for sure.

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3 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

head to head bowling averages

vs - Each pairs bowling average

vs - Each pairs Bowling strike rate

vs - Each pairs other spinners average/strike rate deviation 

 

Ash/Jaddu look GOAT levels. If they do this for few more seasons they will elevate to that legend spinners of earlier era status. 

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On 10/7/2019 at 11:57 AM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

And, perhaps, opposition batsmen were better against spin then than they are now.

this is not a clear cut case, there are counter points to this. 

 

Kumble and Bhaji bowled a lot of their career  before the IPL revolution and unlimited access to India that current gen batsmen from around the globe enjoy. Some able spin batsmen were likes of Hayden, Clarke,Cook i can remember.. but there are few currently as well.

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9 hours ago, Khota said:

They are better as result of biased pitches. There is no rocket science here. Ashwin can be replaced by a better spinner tomorrow moring and no one will miss him except ICF.

what biased pitches....find me more 3 games in SA 2015 series , 1-2 here n there as if Kumble bhajji didnt

also its shown in article with numbers of how they havent got as many turners as ppl think

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I am of the opine that Ashwin and Jaddu would be a piece of cake for the likes of Jayasurya, Waugh brothers, Afridis and the likes. We are heavily undermining the spin playing capabilities of 90's batsmen.They would murder these 2 bowlers. 

Kumble was a fox. I would always, anyday, anytime put my money on Kumble than these spinners.

Ashwin troubled sanga big time...who was a damn good player of spin.....ashwin troubles lefties a lot so who knws 

jaddu has troubled clarke who made runs against these 2.....

jaddu has troubled abdv , cook.....

 

jaddu on indian wkts wud trouble anyone 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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40 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ashwin troubled sanga big time...who was a damn good player of spin.....ashwin troubles lefties a lot so who knws 

jaddu has troubled clarke who made runs against these 2.....

jaddu has troubled abdv , cook.....

 

jaddu on indian wkts wud trouble anyone 

Among overlapping batsmen

 

Ashwin: Sanga, Cook, Amla, Williamson (2010, 2012 Harbhajan)

Jadeja: Clarke, AB

Edited by Gollum

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50 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

what biased pitches....find me more 3 games in SA 2015 series , 1-2 here n there as if Kumble bhajji didnt

also its shown in article with numbers of how they havent got as many turners as ppl think

2 against SA 2015

1 against NZ 2016

1 against Aus 2017

 

According to some:

Karun Nair scored 300 on biased pitch, Kohli and Pujara averaged 70+ on biased pitches, double 100 by one of our batters in every series on biased pitches.

 

700+ score and multiple 600/500 scores on biased pitches.

 

By that logic every single Indian batsman of this decade is better than Don. 

Edited by Gollum

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10 hours ago, Khota said:

They are better as result of biased pitches. There is no rocket science here. Ashwin can be replaced by a better spinner tomorrow moring and no one will miss him except ICF.

Ashwin international avg in India- 22

 

Other spinners avg in domestic played in India

Nadeem - 28

Rahul chahar- 28

Kuldeep- 24 (his test avg in India )

K gowtham - 25 

Chahal - 33

jayant - 33

gopal - 26

 

Who are these better spinners??? the guys on radar - ashwin international avg is better then their Fc avg......

better spinners- yea right 

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2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

what biased pitches....find me more 3 games in SA 2015 series , 1-2 here n there as if Kumble bhajji didnt

also its shown in article with numbers of how they havent got as many turners as ppl think

Show me their numbers in Australia.

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ashwin international avg in India- 22

 

Other spinners avg in domestic played in India

Nadeem - 28

Rahul chahar- 28

Kuldeep- 24 (his test avg in India )

K gowtham - 25 

Chahal - 33

jayant - 33

gopal - 26

 

Who are these better spinners??? the guys on radar - ashwin international avg is better then their Fc avg......

better spinners- yea right 

Once again you are clueless. Cricket averages the way you present are meaningless.

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9 hours ago, Gollum said:

2 against SA 2015

1 against NZ 2016

1 against Aus 2017

 

According to some:

Karun Nair scored 300 on biased pitch, Kohli and Pujara averaged 70+ on biased pitches, double 100 by one of our batters in every series on biased pitches.

 

700+ score and multiple 600/500 scores on biased pitches.

 

By that logic every single Indian batsman of this decade is better than Don. 

even kohli has few 200 in that phase 

Rahane made runs in that NZ series who is said to struggle against spin

Rohit made runs in that NZ series to

 

so called bowler frendly pitches

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Kumble was a master - bounce pace spin and googly later on with flipper always 

bowled large part of his initial career with raju and chauhan against - lanka ( jayasurya came later but had de Silva and ranatunga and gurusingha - crazy good spin players )

 

pak had Anwar sohail and Ijaz 

 

aussie were world beaters - Hayden etc and Waugh bro’s before that 

 

even Zimbabwe had flower! 
 

pethaps england was a Minnow . West Indies has lara chanderpaul etc 

 

support cast for kumble was srinath and then Dodda Ganesh , raju amd chauhan ! 
 

 

once Bhajji came in , kumble actually became more threatening - together they form the best spinning pair . Bhajji was special - not seen such drift and bounce in many off spinners at their peak - india actually competed in Aussie when these two with agarkar ishant and zaheer formed a good bowling attack 

 

pitches were mainly batting paradises those days - still remember the 900 scored by Sri Lanka ! 
 

ashwin is at best a decent spinner and at worst a half fit guy - he is not half as fit as kumble and Bhajji . 
jaddu though is a underrated spinner - seems to do his job always. 
 

as a combo - give me Bhajji kumble anyday over ash jaddu when bumrah sharma -2 and shami around ! 
 

ash jaddu score over Bhajji kumble only in one department - as a combo they give u tremendous batting depth in india . We won the series against England cos of batting depth 

 

if u want to see how good a bowler kumble was , look no further than his performances in aussie and even in South Africa - he was and shall remain indias best spin bowler last 40 years ( didn’t see bedi and others so won’t comment - shastri etc don’t count !) 

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3 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

In Aus 

Ashwin avg 48......7 test 22 wkts 

Bhajji - 73.22, 4 games 9 wkts

 

guess what ashwin is even better then bhajji here as well.........srsly dnt ask for stats n dig ur grave 

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Edited by mani sha

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13 minutes ago, mani sha said:

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Ashwin played 6 tests in 2011-12 series and 2014-15, some of the flattest pitches in test history against peak Clarke, Hussey, Ponting, peak Smith, peak Warner. And Smith is 10 times the player Haydos ever was, wonder what he would do to Chuckbhajan?

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Kumble benefited because of 90s Indian pitches, unlike what some experts here say those designer pitches were tougher than 2010s Indian pitches. He averaged in early 20s in those pitches and 50+ overseas (maybe more). Did very little overseas for the first 10-12  years of his career. Lucky cos no competitor breathing down his neck. 

 

Harbhajan was a chucker during best part of his career. As Bedi said, a javelin thrower. 

 

Dispute any of the 2 above points if you can. 

Edited by Gollum

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25 minutes ago, mani sha said:

Yes - try bowling against 

Hayden gillly langer pointing Symmonds 

i bet ur avges will reverse . Ash is lucky he hasn’t run into haydos ! Hayden would have swept ash into oblivion 

Those aussie pitches still had something to in last few years when they have become absolute pancakes since they started using drop in pitches 

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2 hours ago, SRT100 said:

Kumble and Bhajji bowled against far superior batsmen and batting lineups.

 

Today's overseas batsmen has one or two who can face spin and rest just choke.

This is a perception. Not all great players of spin co-occured in the past as well they were interspread over a large period. Often visiting teams would choke against spin with 1 or 2 players able to counter it and turners were looked down on by overseas press..eventually as more western players learnt to play spin and some started excelling it was acknowledged as raging turner ultimate examination and acheivement etc like today, similar to grudging reverence spitting green pitches get. They just make test cricket dramatic and heroic.

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On 10/10/2019 at 12:57 AM, Gollum said:

1202819_1400x1750.png&w=570&format=jpg

No Warne/Murali but Lyon, Herath, Maharaj not exactly mugs, plus bowling to far inferior batsmen.

As I said, those numbers do not take into account some of the sleeping beauties at Kotla, Mohali, Chinnaswamy, Hyderabad or Chepauk in the mid-2000s. Go 1-0 in the series and produce 2 dead tracks or 2 dead tracks followed by a turner, that seemed like the norm.
 

Thank god we haven’t had any such Test pitches for almost 5-6 years now.

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3 hours ago, mani sha said:

Kumble was a master - bounce pace spin and googly later on with flipper always 

bowled large part of his initial career with raju and chauhan against - lanka ( jayasurya came later but had de Silva and ranatunga and gurusingha - crazy good spin players )

 

pak had Anwar sohail and Ijaz 

 

aussie were world beaters - Hayden etc and Waugh bro’s before that 

 

even Zimbabwe had flower! 
 

pethaps england was a Minnow . West Indies has lara chanderpaul etc 

 

support cast for kumble was srinath and then Dodda Ganesh , raju amd chauhan ! 
 

 

once Bhajji came in , kumble actually became more threatening - together they form the best spinning pair . Bhajji was special - not seen such drift and bounce in many off spinners at their peak - india actually competed in Aussie when these two with agarkar ishant and zaheer formed a good bowling attack 

 

pitches were mainly batting paradises those days - still remember the 900 scored by Sri Lanka ! 
 

ashwin is at best a decent spinner and at worst a half fit guy - he is not half as fit as kumble and Bhajji . 
jaddu though is a underrated spinner - seems to do his job always. 
 

as a combo - give me Bhajji kumble anyday over ash jaddu when bumrah sharma -2 and shami around ! 
 

ash jaddu score over Bhajji kumble only in one department - as a combo they give u tremendous batting depth in india . We won the series against England cos of batting depth 

 

if u want to see how good a bowler kumble was , look no further than his performances in aussie and even in South Africa - he was and shall remain indias best spin bowler last 40 years ( didn’t see bedi and others so won’t comment - shastri etc don’t count !) 

yea right as if sanga wasnt a gr8 batsman.....ashwin made him his bunny

 

jadeja made clarke his bunny n clarke scored runs against bhajji n kumble in 2004 

 

Acc to u williamson, smith, root, abdv, sanga, cook arent good batsman 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

As I said, those numbers do not take into account some of the sleeping beauties at Kotla, Mohali, Chinnaswamy, Hyderabad or Chepauk in the mid-2000s. Go 1-0 in the series and produce 2 dead tracks or 2 dead tracks followed by a turner, that seemed like the norm.
 

Thank god we haven’t had any such Test pitches for almost 5-6 years now.

More than sleeping beauties it was lack of ambition on our part, also lack of ability, defensive captaincy. 

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England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

 

To be continued...

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41 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

You forget the impact of DRS, Harbhajan had Cook trapped lbw before the end of play (2nd day) in Mumbai 2012. Kumble had Clarke lbw on 92 (or 94) at Bangalore, again no reviews, while Pathan trapped Langer in the first over of the series itself, same venue!

 

It's easy to forget how DRS has had a profound impact on wickets this decade! I'm flabbergasted how the past spinners are looked down upon just by peeking at stats, conveniently forgetting umpires wouldn't give a lot of plumb calls back in the day! Even neutral umpires, like Billy "clown" Bowden or especially Bucknor were shite :whack3:

Edited by R!TTER

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10 hours ago, R!TTER said:

You forget the impact of DRS, Harbhajan had Cook trapped lbw before the end of play (2nd day) in Mumbai 2012. Kumble had Clarke lbw on 92 (or 94) at Bangalore, again no reviews, while Pathan trapped Langer in the first over of the series itself, same venue!

 

It's easy to forget how DRS has had a profound impact on wickets this decade! I'm flabbergasted how the past spinners are looked down upon just by peeking at stats, conveniently forgetting umpires wouldn't give a lot of plumb calls back in the day! Even neutral umpires, like Billy "clown" Bowden or especially Bucknor were shite :whack3:

We started using DRS since late 2016, come again. We often benefited during neutral umpires era, before that we had some very biased Indian umpires in home tests. Or do you think umpires never gave howlers in favor of India? Umpiring in 2001 Aus series was largely in our favor.

 

Cricket now is better, esp with DRS and anti-chucking measures, better tech for 3rd ump, more cameras to catch tamperers etc. 

Edited by Gollum

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8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

Rosy retrospection. Kumble and Harbhajan had many forgettable moments as well. 

 

2012 Eng tracks (Wankhede, Eden) were like normal 90s tracks. Did you compare them to Mumbai, 2004? Is this for real? Had you compared Mumbai (Clarke 6/9 :hysterical:) with Nagpur/Mohali 2015 you would have had a point, but still that Mumbai track was much worse, did it last 2 days? Biggest joke in the history of pitch doctoring, and you are comparing it with tracks which saw 500/400 scores and 4-5 100s, hell Ashwin the then #8 got an unbeaten 90 on day 4 of 2012 Mumbai. 2016 Mumbai test (Kohli 235) had more surface deviation than 2012 as shown on live air graphics...day 2 and 3 are best time to bat there, batsmen let us down in 2012. 

 

Harbhajan and Kumble *ed it up in enough matches, Harbhajan for most of the 2000s in spinning conditions in India despite doosra. I am not even going to discuss his failures because it will run into pages. 

 

Regarding Kumble, legend especially at home. But on turners he had his share of * ups. 

- Mohali 2005 Pak...Razzag/Akmal rearguard after we reduced them to 200/6 by day 4 tea, same series Chinnaswamy test where he was smashed to oblivion, outbowled by Afridi, Kaneria, Arshad Khan

- Bangalore 1998 Aus...they chased 200 in their 4th innings on a crumbling wicket, for the loss of 1 wicket !!! One of the earliest matches I saw, Kumble did zilch despite bowling from one end throughout, on a track where Robertson (apart from Kasprowicz with his cutters) wrecked us in the previous innings.

- 2000 Mumbai, crumbling pitch where we allowed SA to chase 170 in 4th innings, young Kallis scored a very slow match winning knock

- 1999 Chepauk and Eden tests against Pak where Saqlain (mediocre test bowler) outbowled him...Afridi tore him apart in Chennai

There are more, if you include SL-> pitches that offered turn (not that 90s series)...even more. 

 

On flatter pitches (like Eng 2016) in India, Kumble too struggled. Example that disgraceful drawn series by NZ in India in 2003. There is a reason why we couldn't inflict whitewashes at home those days.  Not downplaying Kumble here, but let us not forget the failures of our ex-players just because of nostalgia factor. Failure to adapt is something many ATGs have gone through in their careers. 

Quote

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

2004 Chennai track was just like 2012 Eng series tracks, maybe worse. How is this decent batting track and those 2 rank turners? 

Equivalent of 2016 Eng would be NZ 2003...against weaker batting line up than Eng. 

Edited by Gollum

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On 10/11/2019 at 7:28 AM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yea right as if sanga wasnt a gr8 batsman.....ashwin made him his bunny

 

jadeja made clarke his bunny n clarke scored runs against bhajji n kumble in 2004 

 

Acc to u williamson, smith, root, abdv, sanga, cook arent good batsman 

 

 

Quality of batting is not the same as in the 90s . 
each team had 3-4 good players of spin . Going into 2000 teams were stronger . 
Post 2010 - look at india pakistan lanka and Australia - I don’t see anyone who is as good as 

that bench against spin -don’t see a de Silva or an Anwar or the mighty aussie lineup 

 

abdv - don’t rate him as high against spin 

root ,Williamson , cook are not the same class against spin . 
 

this decade has been more about pace - 90s and 2000s trundlers abound or wayward pace like shoaib . 
 

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5 hours ago, mani sha said:

Quality of batting is not the same as in the 90s . 

grass always looks greener on other side 

Future n past both look gr8

Quote

 

abdv - don’t rate him as high against spin 

he scored at an avg of 76 in 2007-08 series against india which had kumble bhajji 

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 cook are not the same class against spin . 

Cook 

51 in india

55 in uae

61 in bang

48 in bang

 

Root

india- 51

uae- 57

 

Kuch bhi matalab

 

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this decade has been more about pace - 90s and 2000s trundlers abound or wayward pace like shoaib . 
 

wayward pace ??? with that pace no one can be mcgrath. Its diff to control that kind of pace 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03

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Wickets in this series so far-

 

 

Ashwin - 14

Jadeja - 10

Shami - 8

Umesh - 6

Ishant - 2

 

I don't know why some consider Ashwin a average bowler .. I am perfectly  fine with him playing for India and taking wickets at the rate he does.. 

 

Ignoring all technicals .. just like with Smith for batting.. Ashwin gets the results and stats will speak for him, when he retires..

 

Him and Jadeja are doing superbly and I hope they continue to perform like this irrespective  of public opinion or celebrity status.

Edited by Cricspin

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Having seen the entire career of all 4 i can confidently say Ashwin is way way ahead of everyone else at home. Including Kumble. I still remember how he struggled to get Kamran Akmal and Razzaq out in the mohali test. They achieved an improbable draw. Same way in the same series on day 4 at Bangaluru  they beat the crap out of Kumble and Bhajji and posted 261 in 50 overs.  Kumble is effective when there is uneven bounce. Otherwise rule for most batsmen was, just treat him as a seam bowler. Also Kumble had the huge benefit of very poor pitch in the 90s. They were called designer pitches. Azhar/Wadekar went to the extreme.

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On 10/11/2019 at 10:39 PM, Trichromatic said:

England tour of India 2012

Rank turners and Ashwin averaged 50 in that series. He just tried too many things and didn't succeed. He was also slow through the air. Panesar who was quicker reaped rewards. Jadeja would have been handy in first 3 tests at Ahmedabad, Kolkata and Mumbai, although Ahmedabad was slow.

 

Kumble and Bhajji wouldn't have come up with such performance on those tracks. England had their best batting line up against spin, but they were still vulnerable. Bhajji especially was used to taking 5-fers once pitches start assisting. 2004 Mumbai test v Aus - only strategy adopted by Kumble, Bhajji and Kartik was to bowl quick. They assessed pitch quickly and adjusted early to win the match. Ashwin failed to adapt in 2012 series.

 

England tour of India 2016

Flat pitches but weak batting line up. 3rd test - Ashwin took 7-fer and 4th test Jadeja. Those 7-fers were after India had piled up 600-700 runs after England had scored 400+ in first inning. I doubt that Bhajji could produce those spells of running through line up on those tracks. Can't say anything about Kumble. 2004 Chennai test v Aus and it was decent batting track against an ATG line up and yet he ran through them.

 

To be continued...

You need fast bowlers to pitch in, 2012 Cook and KP played Ashwin and Ohja well.But Zak and co were totally ineffective in creating any chances. Zak while skilled went missing in many matches like Ishant has done in this series.Dhoni's captaincy was clueless too.

 

Even today Umesh was needed to break that Vernon- Maharaj partnership. They both were looking extremely comfortable again against spinners.

 

Anderson played a very vital role for England.

Edited by putrevus

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