Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[maniac]

Let me explain. This isn't about what Kapil Dev became at the end of his career but what he was when he started his journey.

 

Today we have this obsession to pick ready made all rounders and pick junk in the process like Dube or a half-baked Hardik Pandya but Kapil Dev didn't start off as a total allrounder. He was batting at 8-9 in his first few games. That too because India had a long tail. So that rules out Kapil getting a free ride in as the all rounder quota.

 

Similarly Kapil was brisk at the start of his career but he was never express or 140+. He might have been in the 135-140K range at his peak. I don't blame the fans especially the hardcore type that we get on ICF who shout trundler the moment they see a 130-135ish type bowler because we have been burnt too many times by such bowlers. However I see that focus has become more on the speed-guns than skill. I know a couple of trundlers like Shardul and Chahar have been picked but usually bowling 145k+ kind of becomes a shortcut to get into the side.

 

Anyway back to the topic would Kapil Dev the bowler minus the batting walk into this line up of Bumrah,Bhuvi,Shami,Umesh and Ishant?

 

[zen]

It would depend upon the format. Unlike in the past, cricketers now have the ability to showcase their potential so if Kapil were playing widely followed domestic tourneys like IPL, his potential as an AR would have been identified and therefore made his way into the team to be groomed into one 

 

 

 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

It would depend upon the format. Unlike in the past, cricketers now have the ability to showcase their potential so if Kapil were playing widely followed domestic tourneys like IPL, his potential as an AR would have been identified and therefore made his way into the team to be groomed into one 

 

 

 

Bhuvi has done well with the bat in domestics too and did well in some of  the international games against good attacks as well. Obviously has very good skills with the ball. However Kapil Dev did well in Aus on the other hand Bhuvi type bowlers have usually struggled but the point is would that have been identified? Back in the day we had no option and knowing what Kapil is now, we would put him as the first name in the X1. However if he was a player on the fringes, would he play before Shami or Umesh or even Ishant?

[Ankit_sharma03]

In LOI - 

i havent seen him bowl apart from youtube videos so...

how good was he at death ??? if he cud pick wkts with new ball n was good at death why not.....

his fielding , batting wud obv been a bonus but since its just about bowling our ODI bowling isnt as settled as we think. Only bumrah is fixed, bhuvi doesnt pick wkts, shami picks wkts but kohli doesnt pick him. 

 

In test 

In India - only as bowler nope 

Away- i dnt knw .....its competitive 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[putrevus]

Kapil would walk into this team as a bowler as he is better than all other bowlers barring Bumrah.Reverse swing is something Kapil never had in his arsenal.He had one of the great outswingers and he would have mastered reverse swing if he had played today.

 

Bumrah it is debable as his body of work is too small.But he has a ability to become first sub 25 fast bowler from India with over 200 wickets.

Edited October 30, 2019 by putrevus

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

Kapil would walk into this team as a bowler as he is better than all other bowlers barring Bumrah.Reverse swing is something Kapil never had in his arsenal.He had one of the great outswingers and he would have master reverse swing if he had played today.

but for reverse u need pace as well....umesh shami has that pace

how were kapil dev's speeds ?

 

[zen]

13 minutes ago, maniac said:

Bhuvi has done well with the bat in domestics too and did well in some of  the international games against good attacks as well. Obviously has very good skills with the ball. However Kapil Dev did well in Aus on the other hand Bhuvi type bowlers have usually struggled but the point is would that have been identified? Back in the day we had no option and knowing what Kapil is now, we would put him as the first name in the X1. However if he was a player on the fringes, would he play before Shami or Umesh or even Ishant?

Having watched Kapil bat, I can see he was among the most talented ones that I have seen. If he played to his potential, should have averaged 40+ in tests and 30+ in ODIs, that is 10 more than his current average. Avg of 30-40 was acceptable in his time as guys like Srikant averaged around 30

[putrevus]

22 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

but for reverse u need pace as well....umesh shami has that pace

how were kapil dev's speeds ?

 

He had plenty of pace and he was not a trundler which Op is making him out to be.

[maniac]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

He had plenty of pace and he was not a trundler which Op is making him out to be.

No I am not. I have defended Kapil plenty of times on this forum and rate him even above Sachin as India's greatest.

 

However the point is Kapil at his prime was a 135k-140k bowler not a 140+. key word being in his prime. A trunder is someone who doesn't have skill. Kapil had plenty of skills. However players having pace have an easier ride to get in these days than the ones with skill.

 

Do you think Umesh is more skilful than Bhuvi? debatable, both have merits. However Umesh is preferred because of pace. Sure,Bhuvi has his place in the set up but skills alone don't get you a guaranteed slot these days.

 

[sandeep]

22 minutes ago, maniac said:

Umesh is preferred because

No he isn't.  If Bhuvi is fit, and the ball can swing, Bhuvi is a no-brainer pick ahead of Umesh.  Tour squads to SA, Eng are testament to that fact.  

[ShoonyaSifar]

Every single day, everywhere, even as a 35 yr old. Look at what he did vs WI and Aus away from home, consider quality of those sides and the support he had to put his numbers in context. Not to forget the safety first approach of most teams back then, producing absolute pattas after taking an early lead in the series. 

 

Not one of our current pace bowlers will last 100 tests (or even 80 tests) or go onto take 350 test wickets

[MCcricket]

Bumrah, Shami are the two best bowlers to have played for India , in terms of class, pace, skilss , effectiveness. Kapil had to shoulder the burden by himself but he would be my 3 rd or 4 th option

[putrevus]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

No I am not. I have defended Kapil plenty of times on this forum and rate him even above Sachin as India's greatest.

 

However the point is Kapil at his prime was a 135k-140k bowler not a 140+. key word being in his prime. A trunder is someone who doesn't have skill. Kapil had plenty of skills. However players having pace have an easier ride to get in these days than the ones with skill.

 

Do you think Umesh is more skilful than Bhuvi? debatable, both have merits. However Umesh is preferred because of pace. Sure,Bhuvi has his place in the set up but skills alone don't get you a guaranteed slot these days.

 

Kapil would be easily 140K bowler in his prime. You don't need to defend Kapil Dev he is that great.Anyone who thinks Kapil Dev was not great has no idea about cricket.

 

Don't Lump Kapil with Bhuvi, Kapil was an athlete who with modern training would easily maintain his speed.Was he Jeff Thomspon or Holding no but   he sure was bowling at Shami's speeds.

 

When you are lone ranger like Kapil , you tend to conserve your energy and bowl within yourself, he never had luxury of going all out.Kapil would finish his spell of bowling only to be recalled by captain to bowl again to get control of the innings.He never had support of good spinners even at home. 

 

People underestimate the speeds and greatness of both Kapil and Ian Botham as bowlers.Both were instant hits and became the main match winners for their teams.Kapil never missed a test due to injury.

 

 

[Khota]

This is a very good question from the op. Kapil is my favorite player but I am pragmatic. He is not the top 6 bat or the top 3 bowler. Short answer: No.

[maniac]

31 minutes ago, sandeep said:

No he isn't.  If Bhuvi is fit, and the ball can swing, Bhuvi is a no-brainer pick ahead of Umesh.  Tour squads to SA, Eng are testament to that fact.  

I don't think Bhuvi will be chosen over Umesh in Indian and Aus conditions 9/10 times may be in Eng or Nzl. Also benching Shami for Bhuvi was a blunder.

20 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Kapil would be easily 140K bowler in his prime. You don't need to defend Kapil Dev he is that great.Anyone who thinks Kapil Dev was not great has no idea about cricket.

 

Don't Lump Kapil with Bhuvi, Kapil was an athlete who with modern training would easily maintain his speed.Was he Jeff Thomspon or Holding no but   he sure was bowling at Shami's speeds.

 

When you are lone ranger like Kapil , you tend to conserve your energy and bowl within yourself, he never had luxury of going all out.Kapil would finish his spell of bowling only to be recalled by captain to bowl again to get control of the innings.He never had support of good spinners even at home. 

 

People underestimate the speeds and greatness of both Kapil and Ian Botham as bowlers.Both were instant hits and became the main match winners for their teams.Kapil never missed a test due to injury.

 

 

Anyways back to the topic I am talking about Kapil Dev the bowler, not the athlete, not the batsman, not the total package.  Yes, it is incredible what he did with no support, no doubt about that. My question is if the options were Bumrah,Shami,Ishant,Bhuvi,Umesh and Kapil was a batsman of Chris Martin's caliber, how many names would he be picked over. that was the premise of the question.

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

I don't think Bhuvi will be chosen over Umesh in Indian and Aus conditions 9/10 times may be in Eng or Nzl. Also benching Shami for Bhuvi was a blunder.

yup bhuvi cant play over umesh in Indian condition in test cricket, not even ishant

But in aus both wud be 50-50 as offlately umesh bouncer isnt same as effective neither does he do well when he has kookabura in hand

 

 

[putrevus]

25 minutes ago, maniac said:

I don't think Bhuvi will be chosen over Umesh in Indian and Aus conditions 9/10 times may be in Eng or Nzl. Also benching Shami for Bhuvi was a blunder.

Anyways back to the topic I am talking about Kapil Dev the bowler, not the athlete, not the batsman, not the total package.  Yes, it is incredible what he did with no support, no doubt about that. My question is if the options were Bumrah,Shami,Ishant,Bhuvi,Umesh and Kapil was a batsman of Chris Martin's caliber, how many names would he be picked over. that was the premise of the question.

He would still pick the first pick of the team.Ask this question when Shami ,Bumrah and Co reach 250 plus wickets under 27 avg.These guys have never played in Pakistan on those dead wickets with those fricking umpires who never gave LBWs.Kapil with DRS would be deadly .

[Rightarmfast]

Looking at his average and strike rate from his initial matches, we can safely say he wasnt the brightest of the bowlers around. He was a hustler. Much like Ishant or Venky. His poison was also his blessing. Not having a decent bowler on the other end, also ensured that he got to play all the matches, as well as keep getting chances of getting more wickets. 

If we truly be honest to ourselves, we would accept that his wicket tally is more to do with the no of matches that he played. To do that, he also made sure that upcoming bowlers like Srinath were kept far away from the team, aka Dhoni.

 

My answer is, NO! Kapil wouldnt make it to this team just as a bowler. 

About the pace, lets not get too ahead of ourselves. I would be surprised if he ever bowled in excess of 142 in his career. 

[MechEng]

@Rightarmfast if a batsman scores a test 100 against Bumrah - Shami - Ishant - Umesh quartet, will it be considered a top knock like how we would rate knocks against great bowling line ups of South Africa, West Indies and etc.?

Edited October 30, 2019 by MechEng

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

Let me explain. This isn't about what Kapil Dev became at the end of his career but what he was when he started his journey.

 

Today we have this obsession to pick ready made all rounders and pick junk in the process like Dube or a half-baked Hardik Pandya but Kapil Dev didn't start off as a total allrounder. He was batting at 8-9 in his first few games. That too because India had a long tail. So that rules out Kapil getting a free ride in as the all rounder quota.

 

Similarly Kapil was brisk at the start of his career but he was never express or 140+. He might have been in the 135-140K range at his peak. I don't blame the fans especially the hardcore type that we get on ICF who shout trundler the moment they see a 130-135ish type bowler because we have been burnt too many times by such bowlers. However I see that focus has become more on the speed-guns than skill. I know a couple of trundlers like Shardul and Chahar have been picked but usually bowling 145k+ kind of becomes a shortcut to get into the side.

 

Anyway back to the topic would Kapil Dev the bowler minus the batting walk into this line up of Bumrah,Bhuvi,Shami,Umesh and Ishant?

 

It's not just speeds. Bumrah Shami Umesh and Ishant are mostly in 135-140 range with ocassionaly going in mid 140s, but there is a zest or energy in their bowling which was never seen from Indian fast bowlers before, you can't measure that with a device. I mentioned before that this Indian bowling line up reminds me a lot of that Ashes 2005 English attack.

Edited October 30, 2019 by MechEng