Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[Deleted_User_1]

57 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Did Kapil Dev ever bowl a heavy ball or hit the bat hard? I generally don't give speed guns that much importance, I've watched Ponting getting hurried by an 85 mph ball from Flintoff and also watched Ross Taylor defending 100 mph ball from Starc with ease.

It is hard to guess the speed by naked eye, but I think it is fair to say that Kapil Dev probably bowled around 135 ish when he started international cricket to about the mid-late 80s and then his speed dropped. In the early 90s I do not think he did not crossed 130, maybe even 125. If you see his delivery action he did not use the ground as leverage to gain speed. Kinda like a more refined version Madan Lal's who basically ran in and jumped in the air and rotated his arm to bowl - basically no use of the ground to main momentum. If he grew up in today's environment, I think that is one area where he could have been corrected early in his development. Back in the 70s ans 80s we did not know anything about pace bowling especially when the spin quatret operated. Just bowl a few dibbly-dobblies with part timers and hand the ball to Bedi / Chandra / Prasanna / Venkat.

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

Bumrah rarely bowled in 140s when he was sending stumps flying in West Indies, the only time I saw him bowling consistently in 140s was in Australia.

 

Bumrah was injured during the WI tour and bowling at a much reduced pace than usual.

 

He complained of a stiff back after the first test ... which was later diagnosed as stress fracture of the back, due to which he is out of the game now.

 

According to Cricviz, Bumrah was the 3rd quickest bowler in the world in test matches in 2018 and averaged 139 kph and was quicker than both Rabada and Cummins. For reference, the express pacer Starc, who was first, averaged 141.6 kph.  

 

To average 139 kph in tests, a pacer has to bowl a lot of 140 kph to 150 kph balls as some much slower than average speed deliveries are invariable in later spells.

 

And Bumrah bowled 75 deliveries above 150 kph in tests in 2018 according to that Cricviz report.

 

 

Quote

Along with brisky pace Bumrah's chief weapon is banana swing like Waqar Younis, he does not need to bowl like Shoaib Akhtar.

 

Banana swing from Bumrah was seen only in the WI while playing with the Dukes ball. He wasn't even considered as a normal swing bowler before this series and widely accepted as more of a seam bowler than a swing bowler. This ability to get consistent swing us something he has developed only recently.

Edited November 1, 2019 by express bowling

[maniac]

17 minutes ago, Audiophile said:

It is hard to guess the speed by naked eye, but I think it is fair to say that Kapil Dev probably bowled around 135 ish when he started international cricket to about the mid-late 80s and then his speed dropped. In the early 90s I do not think he did not crossed 130, maybe even 125. If you see his delivery action he did not use the ground as leverage to gain speed. Kinda like a more refined version Madan Lal's who basically ran in and jumped in the air and rotated his arm to bowl - basically no use of the ground to main momentum. If he grew up in today's environment, I think that is one area where he could have been corrected early in his development. Back in the 70s ans 80s we did not know anything about pace bowling especially when the spin quatret operated. Just bowl a few dibbly-dobblies with part timers and hand the ball to Bedi / Chandra / Prasanna / Venkat.

 

 

It's only a fun debate on a cricket forum but it is very difficult to compare eras. While the ability to play swing and seam and even quality spin has gone down all over the world at the same time on flat wickets it not only rains but pours.

 

Even the Aussies and English suck in swinging conditions now and one would expect them to be masters at playing such bowling. In fact SA and WI got blown away by quality fast bowling in recent series which no one could imagine 5 years ago with SA or 25-30 years ago with WI during Kapil's era. I would imagine under such circumstances Kapil would run through some line ups on helpful pitches.

 

By the same account with the new rules,big bats,small boundaries and some monster hitters like Russell,Maxwell,Butler etc etc I am sure one of these T20 hacks could get hold of 125-135K bowler on a flat pitch with no swing etc and tonk it around for fun. In fact Kapil himself could destroy some bowling careers in this era with the bat.

 

That is why It is kind of difficult to gauge Kapil's success in this era as a pure bowler alone.

 

As some posters have said this is only assuming what Kapil was from 1979-1985 or even beyond not taking into account all the technology and coaching methods,training and knowledge we have acquired when it comes to fast bowling.

Edited November 1, 2019 by maniac

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, MechEng said:

Did Kapil Dev ever bowl a heavy ball or hit the bat hard? I generally don't give speed guns that much importance, I've watched Ponting getting hurried by an 85 mph ball from Flintoff and also watched Ross Taylor defending 100 mph ball from Starc with ease.

No. He was not a heavy ball bowler. Genuine outswing bowler. So he often pitched on a good or full length. Generally his landing is like Malinga yorkers. He can bowl all day and hit the same spot again and again.  His action was not based on shoulder effort.

[vvvslaxman]

43 minutes ago, maniac said:

It's only a fun debate on a cricket forum but it is very difficult to compare eras. While the ability to play swing and seam and even quality spin has gone down all over the world at the same time on flat wickets it not only rains but pours.

 

Even the Aussies and English suck in swinging conditions now and one would expect them to be masters at playing such bowling. In fact SA and WI got blown away by quality fast bowling in recent series which no one could imagine 5 years ago with SA or 25-30 years ago with WI during Kapil's era. I would imagine under such circumstances Kapil would run through some line ups on helpful pitches.

 

By the same account with the new rules,big bats,small boundaries and some monster hitters like Russell,Maxwell,Butler etc etc I am sure one of these T20 hacks could get hold of 125-135K bowler on a flat pitch with no swing etc and tonk it around for fun. In fact Kapil himself could destroy some bowling careers in this era with the bat.

 

That is why It is kind of difficult to gauge Kapil's success in this era as a pure bowler alone.

 

As some posters have said this is only assuming what Kapil was from 1979-1985 or even beyond not taking into account all the technology and coaching methods,training and knowledge we have acquired when it comes to fast bowling.

 Your goal is to get the batsman into indecision. When it comes to that, Kapil dev is second to none. This is his first over in Test cricket. Almost got a wicket. Modern day keepers would have held on to that.  You see this indecisive footwork of batsman right? That is something you could see until he got his 400th wicket. You could neither go forward, nor backward with any degree of certainty. That controlled outswing to righties and inswing to lefties was a rare thing. Sreesanth could bowl outswing, But not with exact control for longer period. Prasad bowled leg cutters rather than outswing. There was a brief period Balaji was controlling his outswing beautifully.  But very briefly. That wobbly effect that kapil had always introduced doubts.  An accurate and thinking bowler. He would have been a strike force in any era simply for his accurate bowling. India brought in players like T.A.Sekhar,  Bharat Arun later Kumaran because they could bowl a tad faster lol We all know what happened. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Sreesanth should have been our next kapil dev (in terms of bowling) for his ability to bowl outswingers. He totally ruined his career. 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by vvvslaxman

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Kapil, after his knee operation, cut down on his pace. And he focused on prolonging his career at the cost of reducing quality while trying to eliminate any completion as our top seamer while he was the captain.  I don't think any of this would be possible in this era either. 

Kapil was the captain from 1983-1987 in two stints. He was our best bowler during that period, bowled at a decent pace and as captain had 111 wkts@26 in 34 tests. Which promising bowler did he block? 

[ShoonyaSifar]

4 hours ago, Audiophile said:

You obviously did not understand what I was trying to say. Kapil Dev was a extremely fit athlete. The reason he did not bowl 140+ because there was no MRF pace academy or culture of bowling fast. Given how shambolic our fast bowling was, he was a diamond in the rough. If we grew up now, his talent combined with better grooming would have made him bowl much faster. 

 

Have you seen Kapil Dev at his peak? I have ... on multiple occasions and live. Even with his limited pace, he had enough skills to get wickets on Indian patches. Indian wickets in the late 70s and 80s were pattas for pace bowling and the outfield was so rough that the ball lost its shine almost immediately. That is how the reverse swing came into play for the Pak bowlers (along with generous help from bottle caps). But it was not an art known worldwide back then. In fact, the rough nature of the outfield was the reason players did not dive or slide because it would rip the skin of their bones. One of main reasons, Indians were poor outfielders back then. In fact, the first I remember an Indian player sliding in the outlfield was Bewda during the Aus tour in 1985-86.

My post was a failed attempt at sarcasm 

[MechEng]

5 hours ago, MK55 said:

Bumrah had acknowledged that he was down in pace in his post match interview. He had specifically mentioned that his back was stiff. Was the early sign of stress fracture.

Still he let go and bowled at full pace in one of the innings where he absolutely destroyed WI. In that spell he must have averaged close to 90 miles.

So obviously his speeds were down in WI.

But that also shows he does not need to rely only on raw pace, he can bowl at 85 mph and swing it like a boomerang if we used top quality SG balls, basically a freakier version of Dale Steyn.

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Sreesanth should have been our next kapil dev (in terms of bowling) for his ability to bowl outswingers. He totally ruined his career. 

 

 

The best ball from Sreesanth ever:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHPtekJgo40

 

The most 'English' delivery you could bowl in English conditions. Only thing more English would be Enid Blyton books.

 

[mani sha]

I saw him bowl towards end . Fabulous bowler . Will walk into indian team in any foreign pitch and on indian pitches he will not be picked ahead of shami and yadav and bumrah - he was the ultimate swing bowler and not A skid dy bowler nor was he express fast . He was praveen kumar with 10 k more and built like a bull . 

[MechEng]

5 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah was injured during the WI tour and bowling at a much reduced pace than usual.

 

He complained of a stiff back after the first test ... which was later diagnosed as stress fracture of the back, due to which he is out of the game now.

 

According to Cricviz, Bumrah was the 3rd quickest bowler in the world in test matches in 2018 and averaged 139 kph and was quicker than both Rabada and Cummins. For reference, the express pacer Starc, who was first, averaged 141.6 kph.  

 

To average 139 kph in tests, a pacer has to bowl a lot of 140 kph to 150 kph balls as some much slower than average speed deliveries are invariable in later spells.

 

And Bumrah bowled 75 deliveries above 150 kph in tests in 2018 according to that Cricviz report.

 

 

 

Banana swing from Bumrah was seen only in the WI while playing with the Dukes ball. He wasn't even considered as a normal swing bowler before this series and widely accepted as more of a seam bowler than a swing bowler. This ability to get consistent swing us something he has developed only recently.

Bumrah is too precious a gem for us to get repeatedly injured, he is the Sachin Tendulkar of fast bowling to me. Hope he plays 100 tests.

[MK55]

28 minutes ago, MechEng said:

But that also shows he does not need to rely only on raw pace, he can bowl at 85 mph and swing it like a boomerang if we used top quality SG balls, basically a freakier version of Dale Steyn.

The technically inept WI batsmen made it a lot lot easier for him. 

[vvvslaxman]

6 hours ago, mani sha said:

I saw him bowl towards end . Fabulous bowler . Will walk into indian team in any foreign pitch and on indian pitches he will not be picked ahead of shami and yadav and bumrah - he was the ultimate swing bowler and not A skid dy bowler nor was he express fast . He was praveen kumar with 10 k more and built like a bull . 

On the same Indian pitches he took a 11fer against Pakistan at Chepauk and sent the nation crazy.  His average at home is mere 26 at a strike rate of 55. His overseas average is somewhat poor except in Australia, Windies two of the best teams back then.

[MechEng]

9 hours ago, MK55 said:

The technically inept WI batsmen made it a lot lot easier for him. 

You don't have to always bowl to ATG batsmen to bowl ATG bowling spells. I wish Bumrah played vs South Africa seeing the way Umesh and Shami were knocking down stumps.

[First class]

Kapil has been one of the all time great cricketer and all rounder. If we leave his captaincy, batting, fitness aside and compare his bowling with the current Indian pace bowlers, Kapil still would be way ahead of the current ones, including Burmah. Shami will end up way short of Kapil's status as a bowler, even if he kept performing for rest of his career. Burmah, if remains fit and in-form for another 10 years, will match Kapil's greatness a bowler, but its too early to talk about that ATM. 

[singhprakash72]

Kapil dev would have easly made it in current side with just his bowling..not to forget his batting and fielding. He probably bowled at mid 130s but had great outswinger as well inswing dipping yorkers....watch his ball to McSweeney at 6:30...not to forget the ball to Qasim Omar

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, singhprakash72 said:

Kapil dev would have easly made it in current side with just his bowling..not to forget his batting and fielding. He probably bowled at mid 130s but had great outswinger as well inswing dipping yorkers....watch his ball to McSweeney at 6:30...not to forget the ball to Qasim Omar

 

 

 

 

Did you hear Bill lawry saying "Sheer pace" Yes he was not a trundler as we would like to believe just because he had a super easy run up.

[Muloghonto]

He’d easily walk into the team as the #1 or #2 pacer in the team after Bumrah in LOIs and Tests.

[First class]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

He’d easily walk into the team as the #1 or #2 pacer in the team after Bumrah in LOIs and Tests.

Ahead of Burmah, in tests and ODIs.