List of individuals who deserve credit for India’s fast bowling?

[Gollum]

27 minutes ago, putrevus said:

MRF academy and Mr.Ravi Mammen who just for sake of love of the game invested his time and money.

 

47 minutes ago, maniac said:

Also this Mammen guy is an unsung hero

That article says Mr Mammen died at the young age of 39. His brother Vinoo wanted to continue that legacy, so took charge  somewehere in the period between 1989 and '91, that family continues to invest in the academy till date via Vinoo's son. Seriously how many even knew about them? We all knew MRF, Lillee, Sekhar, Arun, McGrath etc but the real heroes are the generous donors especially those who started this initiative without knowing whether it would be successful or not. Even as recently as 5 years ago MRF pace academy was a butt of jokes on this forum. It will be difficult to even find a pic of Ravi Mannen on the net. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

 

[Gollum]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Sekhar is to Indian fast bowling what Gopichand is to Indian badminton. What are Sekhar’s genes? 

Except Gopi was already an established star in the world of badminton. Those days Sekar being a lightweight in his international career would have resulted in more roadblocks for him, in our culture we give less respect to those who haven't achieved success at the highest level eons ago. In this country a JEE rank holds value many years later, tag ka kamaal hai bhai. Not the case in Australia where a Terry Jenner was always a big influence for budding talents irrespective of lack of success in his playing days. Our old habit, coaching has nothing to do with playing career, yet we mock the coaches who weren't stalwarts.  

 

Gopi had the creds, Sekar was a nobody...so to see him graduate from being Lillee's protege to making his own name deserves credit. Most of our current bowling stars made the final push under his supervision. You can make a parallel of him with Ramachandran Ramesh, a lowly ranked GM who was unknown till 2013. He runs a GM factory via his academy Chess Gurukul in Chennai modelled along the lines of USSR's Botvinik School. Another unsung hero who teaches many talents from underpriviled background for free and spends money from his own pocket to arrange camps with other academies/clubs around the world. Just a couple of weeks back a joint camp of our juniors and Indonesian senior team in T Nagar. Their academy has become so good that top clubs from Moscow and Budapest are lining up to come to India. Ramesh has been selflessly doing his bit for many years,got fruits in 2013 when his student Arvindh Chidambaram (poor kid with single parent) caught the attention of Carlsen's touring party, primarily Norwegian journos..then became media sensation and many donors from all across the globe. Since then many young GMs including world's 2nd youngest one Rameshbabu Praggnandhaa.

 

Sorry buddy, neither Ramesh nor Sekhar from land of Telugus . 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

Since we are talking about individuals 

Like of gillespie , malinga , akram in who helped bumrah, shami, ishant in IPL or county . 

[maniac]

4 hours ago, Vilander said:

Umesh and Aaron, for inspiring a gen of pacers who primarily rely on pace.

 

Indian TM ( Kohli/Shastri /Arun) for enabling them

 

NCA and other fitness institutions for enabling them.

Aaron is not an inspiration, if anything proves that pace without skills doesn’t amount to much

[Vk1]

16 minutes ago, maniac said:

Aaron is not an inspiration, if anything proves that pace without skills doesn’t amount to much

Though Aaron didn't do much, any youngster would surely get excited to see two pacers being able to breach the 145 mark consistently. Aaron along with Umesh has helped in creating that aura around our fast bowlers..

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, maniac said:

Sure, IPl helps in featuring talents and giving them a platform but this didn’t happen overnight. It was an eventual progress from the days of Ramakant Desai and Karsan Ghavri.

 

Bumrah is probably the only guy from the IPL gen but we started producing good fast bowlers from a grass root levels over the years and it has to do with initiatives taken by BCCI.

 

For example whoever came up with the MRF PCR academy and TA Sekhar deserve a lot more credit than the IPL.

 

 

Ishant was the case and Irfan sreesanth rp swing etc. Ishant though sucked and then got back with a new version of himself. 

 

Mrf was always there but specifically for good pace bowling not for fast bowling in particular. Venky was a good bowler but not a fast bowler. Irfan was a very good bowler but not a fast bowler. That changed big time after umesh and aaron.

[Vilander]

57 minutes ago, maniac said:

Aaron is not an inspiration, if anything proves that pace without skills doesn’t amount to much

I was carefull to add umesh and aaron. The reason is as a group right there it says you can bowl super quick and get into india reckoning post that its how you keep developing what works for u. Basic hygine factor of first class level skill is definite.

[Rightarmfast]

Read RKT's comment about Agarkar and Zak, and while I totally agree about Aaron and Umesh, I daresay he is wrong about the former 2 bowlers. I mean Agarkar, for that frame bowling consistently 140+ around 1998 and matching all Pakistani bowlers for pace except Shoaib, was a sight to see.

Agarkar was instrumental in establishing the fact that Indians could bowl fast. There were TV programs hosted by none other than Harsha' indians are not fast' bhogle, talking specifically about Agarkar's pace. And when Zak had come to the scene, he bowled at 145 in the first tournament itself. That definitely was a step forward towards Aaron and Umesh. 

 

Tbh, I find this bullsheet that Indians have started bowling fast just now. Srinath started it, Agarkar took on the mantle, followed by Zak, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth etc. India always have had bowlers bowling at around 145 from 92/93 onwards. They were just not credited. 

[maniac]

10 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Read RKT's comment about Agarkar and Zak, and while I totally agree about Aaron and Umesh, I daresay he is wrong about the former 2 bowlers. I mean Agarkar, for that frame bowling consistently 140+ around 1998 and matching all Pakistani bowlers for pace except Shoaib, was a sight to see.

Agarkar was instrumental in establishing the fact that Indians could bowl fast. There were TV programs hosted by none other than Harsha' indians are not fast' bhogle, talking specifically about Agarkar's pace. And when Zak had come to the scene, he bowled at 145 in the first tournament itself. That definitely was a step forward towards Aaron and Umesh. 

 

Tbh, I find this bullsheet that Indians have started bowling fast just now. Srinath started it, Agarkar took on the mantle, followed by Zak, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth etc. India always have had bowlers bowling at around 145 from 92/93 onwards. They were just not credited. 

It was a gradual evolving process from a complete spin attack with Gavaskar and Pataudi taking shine off the balls to Desai and then to Kapil with a guy like Ghavri to Kapil and dibbly dobbly bowlers like Madan Lal,Binny to a decent pair in Kapil and Prabhakar to Srinath and then Prasad partnering him to all the way till now. Someone needs to get credit for laying the foundation.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Speed Guns

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[maniac]

Whom exactly did Wasim Akram groom at KKR? Not being a smart ass genuine doubt?

[Ankit_sharma03]

29 minutes ago, maniac said:

Whom exactly did Wasim Akram groom at KKR? Not being a smart ass genuine doubt?

Shami in his early years was at kkr. He has mentioned in his interviews how wasim use to give him old balls in nets and helped him work on reverse swing . Even umesh was with kkr for quite some years...

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cricketcountry.com/articles/mohammed-shami-became-the-bowler-he-is-now-because-of-wasim-akram-33291/amp/

 

https://m.timesofindia.com/pakistan-in-india-2012/interviews/Shami-thanks-Wasim-Akram-for-honing-his-seam-bowling-skills/articleshow/17733240.cms

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Ankit_sharma03

[First class]

Arun was pacy but did not achieve much to inspire many. Umesh is the guy, been through tough time when he was called spray gun and what not but never compromised on pace. On current form, he is one of the best in the world and I'm sure many young fast bowlers in this big country dreaming to become like him, that's an inspiration. 

[gattaca]

6 hours ago, maniac said:

Sure, IPl helps in featuring talents and giving them a platform but this didn’t happen overnight. It was an eventual progress from the days of Ramakant Desai and Karsan Ghavri.

 

Bumrah is probably the only guy from the IPL gen but we started producing good fast bowlers from a grass root levels over the years and it has to do with initiatives taken by BCCI.

 

For example whoever came up with the MRF PCR academy and TA Sekhar deserve a lot more credit than the IPL.

 

 

MRF pace academy has been there for long time though. The problem is visibility IPL provided and youngsters followed that. 

[gattaca]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Read RKT's comment about Agarkar and Zak, and while I totally agree about Aaron and Umesh, I daresay he is wrong about the former 2 bowlers. I mean Agarkar, for that frame bowling consistently 140+ around 1998 and matching all Pakistani bowlers for pace except Shoaib, was a sight to see.

Agarkar was instrumental in establishing the fact that Indians could bowl fast. There were TV programs hosted by none other than Harsha' indians are not fast' bhogle, talking specifically about Agarkar's pace. And when Zak had come to the scene, he bowled at 145 in the first tournament itself. That definitely was a step forward towards Aaron and Umesh. 

 

Tbh, I find this bullsheet that Indians have started bowling fast just now. Srinath started it, Agarkar took on the mantle, followed by Zak, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth etc. India always have had bowlers bowling at around 145 from 92/93 onwards. They were just not credited. 

Regarding the last part of the post. Indians have bowled fast in the past but just not as a pair of bowlers now they do that along with improved accuracy and setting up batsman. In the past for every Srinath there was venkatesh Prasad. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by gattaca

[maniac]

30 minutes ago, gattaca said:

MRF pace academy has been there for long time though. The problem is visibility IPL provided and youngsters followed that. 

2003 wc we had one of the finest pace attacks we put together. Every one was hitting 140+ and we had Agarkar on the bench another 140+ bowler. That was way before the IPl. 
 

As I said ipl definitely gives a lot more exposure to the talent on a big stage but the evolution is a gradual process.

 

One of my fave series was the 96 SA tour. In that every commentator said that India always had one good fast bowler but the first time they saw 2 decent quicks troubling the opposition. Sure Venky was a trundler and we remember him getting bashed by Anwar and Jayasuriya but still he was a very skillful bowler and complemented Srinath for a while to make us somewhat competitive.  Then Agarkar came in, then Zak and since then we have been on the up.

 

Sure IPl helped fasten the debut of guys like Umesh or Aaron  or even Bumrah but still most fast bowlers the good to decent ones we produced all came up through a proper system and MRF had a lot to do with it.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by maniac

[maniac]

Just look at WC timelines to see how we have evolved 

 

I will start from 83  because we obviously sucked in the bowling department prior to that

 

83- Kapil + bits and pieces trundlers

87- Kapil ,Chetan Sharma,Prabhakar

92- Kapil, Prabhakar,Srinath, Subroto Banarjee

96- Srinath, Prasad, Prabhakar, Ankola 

99- Srinath,Prasad, Mohanty,Agarkar,Robin Singh

2003- Srinath,Nehra,Zak,Agarkar

2007- Zak,Agarkar, Pathan, Sreeshanth, Munaf

2011- Zak,Nehra, Munaf,Sreeshanth

2015- Umesh,Shami,Mohit,Bhuvi,Binny

2019- Bumrah,Bhuvi, Shami, Hardik Pandya

 

 

That seems like a perfect evolutionary list to me

 

[Mosher]

3 hours ago, First class said:

Arun was pacy but did not achieve much to inspire many. Umesh is the guy, been through tough time when he was called spray gun and what not but never compromised on pace. On current form, he is one of the best in the world and I'm sure many young fast bowlers in this big country dreaming to become like him, that's an inspiration. 

 

7 hours ago, maniac said:

Aaron is not an inspiration, if anything proves that pace without skills doesn’t amount to much

Aaron even after multiple stress fractures and other injuries keeps running in and bowling quick and has not taken the easy way out and reduced pace like so many our yesteryear fast bowlers. He's already inspired next gen of Indian pacers by doing that. Mavi is one of them.

 

"Mavi says that the IPL too has been a major influence on his bowling; there was inspiration there—“Varun Aaron, Umesh Yadav, they injected new life into Indian fast bowling,” he says. “Aaron has returned from seven injury breaks without reducing his pace.”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/world-cup-2019-how-india-grew-into-a-fast-bowling-nation/story-RZgkcrG2f3keWi5vQlV1IP.html

[maniac]

18 minutes ago, Mosher said:

 

Aaron even after multiple stress fractures and other injuries keeps running in and bowling quick and has not taken the easy way out and reduced pace like so many our yesteryear fast bowlers. He's already inspired next gen of Indian pacers by doing that. Mavi is one of them.

 

"Mavi says that the IPL too has been a major influence on his bowling; there was inspiration there—“Varun Aaron, Umesh Yadav, they injected new life into Indian fast bowling,” he says. “Aaron has returned from seven injury breaks without reducing his pace.”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/world-cup-2019-how-india-grew-into-a-fast-bowling-nation/story-RZgkcrG2f3keWi5vQlV1IP.html

Sure inspiring at an individual level but Aaron has not broken the ceiling like Yadav and Shami.  I am not mentioning Ishu ( damn apple by default goes Ishu into autocorrect mode for me  ) because he has had backing from his captains. Pace + skills is what I love. 
 

You probably know better but Shami has great seam position, Umesh has a killer outswinger. They bowl at the same pace as Varun give or take. Aaron from what I have seen has none.

 

Bumrah has got mad skills. 
 

Aaron can keep his pace but needs to work on skills as well. Unless you are ridiculously fast  at 150+ like Tait or someone, just bowling at 145+ doesn’t cut it these days. 
 

look at cummins, he was 150+ but now he is 140-145 range with skills. Starc can be one dimensional but has got a killer yorker, Archer has a damn good short ball, Rabada has skills.

 

This might be unpopular opinion but I will pick Bhuvi over Aaron (last seen of him version).

 

Sure if your option is Unadkut or Kulkarni and Aaron then Aaron any day.