Overrated great test cricketers

[zen]

From those who have played 100 or more Tests .... Note that being overrated does not imply that they are bad but that they are praised more relative to their performances. Overall, these are still great cricketers .... Many of these will be Indian cricketers who enjoy long careers due to a relatively lack of competition and fan following. Many of these play multiple formats so performance in one can be perceived as compensating the other in a time where there were a lot of common players among the formats .... This is for test cricket only and in the order of debut: 

 

• Kapil Dev. A competitive cricketer, who has certain highlights in his career. However has been mediocre as well for e.g. went wicketless in a 3 match test series vs. Aus in 1986. Went on to pursue a meaningless record of most test wickets when he played like 50 more tests than the guy whose record he broke. Many folks say that his bowling record could have been better if not for Indian pitches, but then his batting avg should be better by playing on batting friendly tracks. For a swing bowler, has a poor record in Eng. All this does not take away from the fact that he was supremely talented and competitive in WI and Aus, but in terms of translating that talent into consistent performances, he did not live up to his expectations. 
• Wasim Akram. As one of the premier test bowlers, he could have achieved a lot more. I can understand that his average can be influenced by playing relatively more on batting friendly tracks in Pakistan but apart from in NZ against whom Pakistanis tend to do well, he does not have a great record in other such countries. Compared to other top bowlers, he has a lot of lower order test wickets, which as a positive can be considered a specialist of cleaning up the tail. Has a poor record in SA (has played only 2 tests but as a pace bowler could have performed). Like Kapil could be a case where ODI performances influence how he is perceived in tests. 
• Sachin Tendulkar. A great batsman and one of my favorites. However, in tests, I perceive him as a "by the numbers" batsman - score a good looking 50 or a 100 and consider the job done. It is like a corporate employee switching his mind off once the clock hits 5 pm. While I may recollect those good looking mini knocks appreciating his straight drives, I cannot recall too many series defining performances especially overseas where his expertise would have helped his team a lot more.  Despite having such a player in the ranks, India could not even win a test series in Zim in the 90s and early 00s. 
• Anil Kumble. A king at home but usually a no show outside. To me, he never gave too much confidence that he would run through a side outside India. Even his 5-ers could be a business where the other team gets restricted at best. Once in a blue moon, he could perform. Normally, I would not bother to mention him but he stands out by playing 130+ tests. 
• Glenn McGrath. A bowling great who usually feasted on Eng, NZ, Pak, and WI in the 00s. 84 of his 124 tests are against these 4 teams. Has a relatively poor record against the strongest team of his time - SA.

 

 

[MechEng]

Let's not judge players by purely match winning abilities because people watch test cricket for mostly aesthetic reasons. Those great test wins are rare as most tests end in draws.

 

For me only one test player was kind of overrated - Harold Larwood. He was fast by 1930s standards but not express pace. 

[Gollum]

Only retired ones cos the active players can still redeem their reputation. 

• Gavaskar...made merry against 2nd string WI and Aus bowlers to inflate his numbers
• Sachin
• Dravid
• Kumble
• Kapil
• Herath...can't understand how people make fun of Indian spinners for being HTBs whilst overlooking his 45+ avg outside Asia, failed miserably in Ind as well
• Murali
• Sanga
• Akram
• Waqar
• Imran the biggest cheat this sport has seen
• Miandad
• Qadir
• Inzi
• YK (again guys like Anwar and Yousuf are overrated but even Pakistani fans can't call them greats)
• Holding
• Lara
• Most old era Poms, quite a lot of modern era players, just check the HOF list (Gooch, Gower )
• Amla
• ABDV
• Many RSA players from 70s and 80s who have mythical status
• Ponting (Hussey, Clarke the ultimate HTBs but are they considered great? )
• Greg Chappell
• Lillee

Only Kiwis aren't overrated, though too much is made of Bond who was unproven in conditions outside his comfort zone. 

Indian batsmen are highly overrated, same is true for almost all Pak greats. Poms live in an alternate universe where every county ka raja is ATG in their eyes !!!

 

PS- Overrated doesn't mean a knock on their greatness. A Sachin or Lillee won't stop being great just cos they are overrated. Like how Federer is a top 3 player of all time but still overrated, similarly Pele, Hamilton, Fischer, Tyson in their respective disciplines. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Gollum

[MechEng]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Only retired ones cos the active players can still redeem their reputation. 

• Gavaskar...made merry against 2nd string WI and Aus bowlers to inflate his numbers
• Sachin
• Dravid
• Kumble
• Kapil
• Herath...can't understand how people make fun of Indian spinners for being HTBs whilst overlooking his 45+ avg outside Asia, failed miserably in Ind as well
• Murali
• Sanga
• Akram
• Waqar
• Imran the biggest cheat this sport has seen
• Miandad
• Qadir
• Inzi
• YK (again guys like Anwar and Yousuf are overrated but even Pakistani fans can't call them greats)
• Holding
• Lara
• Most old era Poms, quite a lot of modern era players, just check the HOF list (Gooch, Gower )
• Amla
• ABDV
• Many RSA players from 70s and 80s who have mythical status
• Ponting (Hussey, Clarke the ultimate HTBs but are they considered great? )
• Greg Chappell
• Lillee

Only Kiwis aren't overrated, though too much is made of Bond who was unproven in conditions outside his comfort zone. 

Indian batsmen are highly overrated, same is true for almost all Pak greats. Poms live in an alternate universe where every county ka raja is ATG in their eyes !!!

 

PS- Overrated doesn't mean a knock on their greatness. A Sachin or Lillee won't stop being great just cos they are overrated. Like how Federer is a top 3 player of all time but still overrated, similarly Pele, Hamilton, Fischer, Tyson in their respective disciplines. 

Haha, so true!

[Nikola]

Here are few more

 

Donald (Poor against top side of his time)

Warne (Poor against best spin playing nation of his time)

Steyn (Avg of almost 30 against top side of his era Aus & Eng and he didn't even face peak aus side)

 

[Suhaan]

So we have got almost everyone in that list 

One can give benefit of doubt to few of them(bogey team)

[Gollum]

Laaloo, too many Sachins on the list, kar saale trollvote ab...

[Nikola]

On 5/7/2020 at 9:42 AM, Gollum said:

Only retired ones cos the active players can still redeem their reputation. 

• Gavaskar...made merry against 2nd string WI and Aus bowlers to inflate his numbers
• Sachin
• Dravid
• Kumble
• Kapil
• Herath...can't understand how people make fun of Indian spinners for being HTBs whilst overlooking his 45+ avg outside Asia, failed miserably in Ind as well
• Murali
• Sanga
• Akram
• Waqar
• Imran the biggest cheat this sport has seen
• Miandad
• Qadir
• Inzi
• YK (again guys like Anwar and Yousuf are overrated but even Pakistani fans can't call them greats)
• Holding
• Lara
• Most old era Poms, quite a lot of modern era players, just check the HOF list (Gooch, Gower )
• Amla
• ABDV
• Many RSA players from 70s and 80s who have mythical status
• Ponting (Hussey, Clarke the ultimate HTBs but are they considered great? )
• Greg Chappell
• Lillee

Only Kiwis aren't overrated, though too much is made of Bond who was unproven in conditions outside his comfort zone. 

Indian batsmen are highly overrated, same is true for almost all Pak greats. Poms live in an alternate universe where every county ka raja is ATG in their eyes !!!

 

PS- Overrated doesn't mean a knock on their greatness. A Sachin or Lillee won't stop being great just cos they are overrated. Like how Federer is a top 3 player of all time but still overrated, similarly Pele, Hamilton, Fischer, Tyson in their respective disciplines. 

Taylor (his career is almost done), Baz are overrated. Kane, Boult too are overrated but aren't retired yet.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Nikola

[Sooda]

There are holes in the records of ANY great cricketer... between the above posts I think we have listed most all time greats proving that if you look hard enough you will see what you want to see

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, Sooda said:

There are holes in the records of ANY great cricketer... between the above posts I think we have listed most all time greats proving that if you look hard enough you will see what you want to see

Even ATGs can be overrated, no? 

[zen]

Usually, this is how I consider performances in tests:

 

No Asian Teams 

• Aus in Eng (Ashes and conditions), Aus batsmen vs. Pak (when it had a good bowling attack), Aus players vs. SA (home & away), and Aus players vs. WI till mid 90s 
• Eng players vs. Aus, SA, Pak (when it had a good bowling attack), and WI till mid 90s 
• NZ players vs. Eng, SA, Aus (rivals), Pak (when it had a good bowling attack), and WI till mid 90s 
• SA players vs. Aus (rivals), Eng, Pak (when it had a good bowling attack) and WI till mid 90s
• WI players vs. Aus (rivalry till 90s), SA, Eng, NZ,  Pak (when it had a good bowling attack), SL (only w/ Murali and the team became stronger)

 

Asian Teams

• Ind players vs. Pak (rivals), Eng, SA, NZ, and Aus and WI till mid 90s. SL vs. Murali and some freak bowler.  In NZ, they tend to struggle unless the pitches are batting friendly and/or NZ too weak so I can do a write off (2002 and 2020 for e.g.) or can take it case by case basis 
• Pak players in SA, Aus, and WI till mid 90s. These guys somehow do well vs. Ind (usually had an ordinary bowling attack relatively speaking esp. pre mid 90s), Eng, and NZ so it is case by case basis. Also the pitches they play are relatively sporting than what Ind gets in Eng and NZ to account Pak's bowling attack 
• SL in SENA, Pak, and Ind. When SL became good, teams like WI were going down  

 

Do not consider too much (case by case basis)

• Performance in Ind  (esp. post 80s) and SL (unless vs. Murali) on tailored pitches where likes of Raju and Joshi can look good. Only two countries where spin plays a big role. I usually do a write off for visiting teams like I do for Ind in NZ unless the performance of visitors is good or in acceptable conditions   
• Bad performances in Pak esp. pre 90s when they had those dreadful umpires and pitches where the doctored ball could make things happen. If the performance is good vs. these factors, I take it into account. Write off Pak players performances in Pak for those reasons esp. in the pre 90s period
• Performance vs. BD and Zim unless the other team is not winning vs. them for some reason 
• Performance vs. post the mid 90s WIs 

Edited May 9, 2020 by zen

[Vilander]

On 5/6/2020 at 2:08 PM, zen said:

From those who have played 100 or more Tests .... Note that being overrated does not imply that they are bad but that they are praised more relative to their performances. Overall, these are still great cricketers .... Many of these will be Indian cricketers who enjoy long careers due to a relatively lack of competition and fan following. Many of these play multiple formats so performance in one can be perceived as compensating the other in a time where there were a lot of common players among the formats .... This is for test cricket only and in the order of debut: 

 

• Kapil Dev. A competitive cricketer, who has certain highlights in his career. However has been mediocre as well for e.g. went wicketless in a 3 match test series vs. Aus in 1986. Went on to pursue a meaningless record of most test wickets when he played like 50 more tests than the guy whose record he broke. Many folks say that his bowling record could have been better if not for Indian pitches, but then his batting avg should be better by playing on batting friendly tracks. For a swing bowler, has a poor record in Eng. All this does not take away from the fact that he was supremely talented and competitive in WI and Aus, but in terms of translating that talent into consistent performances, he did not live up to his expectations. 
• Wasim Akram. As one of the premier test bowlers, he could have achieved a lot more. I can understand that his average can be influenced by playing relatively more on batting friendly tracks in Pakistan but apart from in NZ against whom Pakistanis tend to do well, he does not have a great record in other such countries. Compared to other top bowlers, he has a lot of lower order test wickets, which as a positive can be considered a specialist of cleaning up the tail. Has a poor record in SA (has played only 2 tests but as a pace bowler could have performed). Like Kapil could be a case where ODI performances influence how he is perceived in tests. 
• Sachin Tendulkar. A great batsman and one of my favorites. However, in tests, I perceive him as a "by the numbers" batsman - score a good looking 50 or a 100 and consider the job done. It is like a corporate employee switching his mind off once the clock hits 5 pm. While I may recollect those good looking mini knocks appreciating his straight drives, I cannot recall too many series defining performances especially overseas where his expertise would have helped his team a lot more.  Despite having such a player in the ranks, India could not even win a test series in Zim in the 90s and early 00s. 
• Anil Kumble. A king at home but usually a no show outside. To me, he never gave too much confidence that he would run through a side outside India. Even his 5-ers could be a business where the other team gets restricted at best. Once in a blue moon, he could perform. Normally, I would not bother to mention him but he stands out by playing 130+ tests. 
• Glenn McGrath. A bowling great who usually feasted on Eng, NZ, Pak, and WI in the 00s. 84 of his 124 tests are against these 4 teams. Has a relatively poor record against the strongest team of his time - SA.

 

 

Very good post but will be unpopular. My opinion is, McGrath had some difficulty against SA, Anil had problems overseas did not spin the ball. Sachin has numbers was seldom the rock that won games on his own in tests but great numbers. Wasim has poor test record in certain critical scenarios . All the above v good players but often bracketed in atg by their overall exploits for eg sachin Wasim due to their odi god level numbers , McGrath due to dominance he achieved in Warnes company etc. Kapil was great player overseas but not as great as he is made out to be. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

Mcgrath avg 27 against Sa which is relatively bad as to his record against other sides but 27 still is a good avg. 

 

Their other guys like thomspon, johnson,lee career avg is 28-30

 

If we are looking at perfect cricketers well that aint happening.

[Prabhdeep Singh]

Brian Lara (only 8 match winning hundreds in test cricket). Sachin has 20 hundreds.

 

Apart from the 1999 series Vs Aus he did not make that much of an impact in terms of results for team. Even in the 1999 series, the hundreds resulted in a series draw not win.

 

Most of his hundreds are in draws/loses. West Indies was a very good side until 1999.

 

Yet when you ask experts they say Lara was more match winning. The only inning i see is the 153*, that's all.

Maybe the 213 at Jamaica.

 

Few of Tundulkar Hundreds that were good and resulted in wins are.

 

103* Vs Eng (Chennai 2008)

155* Vs Aus (Chennai 1998)

214 Vs Aus (Bangalore 2010)

193 Vs Eng (Headingly 2002)

194* Vs Pak (Multan 2004)

160 Vs NZ (Hamilton 2009)

 

Also experts from other countries do not like to praise an Indian at the expense of a non Asian Player.

[coffee_rules]

A lot of players in the list is unwarranted. Agree with Sooda every cricketers has holes. My criteria of home vs away record is a good criteria for ATGness. 
 

Javed Miandad has the biggest difference in home vs away. Some players like Border, Sachin, Dravid are opposite. Their away stats are better than home or have 50+ away average

 

[rtmohanlal]

Kapil over rated?? He is rightly rated if not under rated. For a seam bowling all rounder  with lots of adverse contexts, to have such a   track record  as his is   well justified.

In my opinion the one player who is still by far over rated is that chronic ball tamperor Imran Khan. He is the biggest beneficiary of this dirty trick. People who believe in ethics & fair play can never  still rate him that high   as  was the case once.