Top 3 Test ARs

[zen]

Criteria:

• Decent batting average 
• Bowling workload of/close to a specialist bowler
• Wkts > number of inning bowled (or Wally Hammond, Steve Waugh, etc., can be considered as ARs too rather than batsmen who can bowl) 
• Record excluding BD and Zim 
• Batting avg > bowling avg (unless a special scenario) 

 

 

Contenders in the order of debut:

• Keith Miller (1946-1958) - Batting avg 37, bowling avg 23
• Garry Sobers (1954-1974) - Batting avg 58, bowling avg 34 (bowled as many overs as a specialist bowler - 20+ overs per inning)
• Mike Procter (1967-1970) - Batting avg 25, bowling avg 15. FC batting avg of 36 w/ 48 100s and bowling avg of 20 w/ 70 5-ers
• Imran Khan (1971-1992) - Batting avg 38, bowling avg 23
• Richard Hadlee (1973-1990) - Batting avg 27, bowling avg 22. Acceptable batting avg of 27 if you batted in Kiwi conditions 
• Ian Botham (1977-1992) - Batting avg 34, bowling avg 28
• Kapil Dev (1978-1994) - Batting avg 31, bowling avg 30
• S Pollock (1995-2008) - Batting avg 32, bowling avg 24
• Sakib Al Hassan (2007-Present) - Batting avg 40, bowling avg 32

 

 

Notable omission(s): 

• Jacques Kallis (1995-2013) - Batting avg 53, bowling avg 35. Bowled on an avg. 12.5 overs per inning so his workload is not close to a specialist bowler's. For comparison, Garry Sobers bowled on an avg 22-23 overs per inning, bowling pace and spin per situation, to account for a workload of a specialist bowler. 

 

 

Top 3

• Garry Sobers - phenomenal w/ the bat while taking on the bowling workload of a specialist bowler. Generally known as the greatest cricketer 
• Imran Khan - a great balance b/w a bowling and batting AR 
• Richard Hadlee - one of the biggest test match winners 
• Honorable mentions - Keith Miller - known as Australia's greatest AR  and Mike Proctor, great FC record and bowling average 

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

My top3

1. Kallis : mammoth longevity  , able seam bowler  with almost  as good a record as Zaheer khan and a batsman  who even can rival       Dravid. Bowling in the company of great fast bowlers helped him enormously though.

 

2. Gary Sobers : lags in longevity compared to Kallis,

 

3. Kapil  : stats achieved against huge adversities.

Botham would be a very close 4rth. Miller lacks longevity &  a proven track record in Asia

 

           

[zen]

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kallis : mammoth longevity  , able seam bowler  with almost  as good a record as Zaheer khan          

 

Are you comparing Zaheer Khan with Kallis as bowlers?  .... Zaheer is a better bowler than Kallis, who only bowled in a relatively limited capacity for SA 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India  or South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1995 and 1 Jan 2014

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 36

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
VD Philander (SA)	2011-2013	20	39	693.3	173	1891	105	6/44	10/102	18.00	2.72	39.6	9	2
AA Donald (SA)	1995-2002	52	93	1817.3	480	5135	241	6/53	11/127	21.30	2.82	45.2	15	1
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2013	65	122	2339.2	494	7638	328	7/51	11/60	23.28	3.26	42.7	21	5
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	100	186	3827.2	1144	9238	389	7/87	10/147	23.74	2.41	59.0	15	1
J Srinath (INDIA)	1995-2002	44	76	1610.4	390	4824	165	8/86	13/132	29.23	2.99	58.5	9	1
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	90	168	3157.3	668	10391	349	7/37	13/132	29.77	3.29	54.2	17	4
M Morkel (SA)	2006-2013	49	92	1631.2	349	5104	169	6/23	8/196	30.20	3.12	57.9	5	0
A Nel (SA)	2002-2008	33	63	1188.5	253	3692	114	6/32	10/88	32.38	3.10	62.5	3	1
Z Khan (INDIA)	2001-2013	77	135	2652.0	539	8539	250	5/29	9/134	34.15	3.21	63.6	8	0
JH Kallis (SA)	1995-2013	153	250	3147.1	788	8949	253	6/54	9/92	35.37	2.84	74.6	3	0

 

Both Nitini and Kallis have bowled similar number of overs. One guy has done that in 168 games, while other took 250 matches (82 games more!) 

 

 

Your comment reminded me of a funny article where someone said that Kallis = Tendulkar as batsman + Zaheer as bowler - https://www.cricketcountry.com/criclife/kallis-gave-sa-the-combined-value-of-tendulkar-the-batsman-zaheer-the-bowler-and-dravid-the-fielder-498777 

 

 

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Kapil  : stats achieved against huge adversities.

  

[rtmohanlal]

14 hours ago, zen said:

 

Are you comparing Zaheer Khan with Kallis as bowlers?  .... Zaheer is a better bowler than Kallis, who only bowled in a relatively limited capacity for SA 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India  or South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1995 and 1 Jan 2014

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 36

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 10 of 10

First Previous

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
VD Philander (SA)	2011-2013	20	39	693.3	173	1891	105	6/44	10/102	18.00	2.72	39.6	9	2
AA Donald (SA)	1995-2002	52	93	1817.3	480	5135	241	6/53	11/127	21.30	2.82	45.2	15	1
DW Steyn (SA)	2004-2013	65	122	2339.2	494	7638	328	7/51	11/60	23.28	3.26	42.7	21	5
SM Pollock (SA)	1995-2008	100	186	3827.2	1144	9238	389	7/87	10/147	23.74	2.41	59.0	15	1
J Srinath (INDIA)	1995-2002	44	76	1610.4	390	4824	165	8/86	13/132	29.23	2.99	58.5	9	1
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	90	168	3157.3	668	10391	349	7/37	13/132	29.77	3.29	54.2	17	4
M Morkel (SA)	2006-2013	49	92	1631.2	349	5104	169	6/23	8/196	30.20	3.12	57.9	5	0
A Nel (SA)	2002-2008	33	63	1188.5	253	3692	114	6/32	10/88	32.38	3.10	62.5	3	1
Z Khan (INDIA)	2001-2013	77	135	2652.0	539	8539	250	5/29	9/134	34.15	3.21	63.6	8	0
JH Kallis (SA)	1995-2013	153	250	3147.1	788	8949	253	6/54	9/92	35.37	2.84	74.6	3	0

 

Both Nitini and Kallis have bowled similar number of overs. One guy has done that in 168 games, while other took 250 matches (82 games more!) 

 

 

Your comment reminded me of a funny article where someone said that Kallis = Tendulkar as batsman + Zaheer as bowler - https://www.cricketcountry.com/criclife/kallis-gave-sa-the-combined-value-of-tendulkar-the-batsman-zaheer-the-bowler-and-dravid-the-fielder-498777 

 

 

  

i just said comparable and that is pretty evident from stats itself. Averages so closer to each other  despite Kallis bowling some  3000 balls more.And agreed that Zaheer was the better bowler because of the far lesser support  he got and also bowling his overs in far lesser number of inns.

 

Yes, Kapil had huge adversities in bowling when pitted against some one like Botham. Botham had Willis,Underwood etc while Kapil had dibbly dobblies. Also Kapil achieved  his average      after bowling a whopping  5925 balls(27%) more when compared to Botham. Kapil bowled his first 21815 balls(same as that of Botham)  at 32% more work density(balls/year) .

 

In batting too Kapil batted at 7 where as Botham was at 6. And Kapil had 81-82.5 str: from that position.Kapil was far better in Windies too .All these counts.

[zen]

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

i just said comparable and that is pretty evident from stats itself. Averages so closer to each other  despite Kallis bowling some  3000 balls more.And agreed that Zaheer was the better bowler because of the far lesser support  he got and also bowling his overs in far lesser number of inns.

  

 

"3,000 balls more"  as Kallis has played more games but on per inning basis, he has bowled much less  .... also Zaheer being a better bowler has nothing to do with the support or other things that you have written - Zaheer is simply a better bowler on bowling skills and any team would prefer him over Kallis as a strike bowler. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

Yes, Kapil had huge adversities in bowling when pitted against some one like Botham. Botham had Willis,Underwood etc while Kapil had dibbly dobblies. Also Kapil achieved  his average      after bowling a whopping  5925 balls(27%) more when compared to Botham. Kapil bowled his first 21815 balls(same as that of Botham)  at 32% more work density(balls/year) .

 

In batting too Kapil batted at 7 where as Botham was at 6. And Kapil had 81-82.5 str: from that position.Kapil was far better in Windies too .All these counts

 

A player stats maybe influenced by other factors but that does not make him automatically better. For e.g. Marshall is a better bowler than Kapil, if Marshall faced the same factors as Kapil did (assuming those influenced him), Marshall would likely outperform Kapil with the ball ....  Not many are going to suggest the lines that Kapil is a better bowler than Marshall because he faced this or that and/or has more wickets than Marshall. A similar case applies for Kapil the AR. If Kapil is ending up with an bowling avg. of 30, he would ideally have liked to have an batting avg that his at least 15-25% higher than his bowling average irrespective of where and how he batted. 

 

You may prefer Kapil and seek to find reasons as to why he did not perform as he should have, but he was mediocre in many of the series esp. as a bowling AR. If not playing for India, his career could have ended earlier. 

 

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, zen said:

  

 

"3,000 balls more"  as Kallis has played more games but on per inning basis, he has bowled much less  .... also Zaheer being a better bowler has nothing to do with the support or other things that you have written - Zaheer is simply a better bowler on bowling skills and any team would prefer him over Kallis as a strike bowler. 

 

 

 

 

A player stats maybe influenced by other factors but that does not make him automatically better. For e.g. Marshall is a better bowler than Kapil, if Marshall faced the same factors as Kapil did (assuming those influenced him), Marshall would likely outperform Kapil with the ball ....  Not many are going to suggest the lines that Kapil is a better bowler than Marshall because he faced this or that and/or has more wickets than Marshall. A similar case applies for Kapil the AR. If Kapil is ending up with an bowling avg. of 30, he would ideally have liked to have an batting avg that his at least 15-25% higher than his bowling average irrespective of where and how he batted. 

 

You may prefer Kapil and seek to find reasons as to why he did not perform as he should have, but he was mediocre in many of the series esp. as a bowling AR. If not playing for India, his career could have ended earlier. 

 

my conclusions are based on some general  trends in the game which I   believes to be facts based on my several years of  closely following the game.

For instance one of these is that a bowler could have performed much better than he actually did  had he been in the company of a much stronger support bowling unit....like wise many others....let us agree to disagree...I shall stick on with my conclusions.

[zen]

33 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

my conclusions are based on some general  trends in the game which I   believes to be facts based on my several years of  closely following the game.

For instance one of these is that a bowler could have performed much better than he actually did  had he been in the company of a much stronger support bowling unit....like wise many others....let us agree to disagree...I shall stick on with my conclusions.

 

The discussion was on estimating the degree of impact though. 

 

 

[zen]

Another current player:

 

Ben Stokes 

 

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	2013-2020	66	4419	258	38.42	10	156	6/22	31.73	4	74	0	6.68	Profile
filtered	2013-2020	64	4291	258	38.65	10	145	6/22	33.37	4	73	0	5.27

 

 

* Nice record but bowls like 13-14 overs per inning (similar to Kallis, who bowled 12-13 overs per inning) 

[Trichromatic]

No criteria for batting workload means bowling AR like Pollock who weren't specialist bat for SA get into list, while Kallis who was always their bowling option in each and every inning isn't considered.

 

Same for Hadlee, he wouldn't get into teams as batsman. Kallis would get into many teams as 4th or 5th bowling option. He had all the ingredients a specialist bowler has.

 

For all those innings where we have number of balls faced data:

 

115 innings

4611 balls faced

Avg 40 balls per inning

 

Somone like Jason Gillespie - faced 41 balls per inning on average (3810 balls in 98 innings)

 

One can argue about runs scored is what matters, then again 27 and 30 aren't averages of specialist batsmen. Term used here is decent, what is that? Bowling workload matters, but lack of batting workload doesn't count? - Why so many assumptions included? 

 

Random set of criteria?

 

 

 

 

 

[Trichromatic]

Keith Miller bolwed 18 overs per inning in his 95 innings.

 

Kallis bolwed 14 over per inning in his first 95 innings. Overall average 12-13 

 

Philander bowled 16 over per inning.

Morne Morkel bowled 17 overs per inning.

Steyn bowled 20 overs per inning.

 

So, Kallis bolwed 20-30% lesser number of overs than other main pacers of SA. That's what we have seen and this is expected as he was 4th pacer in the team. What's expactation here? He could have qualified as bowler if he had bowled same number of overs likes of Philander, Morkel and Steyn? That's bit too high to expect.

 

Difference is just 20-30% shows that he bowled like specialist 5th bowler, and that's what we have seen him doing also.

 

Akhtar used to bowl 16 overs per inning.

 

Suranga Lakmal bowls 17 overs per inning on avg.

 

Ishant Sharma bowls 17 over per inning.

 

Gillespie bowled 17 overs per inning on avg.

 

Waqar bowled 17.5 over per inning.

 

Willis bolwed 17.5 overs per inning.

What's the cut off to be considered as workload of specialist bowler? Seems there is some number between 14 and 18, probably left to reader's to guess and assumption. And whatever the number is, what's the logic behind that number to chosen as workload of specialist bowler?

 

Moreover comparison of number of overs with Sobers who could bowl spin also? Kallis was a medium fast bowler and not a slow bowler. Apples and oranges comparison? Anyone who watched cricket knows that slower bowlers are capable of pulling off more number of overs per inning on average than pacers.

 

 

[zen]

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

What's the cut off to be considered as workload of specialist bowler? Seems there is some number between 14 and 18, probably left to reader's to guess and assumption. And whatever the number is, what's the logic behind that number to chosen as workload of specialist bowler?

 

• Kapil = 20 overs
• Pollock = 20 overs 
• Botham = 22 overs
• Imran = 23 overs
• Hadlee = 24 overs
• Avg = 22 (19214 overs; 889 innings - I am going to delete the file now as I do not need it anymore so for my reference) 
• Cutoff = 17-18 (=22*0.8), which is right up there with Miller's (18-19), who is a good example of someone who can be said to be equally good with both bat & ball

 

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Moreover comparison of number of overs with Sobers who could bowl spin also? Kallis was a medium fast bowler and not a slow bowler. Apples and oranges comparison? Anyone who watched cricket knows that slower bowlers are capable of pulling off more number of overs per inning on average than pacers.

 

To bowl that many overs, one has to be a relatively good bowler as well. For e.g., Richards, Border, & Jayasuriya bowled spin too but average 8, 7, and 10 respectively. Sobers bowled both medium pace and spin (also mentioned in the OP)

 

 

5 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Random set of criteria?

 

Criteria:

• Decent batting average 
• Bowling workload of/close to a specialist bowler
• Wkts > number of inning bowled (or Wally Hammond, Steve Waugh, etc., can be considered as ARs too rather than batsmen who can bowl) 
• Record excluding BD and Zim 
• Batting avg > bowling avg (unless a special scenario) 

 

While Gillispie may have faced 40 balls, his batting avg < bowling avg

 

 

PS There could be outliers/special scenarios/exceptions, but is anyone substantial left out from the contenders' list (Kallis and Imran are listed on the notable omissions list)? If so, provide the names esp. if they are good enough to make it to the top 3 (unless you believe someone like Brian McMillan, who is not listed, can be in the top 3) .... If not, why worry over minor details, as the saying goes - "aam khao gutli mat gino" 

Edited July 27, 2020 by zen

[zen]

Cricinfo  - Where does Ben Stokes rank among the top allrounders of all time?

 

 

 

[zen]

On the best 45, Sobers and Hadlee are on top of the batting and bowling fronts respectively: 

Edited August 14, 2020 by zen