Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

[King]

fair enough... but think of this.. we both know that we are out of the WC because we arent mentally tough enough, and/or were not in the correct frame of mind... if a coach stops talking to players for 4 days.. well, thats insane, unbelievable.. player not talking to other players, still imaginable.. coach shunning team during a world cup.. wtf... with the the weight of expectations of a billion people, coach playing mental games, shunning the team, u cannot really expect a team to come out tops in a pressure-cooker situation.. ive never heard of a coach shunning the team.. thats like him not doing his job.. wtf was he doing in the windies then...

Replying to one of holysmoke's post and I thought this will make a good topic. Not just mentally tough but there are many factors that are involved in the dismal performance. I agree to certain extent the team environment makes a difference to the performance but that is not everything. Some of these guys have played so much cricket and under so many different coaches they can't give reasons such as "Coach wasn't good so we sucked". Just imagine the number of years of cricket these guys have played and the number of coaches they have encountered. Just because the coach didn't speak to 4-5 senior players the performance was badly affected is it? That doesn't explain the world record score they notched up against Bermuda??? How can the performance be so varied within 2-3 days time? The coach didn't do the job well, we all know that. How about the players? They love to bash Bermuda but can't perform against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka? The same team beat Sri Lanka and West Indies at home. How was the result produced at home very convincingly but not in West Indies? It's a pretty straight forward this one. Our lads are tigers at home and struggle even if there is little movement or bounce in the pitch. Of late this trend has been glaring. Who's to blame for this? The Indian grounds that produce belters for the batters to score in heaps in ODIs? The BCCI establishment that doesn't provide our players to play on pitches that help the bowlers for a change? We all know Ganguly took the groundsman to task in WI after their first game against Bangladesh. Why do you expect the groundsmen prepare the track to suit your batting always? Are the players lacking in technique and temperament that is required to bat on pitches that assist the bowlers? Are they not hard working and take things for granted? I can understand the pressure was huge when they took on Sri Lanka and it is possible a lot of players lost it in their head prior taking strike. How about against Bangladesh? Now none can convince me they had a lot of pressure taking on Bangladesh. From what I know it was a pretty much fore gone conclusion India was going to beat Bangladesh so I don't quite understand when people mention pressure. It is not like they were playing the WC finals against the likes of Australia. It was the first ever game and was being played against Bangladesh. Now if they can't handle this much pressure do they even deserve to play international cricket? The questions are many but answers aren't coming. I haven't heard a single player come out and say our skills aren't the best on pitches that assist bowlers. None of the bowlers have turned up and said we are responsible for not bundling out the opponents despite striking early. Not one player has come out and said we cannot handle pressure and we need help. Now as for coach yes he hasn't put in enough work to train these guys mentally to handle the pressure nor has he trained the players to perform on pitches that suit the bowlers. Clearly that is lack of performance on the part of the coach but should the buck stop there? It is not like India has had glorious history overseas. I'm sick and tired of seeing the batters flop day in day out on pitches that has little extra bounce or seam (add spin too these days). Why the heck don't they work on their skills then? They pretty much know there are issues with their batting but I haven't heard them putting that extra bit at all. I can write pages but I guess I should stop now. I have wanted answers to these questions since long but I know the players will continue to score tons of runs on flat tracks and struggle the minute there is a bit of assistance in the pitch for bowlers. I think unless the players acknowledge these facts and start working hard to overcome this issue no freakin coach can help. We will see plenty of coaches, support staffs come and go but unless the players put in the hard mile nothing is going to change.

[The Outsider]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired Good post, Ravi. Brings me to the same old topic I have been iterating on the forums that no matter what coaching, infrastructure etc. etc. there is no explanation for losing to BD besides the player's responsibility. We had Dravid, Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Zaheer, Agarkar, Harbhajan, Munaf in our ranks. Even if one, mind you just one player had played to his potential we would have been through to the Super 8 and then failure to make the SF could/should have been blamed on the coach or captain. But what our players are giving out in the form of anonymous interviews is, bluntly, BS.

It's a pretty straight forward this one. Our lads are tigers at home and struggle even if there is little movement or bounce in the pitch. Of late this trend has been glaring. Who's to blame for this? The Indian grounds that produce belters for the batters to score in heaps in ODIs?

On this I disagree. Pitches in India are very supportive to seamers on the first day or so for the last season or two. The issue is that these prima donnas have not played domestic cricket for any length of time. I challenge Tendulkar and Ganguly to go out at Mohali and face Gagandeep on a 1st day Mohali track. They are not good enough for it anymore. Bring in guys like Badrinath(whom Dravid was crying hoarse about), Venugopal(whom the world has witnessed for his technique if not performance), Mazumdar(never given a chance) etc. etc. They are going to perform. Mark my word. They have done it on A tours, no reason they cant do it International cricket if given proper chances.

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

On this I disagree. Pitches in India are very supportive to seamers on the first day or so for the last season or two. The issue is that these prima donnas have not played domestic cricket for any length of time. I challenge Tendulkar and Ganguly to go out at Mohali and face Gagandeep on a 1st day Mohali track. They are not good enough for it anymore. Bring in guys like Badrinath(whom Dravid was crying hoarse about)' date=' Venugopal(whom the world has witnessed for his technique if not performance), Mazumdar(never given a chance) etc. etc. They are going to perform. Mark my word. They have done it on A tours, no reason they cant do it International cricket if given proper chances.[/quote'] I am referring to pitches that is made for ODIs not test cricket. Test cricket has seen some sportive pitches in the last few years. That is one reason why we see more bench strength in seamers than spinners at present. As for the ODIs it usually is a belter the pitches (barring the CT last year).

[Lurker]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired Right on Ravi.. :wtg: :wtg: I am with you about the fault lying with the players. Of course those who choose to defend the players read it, generally speaking, as defense of Greg Chappell the coach but thats far from it. Our players well and truly suck, and sucked big time during WC. Thats end of the story. Period. Full Stop. End of conversation. The more I read statements like Sachin's the more I start getting a feeling of how much of a wuss some of these star players are? I mean if GC didnt speak to them they fell like a pack of cards against BD? If GC was not having conversation with SRT the latter lost his technique and miss one right through the gates? Or that Dhoni attempted that stupid shot when he hadnt scored? Who are these players trying to fool here? And why didnt it happen that SRT wore his "Jai Hind" , "Jai Maharastra" shirt on his sleeve and went out trying to prove a point to GC about Indian team's self-respect? Now he cries and tells people of his dedication to India for 17 years!! I wonder how much more respect I shall lose for him? I see some of the posters here asking, "Name 3 batsmen better than SRT in Indian team" or "Who shall replace SRT". Well here is the thing. SRT was considered the best batsman of all times by many. Sure Bradman scored all those runs but he didnt play everywhere and certainly didnt play LOI. SRT's record otherwise is comparable to every one from Viv Richards to Sunny to Border to Pollock you name it. Today even his best fans have to fall on "name 3 batsmen better than him in Indian team" which in turn means that he is not the best batsman in Indian team let alone the world!! How the mighty has fallen!! Sorry to digress but no sympathy for SRT's tears and time for Indian cricketers to own for their mistakes and learn from it. xxxx

[Anakin]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired When one guy loses form, it's his fault, when everyone in the team does, something else is wrong, and except for few ODI series here and there, it's been very shabby for the team. Yes, SRT has lost his old touch and missed a lot of time due to injury, Sehwag, Pathan, Yuvi, Harbi and almost everyone except for RD have lost their form too. Could be a coincidence but may be not.

[gator]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

When one guy loses form' date=' it's his fault, when everyone in the team does, something else is wrong, and except for few ODI series here and there, it's been very shabby for the team. Yes, SRT has lost his old touch and missed a lot of time due to injury, Sehwag, Pathan, Yuvi, Harbi and almost everyone except for RD have lost their form too. Could be a coincidence but may be not.[/quote'] this has been the case more often than not, since the pakistan overseas win of 2004.... different coach, different captain, different conditions..... so what is the same???? PRIMA DONNA USELESS PLAYERS... there u go, simple answer...

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

Earlier, as soon as the Indian team arrived at the Queens Park Oval, skipper Rahul Dravid, Sourav Ganguly and manager Sanjay Jagdale walked up to the pitch and asked the curator why was the wicket damp?

I knwo gnaguly is fair game but here is the exceprt from the article which reported this incident. I see manager and captain too in the list of people who complained over damn pitch.. Just pointing nothigng else.

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired DR we are not making this a personal attack on anyone. I know your penchant for Ganguly but he is not innocent either :hic:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired I have seen post after post going on and on about how ganguly made all other batsmen fail how ganguly was not scoring at 200% strike rate while wickets were tumblign on the other end hence thought it wud be pertinent to point it out...... the great wall dravid didn't find damp pitch amusing either.. BTW I do know he should have continued in bangla match, but problme got coumpounded because five wickets fell within 2 runs which noone wud have imagined.... I also know dravid should have hung around in srilanak match.. can't blame tendulkar he got too good a delivery very early in the inning. Other than being little lazy in the shot making which happens early in the inning he did everythign else right foot planted forward straight bat close to pad ..

[Anakin]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

this has been the case more often than not, since the pakistan overseas win of 2004.... different coach, different captain, different conditions..... so what is the same???? PRIMA DONNA USELESS PLAYERS... there u go, simple answer...

The same core before and during the series in 04

[Chandan]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

I have wanted answers to these questions since long but I know the players will continue to score tons of runs on flat tracks and struggle the minute there is a bit of assistance in the pitch for bowlers.

Ravi, Its true that India has come a cropper on tunhelpful conditions to batters a number of times. But Can you say that the damp pitch at Johannesburg in December last year was helpful to the batters? The damp pitch at Headingley in England in 2002 where we defeated England by an inning was by no means helful to the batsmen! Likewise the underprepared pitch at Jamaica last year where we won the final test was also not helpul to batsmen. So why did we succeed there? Were they fluke?

[Anakin]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired Anyone who's saying indian pitches are all flat tracks should contact Bheembhai :hic:

[gator]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

this has been the case more often than not, since the pakistan overseas win of 2004.... different coach, different captain, different conditions..... so what is the same???? PRIMA DONNA USELESS PLAYERS... there u go, simple answer...

The same core before and during the series in 04

exactly... tht was their expiration date.... wat else did u expect as a WC result? the only bright spot in indian cricket was with a differnet batch of players and Vengsarkar made sure, tht brightness doesnt blind anyone...

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

I have seen post after post going on and on about how ganguly made all other batsmen fail how ganguly was not scoring at 200% strike rate while wickets were tumblign on the other end hence thought it wud be pertinent to point it out...... the great wall dravid didn't find damp pitch amusing either.. BTW I do know he should have continued in bangla match, but problme got coumpounded because five wickets fell within 2 runs which noone wud have imagined.... I also know dravid should have hung around in srilanak match.. can't blame tendulkar he got too good a delivery very early in the inning. Other than being little lazy in the shot making which happens early in the inning he did everythign else right foot planted forward straight bat close to pad ..

Tendulkar got too good a ball??? All it did was seam a little inside. If that is too good a delivery then you haven't watched good deliveries as yet. Tendulkar was also beaten for pace BTW. Nowhere in my posts did I indicate Ganguly was the reason for Indias defeat. In fact I mentioned Ganguly cannot be blamed for the losses. The difference here is you are wanting to pin point Rahul Dravid and exempt the likes of Ganguly and Tendulkar. We are pretty much saying this is not a single player affair but the entire team failed to deliver. In my first post I have not targeted any individual player, you may want to read it again. It was a collective failure of the team whether you like it or not. You could say as much as you like to exonerate Ganguly but he was part of the team that couldn't get to the second round.

Suker Mano was a bewildered man in Queen's Park Oval on Sunday. He had just heard Indian star Sourav Ganguly give him a piece of his mind on the pitch. Rahul Dravid and Sanjay Jagdale had also sauntered in and didn't exactly mouth platitudes. All didn't seem to have good word to say to Mano on his object of affection.

Read the above and see why Ganguly was quoted in my first post. In a situation as above Ganguly was the one that was livid and everyone knows Ganguly's love for pitches and curators.

[yoda]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

I have seen post after post going on and on about how ganguly made all other batsmen fail how ganguly was not scoring at 200% strike rate

Wrong. We are talking about 51 SR against MINNOWDESH. Don't tell me that was good enough for you.

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

Anyone who's saying indian pitches are all flat tracks should contact Bheembhai :hic:

You know am pretty covered when it comes to that, I specifically mentioned ODI tracks for this reason :hic: Surely Bheembhai has proven the tracks are not really flat in test cricket. In ODI cricket it sure is and I know he agrees to it to certain extent.

[Chandan]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired Ravi, Most of the tracks are flat around the world for ODI cricket. I hope you remember a match in SA where 874 runs were scored in 100 overs? You've seen all the tracks in Pakistan? How about the ODI tracks in Australia? How about that Lords tracks where we had chased 325 runs? Whenever SA plays with Australia, they produce flattest of tracks in ODIs, for whatever reason! So how can you blame India here for having flat tracks for ODIs?

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

I have wanted answers to these questions since long but I know the players will continue to score tons of runs on flat tracks and struggle the minute there is a bit of assistance in the pitch for bowlers.

Ravi, Its true that India has come a cropper on tunhelpful conditions to batters a number of times. But Can you say that the damp pitch at Johannesburg in December last year was helpful to the batters? The damp pitch at Headingley in England in 2002 where we defeated England by an inning was by no means helful to the batsmen! Likewise the underprepared pitch at Jamaica last year where we won the final test was also not helpul to batsmen. So why did we succeed there? Were they fluke?

Then a lot of our batters were in their best of form. The Headingley test is one of the best I've seen Indian batters perform. There have been patches when Indian batters have done well on tough pitches but consistency is usually lacking. Even in South Africa our team struggled to bat 50 overs in probably all 5 ODIs. In South Africa too India despite winning one of the test struggled to post decent scores. Anything over 300 is a decent score on tough pitches IMO. "Fluke" would be a strong word to use. I would say the quality and grit saw them through then. Unfortunately this quality is not in evidence for long enough and the grit is absolutely missing these days.

[King]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

Ravi, Most of the tracks are flat around the world for ODI cricket. I hope you remember a match in SA where 874 runs were scored in 100 overs? You've seen all the tracks in Pakistan? How about the ODI tracks in Australia? How about that Lords tracks where we had chased 325 runs? Whenever SA plays with Australia, they produce flattest of tracks in ODIs, for whatever reason! So how can you blame India here for having flat tracks for ODIs?

All you need to do is look at the trend of ODI results and check out the scores. That will tell you the story. I think India have only been able to bat full 50 overs twice or something in the last 19 ODIs overseas I have read. Do you reckon a stats as glaring as that lies?

[Chandan]

Re: Let us pause here for a minute and review what's transpired

I would say the quality and grit saw them through then. Unfortunately this quality is not in evidence for long enough and the grit is absolutely missing these days.

Ravi that Johannesburg victory took was achieved just 3 months back. So what do you mean by "these days"?