Why do our bowlers lose pace all of a sudden

[CG]

The Real Reason is All the fast bowlers mentioned clockled there fastest deliveries playing in australia or southafrica,they have accurate speedguns and proper orientation not to mention good pitches so unless we get high quality broadcasters we will see the same thing, Pak left armer aamer who was clocking 130-135 in srilanka is now clocking 150 in australia and when he comes back he will be clocked at 130 to 135 again by our speedguns.so has he lost pace ? no

[Show_stopper]

How do you explain bouncers read less pace and yorkers read higher pace.

Perhaps they measure the horizontal component of the hand-releaase velocity. Also expl;ains why taller bowlers who look very fast record lesser speeds as opposed to shorter ones. Flintoff is an example of this.

[achilles]

I believe Fred is genuinely fast. His bowling during the Ashes was unbelievable. He almost took Siddle's head off on a 92MPH delivery

[Dhondy]

Going back to the topic... (:wall:) Leaving aside guys like akhtar and Lee who are out and out pacers, how do our fast medium guys compare with similar bowlers from other countries: the Siddles and Andersons of the world. Roughly the same pace Id have thinked. Itd be nice TO have an out and out pacer, to unsettle batsman. Someone who can come in and bowl short quick bursts. Also didnt the BCCI open a National Cricket Academy which can do the role that MRF used to. I dont mind the MRF foundation not being around, it was a private org wasnt it? Used to aid bowlers from any nationality. I remember when Eng were touring a few years ago Simon Jones cam over and spent a few weeks at the MRF foundation to learn how to reverse swing it (he was injured ultimately and did not play at all), that shouldnt be allowed.

There are significant genetic advantages Asian players find difficult to overcome. They have lower bone mass than both Caucasians and Blacks to anchor their muscles. Similarly, South Asians tend to have thinner legs than Caucasians, which is all too important for fast bowlers. You can close the gap by pumping iron etc, but muscle mass beyond a point doesn't help and reduces flexibility. The petite Asian physique is simply not built for a lifetime of fast bowling. It'll break down sooner or later. That's why the entire subcontinent doesn't have an Olympic medal between them at sprints or field events, while some of the poorest African nations do. You can't battle nature.

[Ram]

Yup' date=' the one thing I can't stand is no name posters coming on this website and taking out their frustrations for their own years of underachievement and trying to offload their inferiority complex by scoffing at our bowlers because they don't live up to their fantasy filled expectations.[/quote'] Doc, If some of the 'Indians' find reasons to deride the Indian team when we're number.1, imagine the series of field days they'd have if we actually lose. Personally, I fear the prospect of having to visit these forums if such a day arrives and see all these self-styled doomsday naysayers enjoying themselves here.

[Show_stopper]

I believe Fred is genuinely fast. His bowling during the Ashes was unbelievable. He almost took Siddle's head off on a 92MPH delivery

Yeah my point was taller guys bowl faster than what the speedgun suggests.

[Dhondy]

Sriram, I am all for dissent, but this constant clamour for pace really unsettles me. It completely disregards the physical disadvantage Asian quicks suffer from, outlined in the post above, and somehow suggests we can defeat physiological constraints to become supermen. And when the inevitable happens, toys being thrown out of the pram, lot of breast beating, etc.

[champ]

our bowlers need exposure to the best training methods ,bowling techniques and off course a good track to train and experiment from a very young age .. if these are provided to them at the right age .. they will turn out to be good bowlers .. no doubt .. i believe we have good batting coaches in country and not much bowling coaches .. bcci should address this imbalance ..

[Ram]

Sriram' date=' I am all for dissent, but this constant clamour for pace really unsettles me. It completely disregards the physical disadvantage Asian quicks suffer from, outlined in the post above, and somehow suggests we can defeat physiological constraints to become supermen. And when the inevitable happens, toys being thrown out of the pram, lot of breast beating, etc.[/quote'] True say, something I completely and wholeheartedly agree with. For God's sake, when will people realize that you do not win cricket matches by having a war with the speed gun, but by taking wickets and bowling sides out. And as you had pointed out earlier, one of the standout bowlers of our generation, McGrath, was no express quick. Btw Doc, in another separate thread, I had made a suggestion that our genetic traits could be the reason behind why India has failed to produce express fast bowlers despite having such a huge fan following for so long. Many people rejected the notion, claiming that fast bowling is more about bio mechanics than brawn. Even though I do accept that there's an element of truth in that, I also do feel that our physical traits does limit our ability to produce quicks. Of course, thats not cause for feeling despondent. In the last decade, we have produced enough high quality quicks who have propelled us to world famous wins, both at home and abroad. We should continue to produce such cricketers.

[Sooda]

There are significant genetic advantages Asian players find difficult to overcome. They have lower bone mass than both Caucasians and Blacks to anchor their muscles. Similarly, South Asians tend to have thinner legs than Caucasians, which is all too important for fast bowlers. You can close the gap by pumping iron etc, but muscle mass beyond a point doesn't help and reduces flexibility. The petite Asian physique is simply not built for a lifetime of fast bowling. It'll break down sooner or later. That's why the entire subcontinent doesn't have an Olympic medal between them at sprints or field events, while some of the poorest African nations do. You can't battle nature.

That explains alot. Thanks. So its not as simple as looking at a guy like Munaf and thinking -hes a big lad should be able to crank it up a bit. He was genuine fast medium at least, for all of 3 tests. They just arent able to maintain it due to the physical differences Obvious q: what about Pak pace bowlers- a few of whom (historically anyway) have been genuinely quick and remain so for much of their careers. Same genetic make up as North Indians right? are guys like Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib and even Aamer for that matter just exceptions?

[champ]

That explains alot. Thanks. So its not as simple as looking at a guy like Munaf and thinking -hes a big lad should be able to crank it up a bit. He was genuine fast medium at least, for all of 3 tests. They just arent able to maintain it due to the physical differences Obvious q: what about Pak pace bowlers- a few of whom (historically anyway) have been genuinely quick and remain so for much of their careers. Same genetic make up as North Indians right? are guys like Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib and even Aamer for that matter just exceptions?

u believed that .. its all about training that matters ...

[The Outsider]

My attempt to scratch the surface here - it's very simplistic to come up with ideas, however ill thought they might be, about our fast bowlers losing pace. Many different reasons fit the circumstances right from coach, fitness, and genetics. Fast bowling first and foremost is about rhythm. When a bowler is out there in the middle he does not have any access to speed guns during the action out there. There is no one to tell him at every delivery, "that was 145", "this was 135" as we see on TV and discuss out here. When a bowler is in the right rhythm he'll perform at his optimum best. Right, so the next logical chain of thought is how do you ensure that a bowler is in rhythm for the maximum time out in the middle. Muscle mass and genetics is pure garbage. Kapil Dev bowled 31 overs on the trot in Ahmedabad taking 9/83 - this was at a time when he was razor sharp. Hadlee and Imran Khan were famous for putting in long spells at sustained hostility. Heck, even as recently Ishant bowled 11 most penetrative overs at Perth. That kind of conditioning comes from bowling long spells, not shying away from them for the fear of getting injured. The biggest culprit here is the lack of First Class cricket and the prevalence of ODIs and T20 where the bowler has not time to build himself into a rhythm of sustained bowling. Akram, another master at putting in long sustained spells and not an incredible hulk, has repeatedly stressed it's not the amount of cricket which is the problem, it's the type of cricket. Zaheer Khan bowled his heart out in county cricket for one entire season and came back a bowler in rhythm and confident with what he is doing. How does a bowler ensure he gets long enough spells to get him into a nice rhythm? Surely, no captain is going to keep a bowler on if he is leaking 4-5 runs per over. The only way out is to have pitches which give the bowlers due rewards for their effort. Our bowlers are made to bowl day in and day out on the most brutal shirtfronts seen by humanity. Gillespie, Lee, and Clark finished off their careers prematurely after a trip to India. So much for genetics and all that crap. On the other hand Imran, Kapil, Akram, Waqar, Srinath - all have better averages in their home countries than away. It can be partly attributed to the fact that their batsmen set games up at times, but at least part of the reason is the versatility and adaptability required to bowl on pattas. In my living memory, I can only think of Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, and Gillespie who were able to adapt themselves on Indian roads on a semi consistent basis. And all of them were seasoned pros and amongst the best in the world when they did so. The Ishant delivery which got rid of Ponting at Perth would have been square driven for a boundary behind point in India. If lop sided wickets like the wonderbras in New Zealand where Tuffey looks like a champion bowler are unfair for an honest assessment, the Indian pattas are no less evil. The composition of a bowling attack is crucial - in the subcontinent and many times away India fields two fast bowlers and two spinners. If you happen to field first with that combination, you are always in a quagmire. I would like to see how the likes of Steyn and Johnson can sustain the kind of hostility they do if they are part of a 2-2 attack on pattas match after match. The role of a third seamer cannot be emphasized enough - not only is he there to take wickets after the initial breakthrough, but must form a run clogging option as well if things are not going well. India has had terrible third seamers. When Srinath and Prasad were at their peaks, some trundler would some in and allow the opposition to get away. One of the most poignant memories of a third seamer is Munaf Patel trundling in at 115 kmph in the deciding Cape Town test against South Africa. It naturally puts more pressure on the strike bowlers causing a decline in their abilities. India has a more than decent pace attack and bench strength - Zaheer, Sreesanth, Ishant, Pathan, RP Singh, Munaf - have all shown themselves to be more than capable bowlers at some point in their career. They have outbowled many more illustrious counterparts at various points in their career. With Kumble gone and Harbhajan, being a finger spinner having the natural limitations of a finger spinner no matter how good he might be, there has to be a shift in focus to win matches. India must find a way of producing wickets which have something for the quicker bowlers without resorting to idiocy of leaving grass which dries out in two sessions of a test. Even a bit of up and down bounce is enough to encourage and entice these bowlers, who have been kept in starvation for their entire careers.

[cowboysfan]

very good post shwetabh.I would also add that we need a better rotation policy in regards to our pacers.the way we ground ishant into the dust by picking him for every meaniingless game was so disheartening.there was also no need to pick zak for the tri-series knowing that we had 2 test matches coming up and knowing his injury history.I would actually support a separate pace attack for tests and limited overs cricket.

[Ram]

Agree with almost everything, except this last part;

With Kumble gone and Harbhajan, being a finger spinner having the natural limitations of a finger spinner no matter how good he might be, there has to be a shift in focus to win matches. India must find a way of producing wickets which have something for the quicker bowlers without resorting to idiocy of leaving grass which dries out in two sessions of a test. Even a bit of up and down bounce is enough to encourage and entice these bowlers, who have been kept in starvation for their entire careers.

How can anyone say for sure that preparing seamer-friendly tracks is going to help India produce high quality quicks? That is just an assumption. After all, England is known to have swing/seam friendly conditions, but how many world class fast bowlers have come out of England in the last 20 years? Hardly a handful. There is nothing to suggest that preparing certain type of wickets for domestic cricket will help produce certain class of cricketers. That is just a fallacy. After all, what has changed in our domestic pitches in the last 10-12 years for people like Zaheer, Ishant, Sreesanth, Nehra, RP Singh, Munaf, Praveen, Mithun etc. to emerge? Nothing, the pitches are still as bare as before. Yet, from the days of Prasad, Dodda Ganesh, Johnson, Iqbal Siddiqui, Thiru Kumaran, Paras Mhambrey etc we have made significant progress. Secondly, our biggest weapon at home is spin. No doubts in that whatsoever. I know that, especially in the last few years, the increasing contribution of pacers in home victories may have created an impression that we could get away with jettisoning this tremendous advantage that we have, but spinners have always played an extremely important role in our wins and will continue to do so. Not surprisingly though, playing high quality spin in tracks that assist them does not come naturally to too many teams of the world, which is why so many of them have struggled to overcome us at home. To now make a mid-journey course correction and decide to change the focus to seamer friendly tracks could be prove extremely detrimental to our home record (We all know what happened at Ahmedabad against South Africa). In my opinion, we can continue exploit the traditional weaknesses that away teams have in spin friendly conditions and leverage our strengths of the same, without compromising our ability to produce quality quicks, like we have done in the last 10-12 years.

[Dhondy]

Genetics is garbage? Excellent repartee from you, Shwetabh. I am slightly shellshocked, if I am honest. You are quoting some long spells by a few bowlers to prove your point? Rhythm is great for fast bowlers. Yup, we knew that. That was never in contention though. The discussion was about why our bowlers lose pace? The argument we put forward was that they lose pace because they get injured, and learn not to push themselves to the limit again. And the reason they get injured is because they are physiologically less adapted for fast bowling than other races- lower bone mass, therefore higher risk of stress fractures, and thinner legs, reducing the fulcrum for fast bowling. I didn't mention muscle mass at all, as that gap can be bridged with diet and work ups. I know a bit about this, but if you feel I am bullshyting and invoking racial differences to get my way, well...I blame myself- I have failed to build up my credibility in three years here, not to speak of my medical training and countless hours of reading, which I have never flouted. Sooda, Aamer broke down after just one Test in Oz, trying to push the speed gun. Waqar's career was abbreviated by stress fractures in the back and the second half of his career was no longer at express pace, as many of us who watched him would testify. Wasim cut down on pace and relied on guile and variations. Imran broke down several times through his career despite playing, what 60-odd Tests? The modern pace bowler has to nurture his career through a much longer period than that.

[Dhondy]

I agree with the point made about the workload on two seamers at home though. It's a point we have made several times on this forum.

[The Outsider]

Morriz, I think you missed a part of my post which emphasized that leaving grass on the pitch which dries out in two sessions is not the way to go. While we should not surrender our home advantage of spin, we must also recognize the fact that ordinary spin is no longer a great weapon in world cricket. All teams have become proficient enough to counter run of the mill spin bowling. But at the same time we cannot allow our fast bowlers to be flogged on pattas as part of a 2-2 attack. What I have in mind is more wickets like Chennai produced in '01 and '08 or Calcutta usually produces where fast bowlers are not cannon fodder and yet there is enough for good spin bowlers to work with. Also, the point regarding England is the same with New Zealand and I have touched upon it in my earlier post as well. Blatant swing and seam conditions are going to produce Tuffeys which is also something you don't want to do as much as you don't want to produce Rajesh Chauhans. However, if you keep grinding promising fast bowlers by playing them in ODIs/T20s on pattas be prepared for a drop in quality for they have no motivation to work on the genuine aspects of fast bowling. They might develop 5 different kinds of slower balls and 3 different kinds of cutters like Bracken to succeed in those specific conditions but they will never become genuine wicket taking options in test cricket.

[The Outsider]

Dhondy, I will call it garbage till you can quote more than a handful examples from the "well equipped" races who have bowled at sustained pace and kept themselves any more fit than their subcontinent counterparts. The likes of Lillee and Thompson were spanked all around the subcontinent so much so that they even gave up touring and had all sorts of stress fractures that you are alluding to Imran and Waqar. Mind you, this was in the number of tours you can count on one hand. Gillespie, Lee and Clark - all from the well equipped race - had their careers finished off after touring India. I am not doubting your medical expertise, but merely asking you to substantiate your hypothesis. Don't take it as an offense.

[nballa]

That explains alot. Thanks. So its not as simple as looking at a guy like Munaf and thinking -hes a big lad should be able to crank it up a bit. He was genuine fast medium at least, for all of 3 tests. They just arent able to maintain it due to the physical differences Obvious q: what about Pak pace bowlers- a few of whom (historically anyway) have been genuinely quick and remain so for much of their careers. Same genetic make up as North Indians right? are guys like Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib and even Aamer for that matter just exceptions?

That is a load of BS. how does that explain these bowlers being fast earlier in their careers and like you pointed out the paki bowlers who were the fastest in the world. remember this thread is about losing pace. not being slow to being with.

[Guest BossBhai]

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