Bradman is the greatest, Sachin comes only second: Waugh, Benaud

[thevortex]

Not sure why you think I was indulging in name calling (I've been guilty elsewhere). I thought your post was asinine, not you. Regarding your long winded post, it still doesn't detract from my point. Comparisons across era or across different formats both involve a degree of extrapolation. You're wrong to dismiss one and embrace the other.

If I do not agree with you your post does not become stupid or asinine. That was the point I was making. By the way, yes, I appreciate it that you kept it to the post and not the poster. In any case - it does not matter if my post was long winded or not. What matters is that you are ready to talk about Bradman and ODIs in the same breath. Do you want to find out how many people are ready to do that? Even if you want to go against the flow and stand alone, take a moment to think if it makes any sort of sense - your wanting to talk about ODI performances in the case of a player who did not even know such a form of the game.

[thevortex]

With all due respect to your analysis' date=' when you see the likes of Cairns, Parore, Izaj Ahmed, Ramprakesh, S Malik, etc ahead of Tendulkar, one can say straight away that's not a good way to look at things :winky:[/quote'] That is the problem with depending on numbers and numbers alone to provide a reference point.

[teacup]

MTC, these stats have nothing to do with dismissals. They are taken from Statsguru, by selecting matches featuring a certain bowler. You can then get the averages of all batsmen in matches featuring that bowler, irrespective of who dismissed them. Why don't you try it? Here I have used McGrath, but you can replace him with Donald say, and simply change the opposition to SA. http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2101;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting The stats are also not random, because they obviously set up a rank order in terms of batting averages and therefore allow batsman v batsman comparisons. I pointed out in the other thread that Lara averages better against both McGrath & Donald than Sachin, for example. I can understand your anger because I am unable to portray Sachin a good light, but I am not lying. I really think his record against the best bowlers, particularly quicks, is quite mediocre. You could say the same for Ponting v spinners, but he, Lara, Steve Waugh and Kallis have fared better than Sachin against the pacemen. You can check this out

I beg to disagree with your conclusion. What you need is a player vs player stat (available for individual matches during their live coverages) a feature that is not available in StatsGuru. I am sure the data is there with Cricinfo but for some reason they have not provided the feature in StatsGuru.

[Dhondy]

With all due respect to your analysis' date=' when you see the likes of Cairns, Parore, Izaj Ahmed, Ramprakesh, S Malik, etc ahead of Tendulkar, one can say straight away that's not a good way to look at things :winky:[/quote'] I knew somebody would make that point. My rebuttal to that is that these less heralded players only appear against a certain bowler or two and therefore cannot be used to detract from the argument. However, there are some batsmen I have named above who appear against several bowlers ahead of Sachin, certainly more often than Sachin appears ahead of them, which needs to be acknowledged while debating greatness.

[Dhondy]

I beg to disagree with your conclusion. What you need is a player vs player stat (available for individual matches during their live coverages) a feature that is not available in StatsGuru. I am sure the data is there with Cricinfo but for some reason they have not provided the feature in StatsGuru.

Sure. Player v player would be the ultimate arbiter, and if you go through the "Tendulkar Fatigue Syndrome" thread, you'll see that I've made use of that metric liberally. Predictably, Tendulkar doesn't come out favourably there either, having scored almost no runs against McGrath and very few v Shoaib compared with his peers- the two bowlers I looked at.. As you can expect, I didn't make it to many people's Christmas list after that. I fear that just as the discredited Guardian poll rated Sachin ahead of Bradman because of the sheer volume of Indians that voted, so too are the achievements of Sachin's peers, such as Ponting, Lara, Waugh and Kallis, being literally drowned out by the partisanship of Indian cricket fans, who outnumber the fans of these players manifold. There are many important parameters of batting that tell their own story but people are simply not prepared to listen.

[thevortex]

Dhondy I cannot speak for others, but I think it would be hugely helpful for me if you could come out with what your exact estimation of Tendulkar as a player is. Is he a good batsman? Is he a great batsman? What is he - in your estimation?

[zen]

I knew somebody would make that point. My rebuttal to that is that these less heralded players only appear against a certain bowler or two and therefore cannot be used to detract from the argument. However' date=' there are some batsmen I have named above who appear against several bowlers ahead of Sachin, certainly more often than Sachin appears ahead of them, which needs to be acknowledged while debating greatness.[/quote'] How accurate would be your analysis if the batsman didn't face much of the bowler you selected? Remember you are only selecting matches involving one particular player, it doesn't tell us how many times that bowler bowled to a batsman On the other hand, selecting a 'bowling attack' represents a more accurate picture. In this case, I added S Warne and B Lee to the mix and Tendulkar tops the list! link

Player  	Span  	Mat  	Inns  	NO  	Runs  	HS  	AveDescending  	BF  	SR  	100  	50  	0  	4s  	6s  	
SR Tendulkar (India) 	1992-2008 	24 	46 	6 	2513 	241* 	62.82 	4118 	61.02 	9 	11 	3 	300 	18 	investigate this query
Saeed Anwar (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	0 	886 	145 	59.06 	1629 	54.38 	3 	5 	1 	115 	6 	investigate this query
Saleem Malik (Pak) 	1994-1998 	8 	14 	1 	749 	237 	57.61 	1495 	50.10 	2 	2 	3 	103 	0 	investigate this query
M Azharuddin (India) 	1992-1998 	6 	10 	2 	460 	163* 	57.50 	802 	57.35 	2 	1 	0 	60 	4 	investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	2 	733 	155 	56.38 	1483 	49.42 	4 	1 	1 	99 	3 	investigate this query
V Sehwag (ICC/India) 	2003-2008 	13 	26 	1 	1344 	195 	53.76 	1811 	74.21 	3 	7 	1 	176 	11 	investigate this query
KP Pietersen (Eng) 	2005-2007 	10 	20 	2 	963 	158 	53.50 	1673 	57.56 	2 	6 	1 	99 	16 	investigate this query
VVS Laxman (India) 	1998-2008 	22 	40 	3 	1925 	281 	52.02 	3536 	54.44 	5 	9 	2 	275 	0 	investigate this query
BC Lara (ICC/WI) 	1992-2005 	30 	56 	2 	2798 	277 	51.81 	4536 	61.68 	9 	10 	4 	375 	21 	investigate this query
AP Gurusinha (SL) 	1992-1996 	5 	9 	1 	410 	143 	51.25 	1076 	38.10 	2 	0 	1 	43 	1 	investigate this query
NS Sidhu (India) 	1992-1998 	5 	8 	0 	403 	97 	50.37 	787 	51.20 	0 	4 	1 	53 	7 	investigate this query

[Dhondy]

How accurate would be your analysis if the batsman didn't face much of the bowler you selected? Remember you are only selecting matches involving one particular player, it doesn't tell us how many times that bowler bowled to a batsman On the other hand, selecting a 'bowling attack' represents a more accurate picture. In this case, I added S Warne and B Lee to the mix and Tendulkar tops the list! link

Player  	Span  	Mat  	Inns  	NO  	Runs  	HS  	AveDescending  	BF  	SR  	100  	50  	0  	4s  	6s  	
SR Tendulkar (India) 	1992-2008 	24 	46 	6 	2513 	241* 	62.82 	4118 	61.02 	9 	11 	3 	300 	18 	investigate this query
Saeed Anwar (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	0 	886 	145 	59.06 	1629 	54.38 	3 	5 	1 	115 	6 	investigate this query
Saleem Malik (Pak) 	1994-1998 	8 	14 	1 	749 	237 	57.61 	1495 	50.10 	2 	2 	3 	103 	0 	investigate this query
M Azharuddin (India) 	1992-1998 	6 	10 	2 	460 	163* 	57.50 	802 	57.35 	2 	1 	0 	60 	4 	investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	2 	733 	155 	56.38 	1483 	49.42 	4 	1 	1 	99 	3 	investigate this query
V Sehwag (ICC/India) 	2003-2008 	13 	26 	1 	1344 	195 	53.76 	1811 	74.21 	3 	7 	1 	176 	11 	investigate this query
KP Pietersen (Eng) 	2005-2007 	10 	20 	2 	963 	158 	53.50 	1673 	57.56 	2 	6 	1 	99 	16 	investigate this query
VVS Laxman (India) 	1998-2008 	22 	40 	3 	1925 	281 	52.02 	3536 	54.44 	5 	9 	2 	275 	0 	investigate this query
BC Lara (ICC/WI) 	1992-2005 	30 	56 	2 	2798 	277 	51.81 	4536 	61.68 	9 	10 	4 	375 	21 	investigate this query
AP Gurusinha (SL) 	1992-1996 	5 	9 	1 	410 	143 	51.25 	1076 	38.10 	2 	0 	1 	43 	1 	investigate this query
NS Sidhu (India) 	1992-1998 	5 	8 	0 	403 	97 	50.37 	787 	51.20 	0 	4 	1 	53 	7 	investigate this query

Yes, but that illustrates the point I am trying to make like nothing else could. You will notice that the number of Tests played by Sachin has increased from 9 to 24. So you are not really looking at Tests where Sachin played against all three players, but in fact have included 15 Tests where McGrath didn't feature at all, but one of the other two, probably mostly Lee, did. It illustrates how Sachin's average skyrockets when McGrath is not in the opposition (in fact he averages over 60 when his nemesis wasn't in the Aussie side).

[zen]

Now, I selected an Aus 'bowling attack' which many consider as arguably the best of recent times, i.e McGrath, Gillespie and Warne and not surprisingly Tendulkar tops again!!!! link

Overall figures   Player  	Span  	Mat  	Inns  	NO  	Runs  	HS  	AveDescending  	BF  	SR  	100  	50  	0  	4s  	6s  	
SR Tendulkar (India) 	1992-2004 	17 	31 	4 	1618 	241* 	59.92 	2599 	62.25 	6 	7 	3 	204 	13 	investigate this query
Saeed Anwar (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	0 	886 	145 	59.06 	1629 	54.38 	3 	5 	1 	115 	6 	investigate this query
Saleem Malik (Pak) 	1994-1998 	8 	14 	1 	749 	237 	57.61 	1495 	50.10 	2 	2 	3 	103 	0 	investigate this query
M Azharuddin (India) 	1992-1998 	6 	10 	2 	460 	163* 	57.50 	802 	57.35 	2 	1 	0 	60 	4 	investigate this query
Ijaz Ahmed (Pak) 	1994-1999 	8 	15 	2 	733 	155 	56.38 	1483 	49.42 	4 	1 	1 	99 	3 	investigate this query
VVS Laxman (India) 	1998-2004 	15 	27 	1 	1420 	281 	54.61 	2405 	59.04 	4 	6 	1 	224 	0 	investigate this query
KP Pietersen (Eng) 	2005-2007 	10 	20 	2 	963 	158 	53.50 	1673 	57.56 	2 	6 	1 	99 	16 	investigate this query
BC Lara (ICC/WI) 	1992-2005 	30 	56 	2 	2798 	277 	51.81 	4536 	61.68 	9 	10 	4 	375 	21 	investigate this query
AP Gurusinha (SL) 	1992-1996 	5 	9 	1 	410 	143 	51.25 	1076 	38.10 	2 	0 	1 	43 	1 	investigate this query
NS Sidhu (India) 	1992-1998 	5 	8 	0 	403 	97 	50.37 	787 	51.20 	0 	4 	1 	53 	7 	investigate this query
KR Rutherford (NZ) 	1993-1993 	6 	12 	1 	548 	102 	49.81 	1048 	52.29 	1 	4 	0 	71 	3 	investigate this query
MP Vaughan (Eng) 	2002-2005 	10 	20 	0 	959 	183 	47.95 	1627 	58.94 	4 	1 	3 	121 	9 	investigate this query
R Dravid (ICC/India) 	1996-2005 	18 	33 	4 	1362 	233 	46.96 	3376 	40.34 	2 	7 	3 	158 	4 	investigate this query
GP Thorpe (Eng) 	1993-2001 	16 	31 	4 	1235 	138 	45.74 	2513 	49.14 	3 	8 	2 	148 	0 	investigate this query

[zen]

Yes, but that illustrates the point I am trying to make like nothing else could. You will notice that the number of Tests played by Sachin has increased from 9 to 24. So you are not really looking at Tests where Sachin played against all three players, but in fact have included 15 Tests where McGrath didn't feature at all, but one of the other two, probably mostly Lee, did. It illustrates how Sachin's average skyrockets when McGrath is not in the opposition (in fact he averages over 60 when his nemesis wasn't in the Aussie side).

But what if he played very little of McGrath in those games? Then your point isn't much of a point :winky:

[Dhondy]

You are using the "or" operative. Rett. You need to use "and". Here, I'll do it for you: http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;player_involve=2286;player_involve_type=all;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

[zen]

You are using the "or" operative. Rett. You need to use "and". Here, I'll do it for you: http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;player_involve=2286;player_involve_type=all;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

I didn't see Tendulkar in there! May be we need to have a combination of 2 bowlers (preferably in their home venues). In order to do a proper comparison, it's better to go by the bowling attacks.

[Sachinism]

You are using the "or" operative. Rett. You need to use "and". Here, I'll do it for you: http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;opposition=2;orderby=batting_average;player_involve=2000;player_involve=2101;player_involve=2286;player_involve_type=all;qualmax1=50;qualmin1=5;qualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

Tendulkar doesn't even appear in the list, but Chris Martin does Chris Martin > Tendulkar Thank you for showing me the light

[patriot]

Dhondy I cannot speak for others, but I think it would be hugely helpful for me if you could come out with what your exact estimation of Tendulkar as a player is. Is he a good batsman? Is he a great batsman? What is he - in your estimation?

SRT is a great batsman. But so are many others. SRT is nothing more than: 1) India's 3rd best test bat. ( Behind SG and VS) 2) A batsman with amazing endurance and longevity. 3) India's best ODI player ever. ( That may change once Dhoni hangs his boots) Nothing more. Nothing less. His records are nothing but a function of his longevity in the game. It is funny that any time he plays an " aggressive " knock, his fanboy brigade goes into frenzy about his greatness. Even when that aggressive knock is sedate by standards of the likes of Sehwag or Viv Richards. His fan brigade would turn ICF into a sperm bank if he played even a couple of marathon destructive knocks like Sehwag does at work. This only goes on to show that the the man is a subject of unprecedented hype.

[EnterTheVoid]

I can never understand why some people are hell bent on "proving" Sachin is the greatest. Opinions are subjective. How difficult is that to fathom ?

[Sachinism]

SRT is a great batsman. But so are many others. SRT is nothing more than: 1) India's 3rd best test bat. ( Behind SG and VS) 2) A batsman with amazing endurance and longevity. 3) India's best ODI player ever. ( That may change once Dhoni hangs his boots) Nothing more. Nothing less. His records are nothing but a function of his longevity in the game. It is funny that any time he plays an " aggressive " knock, his fanboy brigade goes into frenzy about his greatness. Even when that aggressive knock is sedate by standards of the likes of Sehwag or Viv Richards. His fan brigade would turn ICF into a sperm bank if he played even a couple of marathon destructive knocks like Sehwag does at work. This only goes on to show that the the man is a subject of unprecedented hype.

You're the fanboy, everyone here that is a big fan of Sachin will always give massive praise to Sehwag. Its just imbecile fanboys like you who are so obsessed with one player spend your whole time deriding the achievements of others.

[Dhondy]

Dhondy I cannot speak for others, but I think it would be hugely helpful for me if you could come out with what your exact estimation of Tendulkar as a player is. Is he a good batsman? Is he a great batsman? What is he - in your estimation?

An excellent batsman- among the top four among his peers, and that's no mean feat. Beautiful to look at, amazing technique and an icon because he started at age 16. The world adores boy wonders, and he was a mere boy hen he started However, I can't see how he can be called better than Lara, Ponting and Waugh unequivocally. I have thought about this, and I have enumerated the points below that will determine Sachin's place among the best at the table. For & against. For 1. Combination of being the most precocious as well the greatest longevity- unique! 2. Handling the expectations of a billion people- none of the others had to do that. 3. Excellent away average, trumping Lara, in particular. 4. Superlative record against Warne, IMO the best spinner ever. Against 1. Poor record against the best pace bowlers- already discussed. 2. Poor second innings performance- he exorcised that ghost somewhat with his hundred v England at Mumbai, but there should have been more. 3. A tendency to falter with the winning post in sight despite being in prime form- Chennai, Sydney hurt the most, but as you know, there were others. 4. Overly defensive in match saving situations, eschewing his natural game, and invariably paying the price e.g. Durban. 5. Failing to stand out and shine and stamp his mark as the prince among batsmen when his genius was needed most by his side- bowler friendly tracks against good pacemen- Barbados and NZ 2002 come to mind. He was just one of the victims. 6. A tendency to falter against the most unheralded of bowlers. 7. Some overlap with previous points, but lack of a career defining innings, like Lara's massive effort at Bridgetown v Australia. Overall, I place Lara ahead of him for his cavalier, beautiful approach to batting, his disregard for reputations. If Sachin dominated Warne, Lara's mastery of Murali with 600+ runs on his losing tour of SL balances out the odds, even wrt to spin bowling. I place Waugh ahead of him because of the former's immense mental strength, and his ability to almost unfailingly come through under pressure when his side needed him the most. I am not still sure of Tendulkar v Ponting. The way Ponting is waning and Sachin waxing, a lot of the damage Ponting did in the last decade may be undone. Forgort to mention Kallis. I reckon he is massively underrated as a batsman because of his image as an allrounder. His technique is even better than Sachin's and if you look at his performances when the rest of the SA side failed, he'd easily leave Sachin in the shade- a proper pressure player. His one glaring shortcoming is the lack of double tons though. He is also the slowest scorer among the five.

[EnterTheVoid]

Patriot, how would your opinion of Sachin change if 1. Sachin was part of a WC winning squad 2. Sachin won us the WC

[patriot]

I stick my neck out and say that either/both of Ponting/Kallis will break SRT's test records. People here mock and abuse Ponting left, right and center. Sure he is a very unpleasant personality and his OTT aggressiveness sucks. But anyone would love such a player in their team. Ponting could easily resign from captaincy to focus purely on his batting like SRT has been doing for donkeys years. That's where I admire Ponting immensely. He want's to build a team after retirement of legends and fight on, rather than just focus on himself. And he is not doing to shabbily. IN all honesty as sheer value to each one's team, SRT is not even a match to Ponting.

[patriot]

You're the fanboy' date=' everyone here that is a big fan of Sachin will always give massive praise to Sehwag. Its just[b'] imbecile fanboys like you who are so obsessed with one player spend your whole time deriding the achievements of others.

See what I mean ? @$$holes such as this guy resort to personal abuse in every second post but moderators gladly choose to ignore it and in turn ban someone who retaliates to such provocation. I hope the mods are looking. I guess you can get away with everything and anything on ICF as long as you do a mala jaap of the most over rated cricketer ever.