Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Sad thing is (and I don't mean to be overly critical) ... that this type of "our way or the high-way" behaviour is spreading into Hinduism. We now try to convert people also--the kar sevaks, that ISKON group and a few others. Out of fear, our folks are also turning into the thing they reject. Hinduism is increasingly becoming Evangelicalism-light. A global fight to the bottom, I think.

agree with you 100%

[Lurker]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Sad thing is (and I don't mean to be overly critical) ... that this type of "our way or the high-way" behaviour is spreading into Hinduism. We now try to convert people also--the kar sevaks, that ISKON group and a few others. Out of fear, our folks are also turning into the thing they reject. Hinduism is increasingly becoming Evangelicalism-light. A global fight to the bottom, I think.

True that. The very people who chastise the "intolerable" acts of Muslims are slowly turning into so themselves. Whether they do it with/without their knowledge is upto them but clearly Hinduism in general has become lot less tolerant, lot more rigid and hostile today. xxx

[King Tendulkar]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. When have hindus forced conversion thorough the sword? Where is that hindus say that anyone who converts away from hinduism should be killed. Big difference to sending the message of hinduism to the world and forcibly converting or killing people who convert away as prescibed by Islam. I would also add that there is hardly much attemt to convert people to hinduism. In fact most hindus believe that you can only be a hindu if you are born one.

[Zooter]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

True we should just shut up and put up with the non sense .... get rid of the nukes the army ..... and when another Mumbai happens ... just count the dead and move on ... If push comes to shove move out of the country ... and if there is no country to move to then convert to Islam ... As some here suggest ... some way to combat terrorism ehhhh ? And lol at comparing ISKCONs conversion to Christian and Ummah's version... hilarious at best ..

Could you be any more jumpy? I'm referring to people OUT OF India. I totally agree with anti-conversion laws WITHIN India. And as I said, ... ISKCON groups and the like are Evangelical-light. But even that is below Hinduism's own standards. How can we tell Baptist Churches to not set up "seed Churchs" all over India if some Krishna group goes around "spreading the Hindu gospel" all over America? If people want to do yoga or whatever on their own or take their own interest in Hinduism or more accurately: the "mysticism of the East" (most Westerners have no idea what the hell they're talking about), then that's fine. But an organized, well-funded religion-army telling people why they're wrong unless they accept Krisha--FUCK THAT! THEY CAN KISS MY ASS. It's not just the conversion-spree. Even the THEOLOGY of Hinduism is changing. Most of these people try to spread the "Trinity" of Hinduims or the "God is One" mumbo-jumbo based on which audience they're talking to. Truth of the matter is: there are no God-numbers in Hinduism ... there is no 3, no 2, no 1, no nothing. God is just God. It's like trying to quantify a location for God ... is he in your heart, or "out" in Heaven? A model unique to Hinduism is the transcendence of God. Location is not important, number(s) of God(s) are not important, whether it is a "jealous" or "content" God--not important. There are all human parameters which don't really apply to that which transcends them all. No Hindu speaks like this anymore. They translate their religion into the language of the West--they're apeing Semitic religions bascially; not just in action, but also theology. And I won't accept it. I repeat: kiss my ass ISKON

[Lurker]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. Hilarious but pertinent Zooter. And I shall join you shamelessly in saying most such Hindu religious party can kiss my booty too. :squee:

[Zooter]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

All fine and Dandy Zoots .... but how do you think you will be able to sustain your way of life if there are no survival instincts built into "Your way of life" .. when facing the brutal ways of the semetic religions ? Turning the other cheek didnt exactly pan out as intended. Remember ?

Actually, I support the two-nation theory. Muslims who want a "Muslims-only country" cannot live (politically) with people who want a state apparatus independent of religious identity. Accepting the existance of Pakistan is NOT turning the other cheek. That's exactly why Advani supported Jinnah's ideology last time he visited Islamabad. Once again, ... if Islamic seminary students or deacons or whatever from some Pat Robertson funded "seed Church" are going around telling people why they're going to Hell unless they convert to the "one true Faith," ... then yes, ... fight that. Set up a "seed Temple" right across the phucking street and pump out more pamphlets, and scream louder than they do. But, do not go to Rome and tell the Italians that Catholicism is "wrong." It's right for them and I'm fine with that. Don't go to the Bible Belt and tell the Alabaman's that Southern Baptism is wrong. Leave them alone. Just defend folks in India. If these Hindu groups really wanted to be Hindu--they outta start a non-denominational pathway where new surnames and access are given to "low caste" people. That "Hindu fatwa" recently by the RSS to have non-Brahmin preachers was a thing of beauty. That's how you defend your religion. No need for ISCON to go to Seattle and tell those pimple-faced morons to start doing yoga.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Sad thing is (and I don't mean to be overly critical) ... that this type of "our way or the high-way" behaviour is spreading into Hinduism. We now try to convert people also--the kar sevaks, that ISKON group and a few others. Out of fear, our folks are also turning into the thing they reject. Hinduism is increasingly becoming Evangelicalism-light. A global fight to the bottom, I think.

Other than mass grih-wapasi ceremony of recently duped poor tribals from christianity to hinduism, even there mind u no sword gets used no finaicial lure is provided, I don't know any other saga. Please let me know if u are privy to definitive evengelism among hindus. I mean to me t sounds like kicking from both side some are accusing of Hindus of not being proactive while spreading the words otoh we have this canard of forced conversion doing the rounds too. So which one it is. As far as I am concerned I don't typecast grih-wapsi to conversion. Yes there are reactive moderately militant prganization like Bajrang Dal VHP shiv sena but even they come of as saint if you compare to the islamist and christians. Well islamist goose is cooked as far as conversion is concerned in india. They might like to believe otherwise but only oconverts they get India these days is through some love-sick marriage saga, some socalled posturing saga but as a whoel conversion in India these days means to the chrastisnity fold. I am not surprised rule of the game has no place for overt sword-wielding hence they are virtually non-existant n conversion market. I know they like to believe that all the indian muslims got peacefully converted after being dazzled by the value system but those claims are just claims. No less than personality like Baba Saheb Ambedkar, messiha of dalits (prime target for converts) had nothing but scorn for islamic practices, sample his words

B. R. Ambedkar: "The Hindus have their social evils. But there is one relieving feature about them - namely that some of them are conscious of their existence and a few of them are actively agitating for their removal. The Muslims, on the other hand, do not realize that they are evils and consequently do not agitate for their removal."

Anyway in nutshell, I would say Hindus do not indulge in conversion game might make some noise against conversion out of Hinduism and even organize grih-wapasi wherever possible but certainly are not proactive evengalist. As some have pointed out producing other cheek has not worked . Infact both cheek have been getting slapped in turnsince ages and it's time now for a section of society to take this mettle of confronting the slappers even if it means that particular section's stance may not be in line with the hindu morals. Even Mahrshi Parshuram had to adopt Ashtra ( weapons) leaving Shahstra (scriptures) behind, against Kshatriya's tyranny. Tolerance is certainly a virtue but when this sentiment fails to trigger self-introspection in attackers and therby reforming their beastly ways then at some stage confrontation must be exercised.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. While I am at it let me renew my question again: Parveen Togadia (presumably one of the most extremist hindu voice) has this to say viz a viz inter-faith reconciliation: "Let us sit together and purge our religious texts from the verses which we may find offensive to each other. [Needless to say all he heard was deafening silence]." Now go ahead find me words expressing similar sentiments from even the most tolerant islamist or christian yada yada. If u can't then well u got the answer, yardstick is different for different religionist to be christened extremist.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. Equating ISCKon to sword-wielder and montaray-inducement throwers:-) Now can u come up with even a solitary example where any of the above two tricks were used anywhere by ISCKON. I will be waiting for the reference. Chrstians and islamists getting prickly over this activism among hindus is understandable because it makes their bait of sword-wielding and money-throwing mode of envegalism less effective but how can oen explain the hindu prickliness over this. I guess ignorance is the only explanation.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Could you be any more jumpy? I'm referring to people OUT OF India. I totally agree with anti-conversion laws WITHIN India.

Apologies for misunderstading

And as I said, ... ISKCON groups and the like are Evangelical-light. But even that is below Hinduism's own standards. How can we tell Baptist Churches to not set up "seed Churchs" all over India if some Krishna group goes around "spreading the Hindu gospel" all over America? If people want to do yoga or whatever on their own or take their own interest in Hinduism or more accurately: the "mysticism of the East" (most Westerners have no idea what the hell they're talking about), then that's fine. But an organized, well-funded religion-army telling people why they're wrong unless they accept Krisha--**** THAT!

Honestly I have never been to any ISCKON for hat matetr to any temple in last 3 years of my stay in Canada. I don't really know what they are preaching but have heard that they do emphasize that either Krishan or noone else just like abarahmic religions. If that's correct then they could not be more wrong. THEY CAN KISS MY ASS.

It's not just the conversion-spree. Even the THEOLOGY of Hinduism is changing. Most of these people try to spread the "Trinity" of Hinduims or the "God is One" mumbo-jumbo based on which audience they're talking to. Truth of the matter is: there are no God-numbers in Hinduism ... there is no 3, no 2, no 1, no nothing. God is just God. It's like trying to quantify a location for God ... is he in your heart, or "out" in Heaven?

If they are putting number and hierarchy well then I would say their understanding is at little lower level but I certainly won't be so dismissive. As Vivekanad said" Child is father of the man. it would be wrong to brand whatever we did as child a mistake because that was part of the larnign curve. Similarly I believe if ISckon guys are teaching these lower level hierachical numbering system in matters of GOD then they are in infancy of thei spiritual upliftment and have rightto be wrong. Well as long as they adhere to the dictum, "U can believe in stone but as long as are not throwing it at someone else." Viveknand goes on to say even aids like God's idol are lower stage of spritualism the enlightened ones do not need even these aids. Once again u can't be dismisisve of those who need these aids. It works for them so be it.

A model unique to Hinduism is the transcendence of God. Location is not important, number(s) of God(s) are not important, whether it is a "jealous" or "content" God--not important. There are all human parameters which don't really apply to that which transcends them all. No Hindu speaks like this anymore.

U got that right. regarding no Hindu speaks like that anymore well I am not so sure about it. You got to solicit better company. Problme is exalted ones like these don't do fanfare advertisement hence live in obscurity that's why we don't know about their existance.

They translate their religion into the language of the West--they're apeing Semitic religions bascially; not just in action, but also theology. And I won't accept it. I repeat: kiss my ass ISKON

You are really pi$$ed with ISCKON hey let us just say their understanding is at lower level and they need to imporve upon that. There is no need of invoking ass kissing. Yes had this lower level understanding resulted in some sort of bodily harm to others then I would have raised red-flag. right now at worst they may be wrong but for sure harmless to the rest.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Actually, I support the two-nation theory. Muslims who want a "Muslims-only country" cannot live (politically) with people who want a state apparatus independent of religious identity. Accepting the existance of Pakistan is NOT turning the other cheek. That's exactly why Advani supported Jinnah's ideology last time he visited Islamabad.

Oke fine by me Muslim lilving in muslim only society. Now let us do some autopsy over this theory. So if I get u correct when muslim reach certain demographic milestone in terms of number they need to go their seperate ways. Actually this is not mere theory but it's the practice without ven a single exception. Only thing varies in this equation is that demographic magic number depending on the stance of the rest of the population it chages. Let us say in a buddhist (presumably most peaceful lot along with Jains) country like Thailand that number is mere 5%, in mostly Hindu India that hovers around 30%, in let say Chrstian Bosnia around 40-50%. Problem is they leave some seed population in the parent country form which they severe. It's well know well documentd that Muslims do breed faster than the rest supported by scriptures which uses metaphor like farmer going to field for procreational sexual act. So it's ceratin that down the line once again the demographic magic number will reach and another call for speratism. In this backdrop how do you explain the rights of existance for the seed population of muslims in a country from which they separated. To me this souonds like perfect parasite-host scenario.

Once again, ... if Islamic seminary students or deacons or whatever from some Pat Robertson funded "seed Church" are going around telling people why they're going to Hell unless they convert to the "one true Faith," ... then yes, ... fight that. Set up a "seed Temple" right across the phucking street and pump out more pamphlets, and scream louder than they do.

So I gather u do think there is a problem and it needs to be countered in some way but really not convinced with the way it's being done at this moment. Oke I need to veer towards some scientific moorings in this regard. I am sure you must have heard the word "diffusion". In scientific parlour this word means movement of particles from higher particle density to lower particle density. In absence of any external force-field this is what happens in a system with concentration gradient. Borrowing this diffusion metaphor; we can say assuming religions drive home the same truth in separate ways of course in absence of state-sanction (unlike islamic countries) means in absence of external force-field is bound give the result akin to statistical diffusion. Meaning flux of converts will be from higher concentration to lower concentration. So if u fight this conversiongame let us say in India, there is bound to be a postive flux of converts towards christianity.It's common sense too because even if same kind of resources are used by both party to chance upon a hindu ta potential convert for chrstian evengalist in ths street is much more than to chance fidning of a chrstian a potential convert for hindu evengalist. OTOH if u play this same game in USA with similar resources chance fiding of potential convert for hindu evengallist goes up so there is bound to be a postiev flux of converts towards hindu fold. So tell me what's wrong in taking the offensive to their turf, why we must play this game encumbered by rules defined by them. I don;t see anythign wrong in fact it's smart way of doing it.

But, do not go to Rome and tell the Italians that Catholicism is "wrong." It's right for them and I'm fine with that. Don't go to the Bible Belt and tell the Alabaman's that Southern Baptism is wrong. Leave them alone. Just defend folks in India.

Why we must be defending all the time. Offence is the best part of defence. For detailed explanation refere back the previous paragraph.

If these Hindu groups really wanted to be Hindu--they outta start a non-denominational pathway where new surnames and access are given to "low caste" people. That "Hindu fatwa" recently by the RSS to have non-Brahmin preachers was a thing of beauty. That's how you defend your religion. No need for ISCON to go to Seattle and tell those pimple-faced morons to start doing yoga.

I would say both can be done at the same time defend your turf and at the same time be offensive at their turf too. They too must get the taste of how it feels being at the receicing end. Why we like a loser should all the time keep defending ourself . Talking fo RSS, you could be damn sure if anything untoward happens in india first organization to land with its free social service is always RSS, whether it's Tsunami or some train-accident mishap, whether it's logistical support at the border in China war or 65 war. No myriad communist or other organization can hold candle to RSS in this regard. Largest Vanvasi kalyan program is run by these folks. Nehru a congenital hater of RSS could not help praising RSS at the end of his China-war fiasco. List is long I won't bore u.

[Predator_05]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. What is an ISKON ?

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

So tell me what's wrong in taking the offensive to their turf, why we must play this game encumbered by rules defined by them.

If you call yourself a hindu, you should be playing by the hindu rules, not 'rules defined by them'. And your diffusion example is perfectly good- i agree with it completely. Except that i'd draw different conclusions from you : With this inter-faith 'diffusion', while hinduism/buddhism managed to impact the islamic faiths in a slightly more positive way ( sufism), we got their fundamentalist 'convert at all costs' mentality diffusing in as well. Hinduism hasn't gone on crusades yet- but the way it is going, it will go on crusades in the future. For hinduism is turning into something malevolent and totally different from what its long and illustrious forefathers conceived it as. Simply because we got too many inferiority-complex-chip-on-the-shoulder 'lets take the fight to them and inorder to beat them, we must behave like them' indians walking around.

They too must get the taste of how it feels being at the receicing end.

This line of your's i think clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding relating to hindu philosophy i think. Don't take it personally,just my opinion. Vengeance or retribution is never the objective of a hindu. A hindu also understands that 'if you behave like the man you are criticising then you are no better and whats worse, you are a hypocrite'. Unfortunately this type of thinking is whats leading to the malevolent mutation into hinduism thats just increasing with time. I suppose at the end of the day,all major faiths and religions will have to go through a period of genocidal spree. Since Hinduism today lacks any deep or intellectual thinkers today and philosophically is at its weakest in history probably, it is being twisted by all these half-learned wannabes with 'tilak-on-forehead-and-stupid-attitude' syndrome. Just like how a bunch of wannabes and illiterate men turned a much mellower and pacifistic message of christ into the monstrosity called Christianity, i guess its the turn of these hinduvtas to turn hinduism on its path to violence. Oh well. Had to happen sometime i guess. But mark my words- Hindus are gonna do a crusade or two in the next 50 years at the rate its falling into the pits of insecurity and indignation fuelled by ignorance of the very philosophies they seek to defend.

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

What is an ISKON ?

Think a Southern Baptist dude fervently converting the masses and spinning stories about the Lord, except he is using all Hindu words and hindu God's names.

[Predator_05]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

What is an ISKON ?

Think a Southern Baptist dude fervently converting the masses and spinning stories about the Lord, except he is using all Hindu words and hindu God's names.

I'd rather not.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

So tell me what's wrong in taking the offensive to their turf' date=' why we must play this game encumbered by rules defined by them.[/quote'] If you call yourself a hindu, you should be playing by the hindu rules, not 'rules defined by them'. And your diffusion example is perfectly good- i agree with it completely. Except that i'd draw different conclusions from you : With this inter-faith 'diffusion', while hinduism/buddhism managed to impact the islamic faiths in a slightly more positive way ( sufism), we got their fundamentalist 'convert at all costs' mentality diffusing in as well. Hinduism hasn't gone on crusades yet- but the way it is going, it will go on crusades in the future. For hinduism is turning into something malevolent and totally different from what its long and illustrious forefathers conceived it as. Simply because we got too many inferiority-complex-chip-on-the-shoulder 'lets take the fight to them and inorder to beat them, we must behave like them' indians walking around.

Well there is enough room for defence and once conflict insues do as it warrants. No ISCKON is giving anyone monetary inducement or killing anyone for conversion. They are doing it in peaceful way and noone should have problme wiht it. I don't think it's against hindu edicts either. There are enough precdences one of Parshuram Rishi i have already cited. Nope it;s not matter of bheaving like them noone does but this crapola of we must not spread religion in their turf even by peaceful mean well that goes without saying as far as hinduims is concerned sounds ridiculous. It will go on crusades because it's preaching its edicts in USA or west in general sounds utterly ridiculous irrational baloney yada yada.. BTW I do not consider myself Hindu it's hard to remain hindu and even verbally criticise the worst of the pri$k hence I much rather not be of the purest form of Hindu. Yes I pick and choose from that super-set for sure but never claimed to be perfect Hindu. As far as my personal religious leanings are concerned, like to put myself in the bracket of one who is confused and is aware of the confusion. Crusade are u kidding me I just gave u the views of the socalled greatets extremist among Hindus Togadia and even he comes of as saint of tolerance if u juxatapose him even against the most liberals from the rest of the religions. Hindus know the larger truth this recent adventurism has borne out of necessity of basic survival instinct and it still doesn't go beyond idelogical offensive unlilke abrahamic religions. Even after thousand years of suppression they still were willing to forgive and forget and coexist but it seems other side not only has been consistently refusing to learn but in fact taking this tolerance as sign of weakness [Words of leaders like Suharwardi during partition days saying bengali hiindus ko to ak kitchen knife dikhao wo dining table ke niche chhup jayenge] meant nothing but complete scorn for the tolerance of those folks. Audacity of Jinnah to call for Kokatta (overwhelimingly hindu majrotity city) band in support of demand for Pakistan said we don't care we will flaunt it in ur face. There is limit to everything else at some stage even everestesque tolerance had to crumble. Even today only the fringe elments have said enough is enough, mainstream is still snoozing wishing somehow things will get better. Don't be fooled by Hinduims somehow impacting islam in form of sufism. Sufismis confined to the insignificantly miniscule percentage among muslims who are looked donw upon as someone who indulges in Fitnah. Till recently I am sure it must be in place even now sufism was banned in holy-land of saudi arabia. Anyway my point is those who swear by a book saying that it's replice of the book in heaven have this tendency to go back to the barbaric medieval time. No amound of positive influence can reform them, they will go to the barbaric basic time and again no wonder Sufism is virtually non-existant. PS: I have no problem whatsoever with sufism philosphy. Alas chief clowns like Zaakir Naik Israar Ahmed who are the virtual pide-pipers of ummah's thinking put sufis in the bracket of shirk hence biggest sinner and hence irrelevant.

[yoda]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

What is an ISKON ?

ISKCON spelt incorrectly. :shrug:

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. Ideological offensive have been there since ages. Mandan Mishra got his behind handed to him by shankaracharya thousands of years ago. If whatever other spout had to be taken as it was there was hardly any need of that debate. And I think those who are going all over town with crusade crapola when all ISCKOn is doing is preaching ( Without the lowly means of monetary lures or sword wielding), their pontification reeks of psec leftist baiters of abrahmic faith. Their masters evengalical project is getting harder and harder due to this sudden spurt in idelogical activism on part of hindus hence this call of wolf-wolf. I have said it million times will say it again. If u want u can pick the worst of the extremist among hindus and go ahead compare him with even the best of the arbhamic evengelist I will assure you he/she will come better of on balance of tolerance. I know u would like hindus to be totally inactive indifferent hence an easy prey to ur masters' lures well it's not happening anymore. Long this activism may continue

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc.. I know all is not good but u know I am trying really really hard to like these guys ( well they are not helping my cause ) so thought will overlook few things. :lmao: :lmao:

[CC1981]

Re: Saudi Fatwa: Shiites are Infidels and Worse Than Jews, etc..

Reality is that our fore fathers never prescribed those ultra soft bend over backwards attitude that is being spouted left right and center these day

Reality is that our forefather's views on hinduism is far and away different than your so-called ideas on hinduism. This is evident from reading the hindu texts rather than reading second hand propaganda. Hinduism never subscribes to pre-emptive strikes and crusades like you do.