King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc How can you justify this? Arrey baba i am not justifying this - i am saying that having a confrontational attitude towards debating them is not gonna help either !!!! It is obvious that in a faith as draconian as Islam,where rejection of it is meted by death ( ideally speaking!), cannot be reformed by we seeking to debate them in a confrontational attitude. Just like how all those christian missionaries denigrating hinduism by using caste system and what not don't really help the problem of caste system. When you go in all guns blazing, its war. War is not about right or wrong, the point of war is to win. In a 'must win' atmosphere created by mutual hostile intent, ego takes over and nobody is gonna get their points through. Only way would be to make genuine friends amongst them and then have dialogues with them over it. Me and my buddy have been over it for over 7 years (though not much for the last 2 years or so) and while he is still a muslim, he considers himself different enough to not go to mosques and associate with the ummah. Sorry, i dont want this to sound sanctimonious- but i just don't see the point of having a quarrelsome attitude - how many times have you seen your parents fight as a kid and how often right in the middle of the fight did your mother or father say 'okay okay fine. i bolloxed up. my fault. i am sorry' ?? Its either never happened or so rare that you can count it on one hand. But the dispute is always resolved AFTER the fight, isnt it ? when mom and dad get talking ? Similar situation applies here. The kind of attacks some people engage against muslims here, propose the kind of solutions they propose,( some posters think that all indian muslims should be kicked out of india!) etc. would cause one to just stay the hell away and secretly despise these characters. A lot similar to some fundie right wing white superiorist party leader talking against colored people in hateful terms. Would you, as a brown man, try to engage this person for legitimate debate ? I don't think so! Hope i've given enough examples. Anyways, its time for me to hit the sack. gnite. When have I said confrontational? I keep saying in a polite but factual manner. If you go to pak and discuss islam in polite factual manner, pointing out a few strenghts and a few weakness. What will happen? You will be lynched or arrested. Thus communication is clearly not possible with muslims and thus no progress can be made, both on individual and state level. As there whole way of thinking and acting is dictated by their religion which leaves ZERO flexibility or compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc When have I said confrontational? I keep saying in a polite but factual manner. If you go to pak and discuss islam in polite factual manner' date= pointing out a few strenghts and a few weakness. What will happen? You will be lynched or arrested. Thus communication is clearly not possible with muslims and thus no progress can be made, both on individual and state level. As there whole way of thinking and acting is dictated by their religion which leaves ZERO flexibility or compromise. And how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion dsr? Have you been to Pakistan? Did you face it first hand? Did you try saying exactly what you mentioned up above and did you get lynched or stoned? A simple Yes or No would suffice. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Its against islamic law to criticise islam or any of its prophets. It is death if you do. Why don't you go to pak and criticise islam. I want to live thank you very much and do not want to be arrested and then executed. In saudi arabi you are not allowed to celebrate christmas. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW If you relinquish you are guilty of apostay and should be killed according to Islam, like the man in malaysia who is to be convicted for converting to Islam(apostay). What do you think of these islamic laws LURKER? Agree with them? Sound peaceful and just? Apostasy (Irtidad), as commonly understood, is abandoning Islam by converting to some other religion. It is just not a theoretical or academic issue; such incidents have happened in the past and continue to happen in our own time. While conversion from other religions to Islam is almost sacred and welcomed by Muslims, abandoning Islam is deplored and many believe is punishable by death. Consequently, a person who is born a Muslim is doomed to remain a Muslim. The most recent case of apostasy is that of Abdul Rahman, an Afghan by nationality, who has relinquished faith in Islam and has embraced Christianity. This inflamed the passions of the orthodox Muslims in Afghanistan so much that they invoked application of apostasy law against him and demanded him to be punished accordingly. According to BBC, Kabul, March 25, 2006, ?Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan?s constitution is based, Mr. Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam. The Prophet Muhammed has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back, says Ansarullah Mawalfizada, the trial judge. Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him.? Islam may be a religion of peace in its literal sense but its application in the Muslim world is anything but peaceful. Provision of death sentence for apostasy is not sanctioned by Quran; a recourse is usually made to Hadiths by the hard-core orthodox and unforgiving fanatics to invoke death for apostasy. There is, as a matter of fact, no occasion for begging apology and forgiveness in such cases because they are wholly the individuals? own choice; the clergy and the ulema shouldn?t have any right to impose their will on an individual who chooses to abandon Islam for his own reasons. He doesn?t have to explain his apostasy to any body; it should be nobody else?s business. The most oft-quoted and well-known verse of Quran applicable to such a situation is 2:256. According to this verse, ?Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Its against islamic law to criticise islam or any of its prophets. It is death if you do. Why don't you go to pak and criticise islam. I want to live thank you very much and do not want to be arrested and then executed. Ahhh the spin doctors at work again. DSR, why dont you admit that you havent been to Pakistan and hence have no idea what you are talking about. Would save us both some time. So Sir do you have first hand experience of what you are saying? Or is it all heresay? Hopefully this time you can answer in Yes or No. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc I am begining to get the feeling that Muslim posters are just scared to debate you both . Not scared- they are probably disgusted with all the hatred. The tone adopted by d_r and bheembhai are confrontational and anger-ridden instead of understanding and teacher-like. Put yourself in the position of a muslim and imagine how you'd react/feel to the way D_R and bheembhai preach. Its may be that what they speak of is meritorious but the tone adopted would instantly negate the purpose of a discourse in the first place. Nobody gets converted or convinced by people who treat you like an enemy. Regardless of what interpretations and 'history' these gents come up with, the average muslim would turn around and either ignore them or worse, feel the hatred, meet hatred with hatred and look for reasons to channel that angst in destructive means. Its precisely the reason we find christian protestant missionaries to be annoying, in your face and retarded. Only thing is, these gents don't realize that they probably come off the same to the audience they are 'trying to reform'. I am willing to bet that these gents realize this, which is why this behaviour of their's probably does not spill over to their real lives. IMO, DR's style of debating is Either his way or the highway. Anger management would be good recourse for him. :hic: :hic: Just kidding DR . Don't go postal. But, seriously I don't think DR is a hate mongerer. His intention is to highlight the shortcomings of Islam. My only problem with him is his views are too one sided and jaundiced. Bheembhai is NOT confrontational at all in my opinion. In fact , I don't mind having a debate with him . If muslim posters have a problem with his view, let them post their rebutals. Also, in the interest of fairness , I feel muslim posters should also post criticism aimed to shortcomings of Hinduism and I know that the MODS will definitively allow them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Its against islamic law to criticise islam or any of its prophets. It is death if you do. Why don't you go to pak and criticise islam. I want to live thank you very much and do not want to be arrested and then executed. Ahhh the spin doctors at work again. DSR, why dont you admit that you havent been to Pakistan and hence have no idea what you are talking about. Would save us both some time. So Sir do you have first hand experience of what you are saying? Or is it all heresay? Hopefully this time you can answer in Yes or No. xxx Lurker , I would like to add one thing. I was following PP msg board and I found it surprising that very few posters had a problem with apostasy. Also, I found it even more surprising that they tried to dodge issue of Afghan convert and were more interested in the mental state of the Afghan. I hope I am wrong in my assessment , but that's the feeling I got and these are supposed to be educated moderates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Its against islamic law to criticise islam or any of its prophets. It is death if you do. Why don't you go to pak and criticise islam. I want to live thank you very much and do not want to be arrested and then executed. Ahhh the spin doctors at work again. DSR, why dont you admit that you havent been to Pakistan and hence have no idea what you are talking about. Would save us both some time. So Sir do you have first hand experience of what you are saying? Or is it all heresay? Hopefully this time you can answer in Yes or No. xxx No i have not been to pakistan. AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER GOING THERE! Howver one does not need to go to a country to know its laws. I do know if I went to pakistan and criticised Islam I would be arrestd and convicted. Just like I do not need to go to the USA to know that if I murdered 100 people that i would be arrested and executed. Or are you going to tell me that this is hearsay as well as i have not been to USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc What is your opinion of Apostacy in Islam Lurker? Do you agree with it Yes or NO? Further does the law of apostacy exist in pakistan or S Arabia? Yes or no please Lurker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc No i have not been to pakistan. AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF EVER GOING THERE! Howver one does not need to go to a country to know its laws. I do know if I went to pakistan and criticised Islam I would be arrestd and convicted. Then you are wrong dsr. Wrong simply because you are saying, and thinking, only what you want to hear. Before India went to Pakistan(Goodwill series) there was this impression in some Indians that Pakistanis were these blood thirsty lot. And what happened later? A sit down and front page to end read of Pundits to Pakistan will do you some good. I personally would love to go to Pakistan and see things first hand. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc I also think a lot of debates here just concentrate on pointing out shortcomings in a certain religion (I agree the short comings are glaring). The practices of the said religion are horrific and voilent. That said KR raises an interesting question why don't people debate West's hand in helping these radicals in the first place. Why doesn't anyone open a thread about the support Bin Laden, Saddam, Talibans and the rest received? I'm sure there are so many instances of West siding with thugs in the past but I've never see one single thread dedicated to that one. Don't we need a balanced view on all episodes from all parties here and not just concentrate on Islam? Pakistan that shields a lot of terrorists is a political ally of US of A. Then why do anyone bother pay taxes to a country that simply rolls out heaps of funds to the country that shelters terrorists? Middle East is one of the recepient of huge funds from US of A still. Why are we blind folded about anything that US of A does but are more than happy to point out evils in a religion? Shouldn't we be pointing out issues on a regular basis caused by both sides? I would certainly like to hear a balanced views on both the culprits. One does it daringly for religous causes and the other for political and selfish causes. Both are terrible in their own rights. Thank Ravi. This is exactly my sentiment and I get accused by DR of trying to play the UN here. This one sided criticism of Islam will not serve any purpose in my opinion. How will Hindus feel if Muslims start posting thread after thread condemning rat temple , our elephant god , caste system , sati , dowry etc. For me , Ganesh may be very scared , for them it's a joke that we pray to elephant or monkey. I hope posters like DR , DSR realize that it is very easy to criticize Hinduism just like Islam. I feel that Social democracy like Norway , Denmark .,Canada etc with a predominant christian majority provide the best security for both men and women and encourage separation of Church and State. That's the way to go. But , I personally would not want Islam to flourish because they believe in opposite which is, religion is the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc What is your opinion of Apostacy in Islam Lurker? Do you agree with it Yes or NO? Further does the law of apostacy exist in pakistan or S Arabia? Yes or no please Lurker I am against Apostacy. Does it exist in Pakistan or S Arabia. Yes. And your point is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Rubbish, it is all PR bullshit. One minute they are smiling and welcoming. Next they are sending over jehad killers to kill my fellow indians. Just like before Kargil. All smiles and handshakes while they were planning a WAR! Lurker why don't you go to pak and point out a few deficiencies in Islam. You wil be in jail quicker then it would take you to say Allah Akbar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc What is your opinion of Apostacy in Islam Lurker? Do you agree with it Yes or NO? Further does the law of apostacy exist in pakistan or S Arabia? Yes or no please Lurker I am against Apostacy. Does it exist in Pakistan or S Arabia. Yes. And your point is? My point is to point out the intolerance and cruelty of islam. And how muslim countries follow these cruel laws of islam. Yet no doubt some will leap to their defence. Its the year 2007 for gods sake while muslim countries and muslims act like its 1007! Also the point is how muslims bleat on about how badly they are treated in world. When in fact they are the most cruellest of the lot to Kaffars. HYPOCRICY OF THE HIGHEST ORDER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Thank Ravi. This is exactly my sentiment and I get accused by DR of trying to play the UN here. This one sided criticism of Islam will not serve any purpose in my opinion. How will Hindus feel if Muslims start posting thread after thread condemning rat temple , our elephant god , caste system , sati , dowry etc. For me , Ganesh may be very scared , for them it's a joke that we pray to elephant or monkey. I hope posters like DR , DSR realize that it is very easy to criticize Hinduism just like Islam. Worshipping rats etc does not harm anyone. If someone wishes to worship a snail so be it. As long as it does not harm anyone. Sati and caste system are wrong. And are against the law in India. Apostay and islamic laws are entrenched in islamic states laws, thats the differnce and are followewd to the letter by muslims and their leaders. Muslims kill people in the name of their religion all over the world. Major difference. Christians, jews, hindus, sikhs, athesits are all getting killed by muslims in their various crusades. These are the facts deal with them and stop burying your head in the sand. Next you will be telling me islam is a religion of peace :shrug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Rubbish, it is all PR bullshit. One minute they are smiling and welcoming. Next they are sending over jehad killers to kill my fellow indians. Just like before Kargil. All smiles and handshakes while they were planning a WAR! Lurker why don't you go to pak and point out a few deficiencies in Islam. You wil be in jail quicker then it would take you to say Allah Akbar! That is your version of Pakistan and good luck with that hatred brewing inside your heart. My experience of Pakistan, and Pakistanis, are on the contrary and so shall it remain, try hard as hatemongers like you may try. So dsr have you read Pundits from Pakistan? You suggest it was all PR but have you actually sat down and read it? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc My point is to point out the intolerance and cruelty of islam. And how muslim countries follow these cruel laws of islam. Yet no doubt some will leap to their defence. Its the year 2007 for gods sake while muslim countries and muslims act like its 1007! Also the point is how muslims bleat on about how badly they are treated in world. When in fact they are the most cruellest of the lot to Kaffars. HYPOCRICY OF THE HIGHEST ORDER! Here is the deal - you want to "improve" Islam or Muslim countries? Well make it your life's goal and settle in Pakistan(or Saudi Arabia or wherever). What is the point of going bellicose on a website(an Indian website at that) and digging up dirt on Islam ad-nauseum boss? This does nothing for Islam and craps the environment on message board. Period! xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Did i make kargil war up and the peace meeting with pak while they were planning a war? Did i make up the bombings from jehadis, mumbai and many more spring to mind? Did i make up 40% of muslims in UK wanting sharia? Did I make up 33% of muslims in UK have sympathy with jehad bomberrs of London? So who are the hate mongers? me or the ones going out killing or supporting/sympathising with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Thank Ravi. This is exactly my sentiment and I get accused by DR of trying to play the UN here. This one sided criticism of Islam will not serve any purpose in my opinion. How will Hindus feel if Muslims start posting thread after thread condemning rat temple , our elephant god , caste system , sati , dowry etc. For me , Ganesh may be very scared , for them it's a joke that we pray to elephant or monkey. I hope posters like DR , DSR realize that it is very easy to criticize Hinduism just like Islam. Worshipping rats etc does not harm anyone. If someone wishes to worship a snail so be it. As long as it does not harm anyone. Sati and caste system are wrong. And are against the law in India. Apostay and islamic laws are entrenched in islamic states laws, thats the differnce and are followewd to the letter by muslims and their leaders. Muslims kill people in the name of their religion all over the world. Major difference. Christians, jews, hindus, sikhs, athesits are all getting killed by muslims in their various crusades. These are the facts deal with them and stop burying your head in the sand. Next you will be telling me islam is a religion of peace :shrug: Did you even ask my opinion about Apostasy . In fact , just go and read my post to Lurker which is in the same page. Do you want DEFINITIVE ANSWERS . Ask me and I will clearly give my DEFINITIVE ANSWERS . In fact it's the other way around here. I never said Islam is a religion of peace or otherwise . All I have stated so far is more than 1 billion follow the prophet and they are must be something right about his teachings. I have no problems if you , DR , Bheem etc criticize Islam. But for Pete's sake, have some consistency and post ills of our religion also. This one sided criticism is not debate but sounds more like a broken record . In fact , in many ways you sound like those radicals whom you criticize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Well its not just me or indians. The whole world is disillusioned with islam and struggling to comprehend how a bunch of people can be so extremene and fundamental and violent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Re: Radical Islam - Must see for DR, Bheem etc Did i make kargil war up and the peace meeting with pak while they were planning a war? Did i make up the bombings from jehadis, mumbai and many more spring to mind? Did i make up 40% of muslims in UK wanting sharia? Did I make up 33% of muslims in UK have sympathy with jehad bomberrs of London? So who are the hate mongers? me or the ones going out killing or supporting/sympathising with them? I would not want to be caught up in these petty Muslim-wanting-Sharia-in-UK discussion dsr. I have said again, and I shall repeat it once more. If you are so interested in "changing" Islam start by going to a Muslim country or Muslim website. Whats the whole point of doing that thing here day in and day out? Its a futile exercise no? xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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