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Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it


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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=42557 Water issues in South Asia By Imtiaz Alam(The writer is editor current affairs, The News, and editor South Asian Journal) Prof Raymond Lafitte, the neutral water expert appointed by the World Bank to resolve the differences between Pakistan and India over Baglihar dam, has reportedly disagreed with the conflicting contentions of the two sides. Rejecting Islamabad's demand that there should not be any gate on the spillway on the site, he has also asked New Delhi to reduce the height of the dam and construct a parapet around it by redesigning the dam. There are other serious technical objections to the design that substantially raise the cost of the dam and make it almost unviable. The issues of cross-border water distribution, utilisation, management and mega irrigation/hydro electric power projects are gradually taking the centre stage in defining the interstate relations as water scarcity increases and both drought and floods make life too often miserable. Thanks to its location, size and contiguous borders with other South Asian countries, this is incidentally India, both in its capacity of upper and lower riparian, that has come into conflict with most of its neighbours, except Bhutan, on the cross-border water issues. Given the atmosphere of mistrust, upper riparian India has serious issues to resolve with lower riparian Pakistan and Bangladesh and with upper riparian Nepal. This, however, doesn't mean that India is solely responsible for certain deadlocks, even though its share of responsibility may be larger than other countries which have their own physical limitations and political apprehensions. In the subcontinent, as elsewhere in the world, where the population explosion continues and environmental degradation worsens, water resources, like energy, are going to be much lower than the increasing demand, even if they are harnessed to the optimum. Given the depleting resources of water, the issues of food and water security are going to assume astronomical proportion. It is appreciable that countries of the subcontinent have made certain remarkable efforts to resolve their differences over water distribution through bilateral agreements. India and Pakistan signed the Indus Water Treaty (IWT) in 1960 allocating three eastern rivers (Ravi, Sutlej and Beas) to India and three western rivers (Indus, Jehlum, Chenab) to Pakistan. The IWT has remarkably survived the ups and downs of Indo-Pak relations, and despite wars the parties have upheld it, although serious differences persist over various projects being undertaken by India over two proposed dams on Jehlum and nine dams on Chenab. Similarly, the Ganges Water-Sharing Treaty (GWST) was signed between India and Bangladesh in 1996 that resolved the dispute over Farakha Barrage, although differences continue on Bangladesh's share of water during the lean period. Nepal and India also signed the Mahakali Treaty in 1996, but despite ratification by the Nepalese parliament, the treaty has not been implemented. But serious differences continue to spoil relations among these countries. Differences between India and Pakistan continue to create ill-will between the two on around 11 large hydroelectric projects India plans to construct, including the Baglihar project, over which Pakistan sought the appointment of a neutral expert by the World Bank after the failure of talks. More than the dispute over Jammu and Kashmir, the issue of the waters of Jehlum and Chenab has the potential to once again provoke people in Pakistan against India and push the two countries to war. Quite paradoxically, the Kashmiris increasingly demand utilisation of their waters for energy and irrigation beyond the scope of IWT. Dr Mubashar Hassan had given a sound proposal to resolve the dispute over Baglihar by proposing to install telemeters on it to monitor daily release of water in order to ensure due supply of water from Baglihar dam to Pakistan. Bangladesh, which shares 54 rivers with India as a lower riparian, has serious differences with New Delhi that hinder agreement on eight rivers, besides the continuing complaints by Dhaka over sharing of the water of Ganges during the lean period. The Indian plan, which is now shelved, to build a big river-linking-project that includes diversion of water from Ganges and Brahmaputra, had become yet another source of antagonism between the two countries who have not been able to sort out their differences over a whole range of issues that continue to fuel political tension which, in turn, does not allow the resolution of differences over water. As an upper riparian, Nepal has different relationship with India and faces many problems in constructing its dams. Nepal's mistrust has been reinforced by what it perceives to be various unequal treaties, starting from the Sharada Dam construction (1927), The Treaty and Letters of Exchange of 1950 and 1965, Koshi Agreement (1954), Gandak Agreement ((1959), Tanakpur Agreement (1991) and the Mahakali Treaty (1996). Since 400 million people live in the Ganges, Brahmaputra and Meghna region, India needs Nepal to meet its energy needs and for management of water. Without removing Nepal's apprehensions, India will not be able to benefit from the water resources and potential sites for dams in Nepal. As if the woes of subcontinent were not enough, China being the real upper riparian plans to divert the waters that flow from Tibet into the subcontinent. There are other huge water- and energy-related issues critically affecting food security, environment and agriculture. There exist serious differences over water sharing within different states/provinces in India (Ravi-Beas dispute between Punjab and Haryana-Cauvery dispute among the sates of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Pondicherry) and Pakistan (water-sharing dispute and dispute over construction of dams over Indus between Punjab and Sindh and also NWFP). Rigorous exploitation of groundwater in India and Pakistan is rapidly depleting aquifers. Contamination of water and presence of arsenic in groundwater has become a major concern, especially in Bangladesh, and some parts of India and Pakistan. Climatic changes and low-water discharges need to be addressed collectively. A new regional understanding of the riparian issues is essential to resolve Indo-Nepal, Indo-Bangladesh and Indo-Pakistan water issues. The findings of the neutral expert on Bagliahar dam must be accepted by India and Pakistan to keep the sanctity of the IWT. The regional riparian statutes must be obligatory to resolve the bilateral water disputes. The regional riparian rights statutes model, respecting the Helsinki Convention proposes 8K upstream and downstream rights should guide the countries of the subcontinent to avoid conflict over water and reach a lasting understanding for the collective good of our people. The 'middle-path' adopted by Bhutan should guide the planners for sustainable development that is environment-friendly and is not carried by the supply-side approach of the big bomb lobbies. There is great resistance by the indigenous people to big dams. There are alternative strategies that propose small dams, instead of big dams. The need is to conserve and tap resources in a sustainable manner. Water resources, instead of becoming a cause of conflict, should be harnessed by provinces, states and countries. Be they water disputes among states or within states they need to be tackled with utmost care before they explode into ethno-regional issues that have the dangerous potential to bring various peoples into conflict across and within national borders. Email: imtiazalampak@yahoo.com

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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it what will happen if state govt of J&K scrap the IWT( indus water treaty )..? as these 6 rivers originate in J&K...so the people of Kashmir have the first right to use it the way they would want to.. what are the international laws in water sharing of rivers between two countries.? i feel as both countries make good strides towards better economy...the energy and water will be two precious things. was the IWT another chutiyapanti by Nehru? why do we need to show big brotherly attitude towards pakistan on such issues.? after all all the good and bad things which are within our borders belong to us...why should we be compelled to share our things with other countries? well...things which are in excess can be considered to be shared with our neighbors..but we should never have any such IWT with pakistan or BD..when all they do is to misuse our magnanimity we should scrap the IWT..and should make many dams...for power generation and also for blackmailing in case of a misadventure by pakistan in future.

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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

what will happen if state govt of J&K scrap the IWT( indus water treaty )..?
Nuclear war and for once we could'nt blame Pakistan. I'd think its a reasonable response for cutting off a country's water supply.
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

what will happen if state govt of J&K scrap the IWT( indus water treaty )..?
Nuclear war and for once we could'nt blame Pakistan. I'd think its a reasonable response for cutting off a country's water supply.
what if the middle east decides to cut off oil supply to the US?
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

what if the middle east decides to cut off oil supply to the US?
They can't otherwise they'd be screwed themselves. Already tried that in the 70s, it hurt them till the 90s (when the price of crude came back to the pre-OPEC crisis days). Oil and gas, as important as it is, isn't gonna cause people to start dying due to the lack of it in matter of weeks. OPEC oil crisis proved that. A Water crisis for a nation lasting weeks is going to be a huge human tragedy. Plus, the infrastructure for international trade and transportation of oil in massive quantities are already in place. There is no such infrastructure for water transportation on that scale internationally. So, even if you are a small third world nation without much oil reserves, you can get oil from someone else if the middle east cuts you out. For water, the situation Pakistan or say Cambodia are in ( does not control the watershed of its major rivers and no significant secondary freshwater source) if the nations upstream from them screws them over, they'r quite literally screwed. For a drought-prone and arid country like Pakistan, its even more critically dependent on India not messing with its water supply. Besides, i don't see how trying to build dams would help - when the glaciers melt, the whole river is gone and thats that.
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

.why should we be compelled to share our things with other countries?
Its not Nehrugiri, its a matter of logic and human rights. No country can completely control the water of a said river unless the entire river lies within its territorry. That is i think an international law. Despite all the cold war crap, the waterways of eatern europe or western europe (That cross into each other's territories) were not messed with. And its very simple to see why even during times of war, water systems arn't messed with on a national scale that'd end up depriving people of water. Doing that is a total war scenario and total war scenario means nukes are also on the table.
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

what if the middle east decides to cut off oil supply to the US?
They can't otherwise they'd be screwed themselves. Already tried that in the 70s, it hurt them till the 90s (when the price of crude came back to the pre-OPEC crisis days). Oil and gas, as important as it is, isn't gonna cause people to start dying due to the lack of it in matter of weeks. OPEC oil crisis proved that. A Water crisis for a nation lasting weeks is going to be a huge human tragedy. Plus, the infrastructure for international trade and transportation of oil in massive quantities are already in place. There is no such infrastructure for water transportation on that scale internationally. So, even if you are a small third world nation without much oil reserves, you can get oil from someone else if the middle east cuts you out. For water, the situation Pakistan or say Cambodia are in ( does not control the watershed of its major rivers and no significant secondary freshwater source) if the nations upstream from them screws them over, they'r quite literally screwed. For a drought-prone and arid country like Pakistan, its even more critically dependent on India not messing with its water supply. Besides, i don't see how trying to build dams would help - when the glaciers melt, the whole river is gone and thats that.
So, why wouldn't you advocate that Pak take the matter to the UN and get sanctions against India instead of advocating that they nuke your own country? I wouldn't even advocate someone nuking an enemy and here you are being trigger happy and advocating someone nuking your own. :hmph:
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

So, why wouldn't you advocate that Pak take the matter to the UN and get sanctions against India instead of advocating that they nuke your own country?
I am not adocating anything. I am saying what is the likely scenario if India were to stop abiding by the IWT and take aggressive steps to curtail Pakistan's waters. Saying that 'if you do this then XYZ will nuke you' is not supporting the idea that you should be nuked - it is merely letting you know what in my opinion would be the answer.
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

So, why wouldn't you advocate that Pak take the matter to the UN and get sanctions against India instead of advocating that they nuke your own country?
I am not adocating anything. I am saying what is the likely scenario if India were to stop abiding by the IWT and take aggressive steps to curtail Pakistan's waters. Saying that 'if you do this then XYZ will nuke you' is not supporting the idea that you should be nuked - it is merely letting you know what in my opinion would be the answer.
As usual u are full of crap.. yes saying 'if you do this then XYZ will nuke you' certanly is not supportign the idea of nukign that country but in clownish manner u have ignored later part of ur own post whihc is for once we will not be able to hold pakistan resposnible for that.. now this part screams not only ur endorsement but makes nuke attack natural response on ur own county.. OTOH In similar scenario involving usa and ur beloved arab states u could have again been trigger happy and said nuking well u wud have been idiot btu at least consistent idiot.. here u come of as idiot no doubt but self-loathing one to make matters worse..
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

what if the middle east decides to cut off oil supply to the US?
They can't otherwise they'd be screwed themselves. Already tried that in the 70s, it hurt them till the 90s (when the price of crude came back to the pre-OPEC crisis days). Oil and gas, as important as it is, isn't gonna cause people to start dying due to the lack of it in matter of weeks. OPEC oil crisis proved that. A Water crisis for a nation lasting weeks is going to be a huge human tragedy. Plus, the infrastructure for international trade and transportation of oil in massive quantities are already in place. There is no such infrastructure for water transportation on that scale internationally. So, even if you are a small third world nation without much oil reserves, you can get oil from someone else if the middle east cuts you out. For water, the situation Pakistan or say Cambodia are in ( does not control the watershed of its major rivers and no significant secondary freshwater source) if the nations upstream from them screws them over, they'r quite literally screwed. For a drought-prone and arid country like Pakistan, its even more critically dependent on India not messing with its water supply. Besides, i don't see how trying to build dams would help - when the glaciers melt, the whole river is gone and thats that.
So, why wouldn't you advocate that Pak take the matter to the UN and get sanctions against India instead of advocating that they nuke your own country? I wouldn't even advocate someone nuking an enemy and here you are being trigger happy and advocating someone nuking your own. :hmph:
Let us say for starter he is a self-loathing dimwit
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

OTOH In similar scenario involving usa and ur beloved arab states u could have again been trigger happy and said nuking well u wud have been idiot btu at least consistent idiot.
Sure, in similar scenario. As i've already demonstrated, cutting off oil is NOT similar scenario to cutting off water.
for once we will not be able to hold pakistan resposnible for that.. now this part screams not only ur endorsement but makes nuke attack natural response on ur own county..
What that part means is that given the standard of world politics, it'd be an expected reponse from Pakistan. If someone is messing with your drinking/agricultural water supply, nuking them is a very likely scenario for any country.
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Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

What that part means is that given the standard of world politics, it'd be an expected reponse from Pakistan. If someone is messing with your drinking/agricultural water supply, nuking them is a very likely scenario for any country.
For most countries apart from the US, I believe the standard way of trying to resolve such an issue would involve diplomatic pressure via the UN/US/EU, if that fails, then going to war. Nukes.. not so likely. And just a handful of countries have nukes any way, so I'm not sure you could use the "any country" scenario here.
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Finally Baglihaar saga is over we get to keep it

OTOH In similar scenario involving usa and ur beloved arab states u could have again been trigger happy and said nuking well u wud have been idiot btu at least consistent idiot.
Sure, in similar scenario. As i've already demonstrated, cutting off oil is NOT similar scenario to cutting off water.
for once we will not be able to hold pakistan resposnible for that.. now this part screams not only ur endorsement but makes nuke attack natural response on ur own county..
What that part means is that given the standard of world politics, it'd be an expected reponse from Pakistan. If someone is messing with your drinking/agricultural water supply, nuking them is a very likely scenario for any country.
baloney water supply cut off impact might take time but oil cut off effects swiftly... u my fridn are self loather communist nothing less nothing more.. u know the kind who raise fund for china in chia/inia war like mani shankar aiyar
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