Birbal3 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Tell it to him Kabira... I am sick and tired of people unfairly besmirching the good name of Gujarat... If anything, most Gujaratis feel a sense of shame about the aftermath of the Train burning in Godhra...and are trying to put it behind them.... But for the rest of the country and of course for our interfering neighbor to the west... it is a convenient stick to take out their JEALOUSY for one of Indias best run and managed states...which has clocked 15% growth rates for nearly a decade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 >When Hindus are attacked by Muslims, Hindutva is characterized as the manifest expression of a ?secular? Indian nationalism and Muslims are labelled as terrorist. Actualy muslims are labelled as terrorist all around the world...and its their fault..they are not willing to clean up mess..and instead they are blaming other religions...they dare to burn trains and kill innocents..and if people retliate they become "becharas"..I must say come out that mentality and face the truth.. Hindutva leading life of Hindu..and what is being Hindu...ever heard "Vasudev Kutumbkam", " The term "Hindutva" is derived from the two terms 'Hindu Tattva", which literally mean "Hindu Principles". Now the question is, what are Hindu Principles and what comprises the "Hindutva" Outlook? To answer this question we would have to begin with the history of the Hindus. The history of the Hindus is the history of a civilization which has developed in its natural state, without interruption, since antiquity. Its age is dated to be between five and nine thousand years. Hence Hindu History is a prototype of how human civilization would have looked, if civilization all across the globe had been allowed to develop in its natural state. This is the relevance for us to study Hindu Civilization, Hindu History and Hindu Culture. The evolution of Hindu Civilization can be considered to be natural and continuing as there is no last messiah in the Hindu world view. In fact this is what distinguishes Hindu Civilization from the rest. And this is why Hinduism is called a Living Idea, guided by the sum total of human wisdom that is not considered to be embodied in one person, or one book, or one period of human history. Hence the term "Living". Hindutva is the articulation of this idea of continuity of freedom of thought from which emerge the multifarious Hindu Principles. Two instances of Hindu Principles that symbolize the outcome of freedom of thought are the pronouncements made not today, but four thousand years back by unnamed rishis (Hindu ascetics) that, "This world is one family" (Vasudaiva Kutumbakam) and that "The Universal Reality is the same, but different people can call it by different names" (Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti). In these two proclamations made in ancient Hindu India, we see the seeds of globalism and freedom of thought, four thousand years before the world was to become the global village of today. Thus in its true essence, Hindutva is a stridently assertive rational-humanist line of reasoning. And it is this essence of Hindutva that we have kept in mind, while developing this website. At the level of practice, the Hindutva outlook boils down to upholding righteousness (Sat-guna) and fighting ignoble attitudes (Dur-guna). Taking poetic license, we can describe the practitioners of this outlook as "Heenam Naashaayati iti Hinduhu" (Those who uphold righteousness and fight ignobleness are Hindus). If Muslim follows above he can be Hindu too.. Btw, you still havent answered me? What part of India you from?? seems very sensitive question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
head coach Posted February 26, 2007 Author Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Kabira, Thanks for the post. I do not question the religion or its practices. Infact I do respect some of the things from the religion and takes it into my heart when dealing with others. I only question the chameleon character of Indian fascism which is fuelled by Hindutva. A nationalist ideology that seeks to impose an order in which Hindus are the only people to possess full democratic rights in India. An ideology which is quite separate from the traditions and spiritual practices of Hinduism itself. I agree with you on all good things that you explain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 > But only Gujarat is highlighted because most of the times muslims are the ones most affected (I should say highlighted in media)...because hindus in Gujarat dont give a damn. The give more than what they get.. Be careful Kabira. Pride always comes before the fall. Hindus in Gujrat should give a damn. Why? Because it is Hindus from the rest of the country that have taken battle on their behalf. Look around on this board do you think everyone that fights for Gujrat is a Gujrati? Of course not. The fact is that no other issue has shamed India in past decade or so as Gujrat riots. Please tell me where I am going wrong, better still give me an example of an episode that has been thrown day in and day out on every Indian's face to show how bad his country is. Thats why conversion in Gujarat is lowest...and mind you, if Majority is happy and at peace, it will always be reflected on minority..Muslims in Gujarat are well off than any part of India...Quite a lot of Bohra community have thriving businesses. See this exactly is my quandry and a question that you have not been able to answer(not that I know the answer myself). It is one thing to kill when people are poor. But it is obviously not the case in Gujrat. You can call it media and all that but I hope you realize that there is no smoke without fire. I for one could not beleive when I saw rich people coming in cars, rioting and taking stuff back in cars. These were no poverty driven people. Educationally also Gujrat is pretty decent I think. Plus percentage of Muslim population isnt much. So why so many riots? As for the conversion and all you would find very little of them happening in UP/Bihar etc, where bulk of Muslim population reside today. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Tell it to him Kabira... I am sick and tired of people unfairly besmirching the good name of Gujarat... You should be equally outraged if any part of India is besmirched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 >The fact is that no other issue has shamed India in past decade or so as Gujrat riots. Please tell me where I am going wrong, better still give me an example of an episode that has been thrown day in and day out on every Indian's face to show how bad his country is. no mention of cause?? why am I surprised? >See this exactly is my quandry and a question that you have not been able to answer(not that I know the answer myself). It is one thing to kill when people are poor. But it is obviously not the case in Gujrat. You can call it media and all that but I hope you realize that there is no smoke without fire. I for one could not beleive when I saw rich people coming in cars, rioting and taking stuff back in cars. These were no poverty driven people. Educationally also Gujrat is pretty decent I think. Plus percentage of Muslim population isnt much. So why so many riots? As for the conversion and all you would find very little of them happening in UP/Bihar etc, where bulk of Muslim population reside today. are you saying there are riots every day?? How many riots have happened in Gujarat in last 60 years? For every riot there is a reason. Wasnt there riot in Mau UP 2005?? Now thats far from Gujarat..There has been riots in coastal Kerala...even Hyderabad..recently when I was India there were riots in Indore.. Riots happen because "My religion says "Vasudev Kutumbakam" and "Viprah Bahuda Vadanti" and my neighbors religion says "you will only go to heaven if you follow my religion, if you dont follow you are kafir". Thats the reason my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Lurker, we have not had a brutal incident as the train massacre of hindus that preceeded the riots, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 But for the rest of the country and of course for our interfering neighbor to the west... it is a convenient stick to take out their JEALOUSY for one of Indias best run and managed states...which has clocked 15% growth rates for nearly a decade... I feel sorry for you. An Indian that criticizes Gujrat does so because of JEALOUSY? You do realize that you are tacidly suggesting that Indians think along certain lines(state based) and start feeling jealous towards a more prosperous state. Do you understand that such a thinking is a recipe for disaster for India as a country? I would like you to either elaborate on that or admit that it was perhaps a slip on your part in a moment of frustration. So which one was it? xx xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabbar Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 So why so many riots? Because unlike others - gujju would like to deal bs with bs - instead of apologizing to thousands for no reason- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 no mention of cause?? why am I surprised? You should have been suprised. Because otherwise you are making a judgment about me, which I am not doing for you. So yes it would be nice if we could just exchange ideas and not fall into making judgement calls based on them. So Kabira do you think there has been any incident in modern Indian history that has been thrown in the face of Indians more than Gujrat has been? are you saying there are riots every day?? How many riots have happened in Gujarat in last 60 years? For every riot there is a reason. Wasnt there riot in Mau UP 2005?? Now thats far from Gujarat..There has been riots in coastal Kerala...even Hyderabad..recently when I was India there were riots in Indore.. There are riots in India. But which state is most notorious for them? You mention Kerela. Do you seriously think Kerela enjoys the same notorierty? Not even UP does. But atleast UP has a huge Muslim population, and a poor Muslim Population at that. What is Gujrat's excuse? See I am not being a finger pointer here. I am perhaps acting more in a Sociologist mode. Let me repeat what I said. Gujrat is economically doing great, pretty educated society with good quality of life and a small minority population. So why do riots happen? And no 2002 wasnt the first time riots have happened. Many cities in Gujrat have been historically communally sensitive with riots. If you would like I would try to look them up on web. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 >There are riots in India. But which state is most notorious for them? You mention Kerela. Do you seriously think Kerela enjoys the same notorierty? Not even UP does. But atleast UP has a huge Muslim population, and a poor Muslim Population at that. What is Gujrat's excuse? I again ask how many riots have happenend in Gujarat in past 60 years. Why do you say Gujarat is notorious for riots?? Muslims are minority, but not everywhere in Gujarat...There are parts of Ahmedabad, I would even today will be $hit scared to venture in dark..They are muslim ghettos..places like Mirzapur, Shah-alam...are the ones were riots start... Then there are places like Godhra..which we call it mini Pakistan... So your notion that muslims are in minority and hence there should be no riots is hogwash..doesnt happen that way.. Tell me what happened in Kashmir..Muslim in majority...and what they did, drove away KPs...from their homeland.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 So why so many riots? Because unlike others - gujju would like to deal bs with bs - instead of apologizing to thousands for no reason- Welcome aboard Gabbar ji. I dont think I have seen you here before so enjoy your stay and all. Okay this line about dealing bs with bs that is what should I say is the right word , ridiculous right? For starters the pecentage of Muslim in Gujrat is less than 10% of entire population. In other words 9 Hindus can round 1 Muslim and deal with bs? Doesnt say much now does it? Secondly are you suggesting that the rest of the country, a whopping 950 million people are more than happy to bend over backwards and face the bs? It is only the gujjus(as you put it) who have managed to see the light? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 I come from place called Rajkot, Muslims in real minority and most of them are Vohras....suppose to be most peaceful town I would say in entire India...reason I say is because there havnt been untoward incident by Muslims unlike Ahmedabad where they have burned Indian trio color. Peace is not a one way traffic..and will never be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 >For starters the pecentage of Muslim in Gujrat is less than 10% of entire population. yeah but they still dared to burn down train bogey and killed innocents..and you want Gujaratis to forget that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabbar Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 head -coach "Kabira, whether you agree or not, it is evident that Gujarat is the most visible stomping ground of Hindu supremacist ideologues" Where do you get your information from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 > I again ask how many riots have happenend in Gujarat in past 60 years. Why do you say Gujarat is notorious for riots?? Kabira. In my living memory I can recall Gujrat facing riots in 1985(Ahmedabad), 1992(post Babri) and 2002. If you are a Gujrati you would know them better than me. Of these 2002 is the worst. Not only for Gujrat but absolute worst in modern Indian history. No riots ever, in any state in India, has killed more people than 2002 Gujrat. SO yes Gujrat indeed has a bad name when it comes to riots yes. There are parts of Ahmedabad, I would even today will be $hit scared to venture in dark..They are muslim ghettos..places like Mirzapur, Shah-alam...are the ones were riots start... Hmm okay so if I understand you right then riots often starts at the place where there is a sizeable Muslim population? If thats true then that's regrettable but understandable. I can surely see why groups with firepower on both side can collide. By the way what about Naroda-Patiya? Are they also Muslim dominated? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 BB, Too many questions(and frankly I have had an overdose of them the past day or so) but let me see how I can address them. The hypocrysy with which the psecs went ahead and tainted Gujrat is sickening ..... You will have to elaborate on this one. I am not sure whom are you talking about really. Consider Kashmir and Guj .... which do you think should deserves more column inches ? Why the hypocrysy ? Between the two who deserves more column inches? Kashmir obviously. And what makes you think it does not? Do you, for example, realize that at any given moment of time more Indian Security Forces are in Kashmir than any other place? You would think thats so because people are not serious about Kashmir? From my personal memory Kashmir and Punjab were the main story lines between 1980-1990. So much so that in a weird way most families were almost "bored" with daily news about them. Post 90 it was Bombay for a while and after 2000 its Gujrat. Why Gujrat? Because it is the single worst case of human riots in Indian history. Because it is where Indians were killed while the State Government collapsed. So no I do not buy this Gujrat is "over-exposed" by media. BTW Why doesnt Mumbai not get the same notority .... considering there have been equal no.of Hindus killed by Islamic terrorists ... is it because there are not enuff Muslims killed ? It did. In 90's. Do you think it was Gujrat that was discussed in 90's? No not quite. Which again brings back to the question I asked elsewhere .... why is it ok for Hindus to die in riots and not others ? Thats your assertion not mine. Indians killed are Indians killed. When Biharis were killed enmasse in Assam sometime back it was widely reported, criticized by media. Security was "beefed" up and many incidents with ULFA followed. So no I do not agree that Hindu life is any less than a Muslim. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Hain ? I have never seen any media reports Hauling the J&K/Central Govt over coal ... as much as was done for the Modi Govt.... or am I imagining all this :shrug: Then you were not reading the good old Indian Express/Hindu etc. Remember the days the Editors would slam how Kashmir was burning while Dr. Faruq Abdullah played Golf in Sringar(or Delhi)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 Modi for PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Re: Guajarat 2006 Is Deadlier Than 2002 .its not the job of majority to appease minorities..its other way round.. Err no. It is nobody's job to appease anybody. Reardless of whether you are the majority or minority or a fringe tribal group with only 1000 people, your rights are equally important and inalienable as the rest's. Do not make the common mistake in assuming that majority is always right. Nazi germany should be a good enough example why sometimes even the rule of the majority should be opposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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