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Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)


Gaurav

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) It's a depressing article, particularly because it's penned by a Pakistani. Nobody likes to see a country go down the drain, but that's exactly what's happening in Pakistan. What is it about the psyche of this country that holds them back in the medieval ages when the rest of the world is moving forward? The economy is crawling along and foreign direct investment lags way behind its competitors. Its dreams of becoming the Islamic capital of the world lies in tatters. The article highlights the differences with Iran & Afghanistan. Religious extremism ticks away like a time bomb. It's only a matter of time before it explodes. Terror exports like Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed make your stomach turn in horror and disgust. Remmber the grisly beheading of Daniel Pearl on the net? Sheikh Mohammed did it. And a lot else, it seems. Looking at what's going on across the border, Indians should be concerned...and relieved. Concerned about the average Pakistani, who has no escape, unlike the select few who immigrate to the west for a better life. Relieved that they no longer have to pick up the tabs for what would have been the most unruly and underdeveloped part of undivided India, but for the much derided partition.

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) So what do you suggest? Isn't it enough that fully 60 years after partition, Hindus and Muslims live in peace side by side in our secular country, while religious sectarianism tears our neighbour apart? Why do you have to complicate matters?

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

What is it about the psyche of this country that holds them back in the medieval ages when the rest of the world is moving forward?
Answer: Religion above everything. I know I will be flammed by the "Politically Correct" mob that can see no wrong at all in that doctrine .... but in this day and age you gotta be stupid to turn a blind eye to the writings that are clearly on the wall ... as the cliche goes ... Like Gai Ka dood says .... jaisi murgi waisa unda ...
Relieved that they no longer have to pick up the tabs for what would have been the most unruly and underdeveloped part of undivided India, but for the much derided partition.
Dont count your chickens too fast doc.... remember we got plenty of members from "Club Ummah" right in our country ... and they outnumber our beloved padosees ... as far as numbers are concerned and are no slouches when it comes to religion matters .... In short ... keep turning a blind eye ... and we will have many more Kashmirs .
Bheem , I get your message loud and clear. Who funds these extremist. Everything boils down to the Saudi Kingdom and their oil rich dollars. And Keep in mind that 70 % of our oil get's imported from these countries. So we have to show some restraint when it comes to "Club Ummah". Heck , a superpower like US if forced to play ball with Saudi. If it weren't for the oil, it would have wiped out Saudi long ago. Now , extremism in pakistan is just a extension of Wahabi agenda funded by Saudis. Even the Madrassas operated in India are funded by Saudi. So what say you ? :shrug:
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) For starters one has to give props to Pakistani journalists like Ahmed Rashid. Yes we have enough of jingoist Indians who can not stop salivating at their mouth any time they hear/read something negative about Pakistan, but it is also prudent to remember that Pakistani journalists are second to none when it comes to matter of courageously standing up. Coming to your questions Dhondy.

What is it about the psyche of this country that holds them back in the medieval ages when the rest of the world is moving forward?
Of course it is not a simple Yes and No answer. There are myriad reasonings here but a prominent cause in here is General Zia-Ul-Haq. Pakistan's slide, economically as well as theologically, started during the course of "Islamisation" by General Zia. He was more than happy to have Pakistan the laboratory of Islam and we all know how that went. The average Pakistani suddenly had an overgrowth of religious sentimentalism(compare a Pakistani cricket player of 70's/80's with today), there was an overdose of "Western conspiracy"(not always misplaced mind you) and so on. A couple of years ago, a Karachi monthly magazine ran a cover story on the terrorism in Kashmir. One fighter was asked what he would do if a political resolution was found for the disputed valley. Revealingly, he replied that he would not lay down his gun, but turn it on the Pakistani leadership, with the aim of installing an Islamic government there. And something very similar happened when a bunch of armed girls seized a library in Islamabad and the Govt. could not do anything.
Looking at what's going on across the border, Indians should be concerned...and relieved.
Indians should be more concerned than releived. Why? Well we already are surrounded by failed states, do we need another one? And a failed state that is so much powerful than the rest of them combined? Which country today exists as a prosperous country when it has failed states on its border? My worries are more with the fact that the more Pakistan fails the more it shall get under the influence of China. Chinese could not have wished for better luck really. Keep throwing bits and pieces at Pakistan and have India's hands full! xxx
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

For starters one has to give props to Pakistani journalists like Ahmed Rashid. Yes we have enough of jingoist Indians who can not stop salivating at their mouth any time they hear/read something negative about Pakistan, but it is also prudent to remember that Pakistani journalists are second to none when it comes to matter of courageously standing up.
Hmmm...there are enough jingoists on the other side too, methinks. And there are plenty of self deprecating Indian scribes. I appreciate your efforts to be fair, Lurker, but must it be at the cost of flagellating ourselves?
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

Remember doc .... Iam only the messenger whose ONLY allegiance is with the truth tables.
I am not sure I believe that on this side of the forum, Boss. You clearly have an agenda, and a pretty obvious one at that. My problem with you is that you put too much of your "views" in, and too little of "news". I'd stick to reporting what happens, rather than trying to put my own slanted spin on everything. It just takes away from the credibility.
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

I appreciate your efforts to be fair, Lurker, but must it be at the cost of flagellating ourselves?
Thats the way you may see it Dhondy but my very first impression after reading this article was exactly what I have penned in my first para - that it would take ball$ to write such an article, specially in a Dictatorial form of Governance. So no there is no self-depracating here. Credit where its due, many of Pakistani journalist are top notch. xxxx
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) Pakistan was due for an implosion and it doesnt surprise..... it has always been a country which has struggled to appease state and religion..... heck, the whole country was formed on the basis of religion which was used to satisfy some political ambitions.... there in itself, u see the beginnign of the interwining of politics and religion.... Mushy is not as strong a leader as Sod Hussey was..... But the problem is, he is strong enough to be in power, but not strong enough to really influence the thoughts of the masses... I hope for the world's sake, democracy wins over mullahs, cos the world really cant afford an islamic nuke state.....

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) I don't agree with the economy bit. Yes Pakistan's society and culture (and gov't and civil institutions) are becoming very religious in nature (a Saudi-wannabe country, if you will), but it's economy has shown a lot of fight since 2000. The GDP has doubled since the late nineties, their national debt used to be around 70-80 percent of their total GDP--no longer. And as for that Balochistan comment--I have serious doubts about Iran's supposed displeasure at Pak.'s internal policy. If Pak. is successfully able to quell the Baloch rebellion/secession (whatever), the better for Iran as they have a substantial Baloch population in their country as well. And the Pak. intelligence agencies vetting Parlimentarians!?!?!? What?!!?!?! You mean the military exercises control over institutions that should be free of military control?!!?!? Nooooooooooooo! When did this start????????????

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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

Its dreams of becoming the Islamic capital of the world lies in tatters.
Every terrorist at some stage in his/her lifes passes through pakitsan, right there they seem to have already achieved the dream
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) Pakistan as a nation is nopt going to fail for one and only reason it has too big a military for its size and will keep subjugating civil uprising with potential of disintegrating the state in fragments like it has done in past. Yes contrary to hopless romantics idea of how prosperous pakistan is in India's interest well facts again are not in unison with this notion. Only period in which India saw a relatively quiter western border was when pakistan was in deep $hit which was between 71 and 90.

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

You see without the west buying most of the oil from the Sheikhs who will they sell it to ?
Trust me when i say that middle east does not need western customers as much as the west needs middle eastern oil. If the US boycotted middle eastern oil or found a humongous reserve in US territorirries (say, enough to take care of America's entire oil consumption and even turn it into a net exporter), it'd matter not an iota to the middle east. India, China, Brazil, South Africa, Japan, etc. will lap up the oil with glee and want more. Hell, Qatar for example exports most of its oil and gas to Japan, Kuwait sells most of its oil and gas to Korea, Taiwan and Ireland i think. But yes, we gotto do something about the Pakistan problem. And i honestly don't know what to do. Even if we, say for argument's sake, managed to completely seal off Pakistan-Bangladesh border and monitored it with a fleet of satellites and thousands-strong border force, they will simply export their cells into Nepal or Burma or Sri Lanka or somewhere else and start comming in from there.
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

Pakistan as a nation is nopt going to fail for one and only reason it has too big a militant for its size and will keep subjugating civil uprising with potential of disintegrating the state in fragments like it has done in past.
Agree.
Yes contrary to hopless romantics idea of how prosperous pakistan is in India's interest well facts again are not in unison with this notion.
Agree.
Only period in which India saw a relatively quiter western border was when pakistan was in deep $hit which was between 71 and 90.
Agree. Look, the only way we are going to solve this problem is bringing in our muslim population. We need to get rid of the fundoo muslim leaders in India and their bootlickers and get it so that moderate muslims are elected as community leaders/mullahs. This is how Turkey self-polices its muslim population and manages to stay secular despite being a muslim majority country- the secularists just infiltrate the clergy base and any mullah that gets too radical just mysteriously disappears or they don't let a radical mullah succeed as the next imam of a major mosque. This will force the jihadis from cross-border or even in india to start targetting mainstream muslims and turn mainstream muslims against them. Why do you think muslim jihadis dont go messing with Turkey ? Okay, its a muslim majority nation but its government is secular and its not a sharia state- but the jihadis know that attacking turkey will only open a major conflict amongst muslims in completely new lines ( not the old set lines of shia-sunni or muslim-kaffir). If mainstream muslims start getting victimised by the radicals, it will bring them into conflict and have an islamic force that is against fundie islam. That is what we need and that is why i think both the current 'appeasement government' and the 'jar se ukhaaro hinduvta' people are both nutters and don't get the picture at all. 'jar se ukhaaro' mentality only serves to unite them against us and give more recruits to the fundies. Do not attack islam- try to control it inside india at the least by actively encouraging moderate ascention. I think following this philosophy for a generation or two will show results inside India and frakly, i wouldn't mind following it for 20-30 years before it finally worked. The time right now is ripe for influencing Islam in the way Turkey does. Its very bad for attacking Islam as a whole- leave that to later generations.
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

Pakistan as a nation is nopt going to fail for one and only reason it has too big a militant for its size and will keep subjugating civil uprising with potential of disintegrating the state in fragments like it has done in past.
Agree.
Yes contrary to hopless romantics idea of how prosperous pakistan is in India's interest well facts again are not in unison with this notion.
Agree.
Only period in which India saw a relatively quiter western border was when pakistan was in deep $hit which was between 71 and 90.
Agree. Look, the only way we are going to solve this problem is bringing in our muslim population. We need to get rid of the fundoo muslim leaders in India and their bootlickers and get it so that moderate muslims are elected as community leaders/mullahs. This is how Turkey self-polices its muslim population and manages to stay secular despite being a muslim majority country- the secularists just infiltrate the clergy base and any mullah that gets too radical just mysteriously disappears or they don't let a radical mullah succeed as the next imam of a major mosque. This will force the jihadis from cross-border or even in india to start targetting mainstream muslims and turn mainstream muslims against them. Why do you think muslim jihadis dont go messing with Turkey ? Okay, its a muslim majority nation but its government is secular and its not a sharia state- but the jihadis know that attacking turkey will only open a major conflict amongst muslims in completely new lines ( not the old set lines of shia-sunni or muslim-kaffir). If mainstream muslims start getting victimised by the radicals, it will bring them into conflict and have an islamic force that is against fundie islam. That is what we need and that is why i think both the current 'appeasement government' and the 'jar se ukhaaro hinduvta' people are both nutters and don't get the picture at all. 'jar se ukhaaro' mentality only serves to unite them against us and give more recruits to the fundies. Do not attack islam- try to control it inside india at the least by actively encouraging moderate ascention. I think following this philosophy for a generation or two will show results inside India and frakly, i wouldn't mind following it for 20-30 years before it finally worked. The time right now is ripe for influencing Islam in the way Turkey does. Its very bad for attacking Islam as a whole- leave that to later generations.
I won't retype things which i have already done but two things.. (1) Where are those moderate muslim leaders which can be propped up (2) How do u propose eliminating the fundoo ones (3) there is no "jar se Ukharo hindutava" brigade .. it's all psec hallucination. I have posted this many time even the socalled worst of hindutava leader like togadia comes of way better than any moderate muslim leader u will ever find.. "HE is on record uttering words like let us sit and purge our religious texts from BS edicts towards each other".. There can't be any better show of spirit of reconciliation. PS: You may try many things but if extrapolation has taught me anything then I know the result in advance. And yes turkey may be secular by pathetic islamic standards . In absolute sense well.....even there if I am nto mistaken u can't preach anything other than islam on public tv..
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) Turkey is 99.9 % muslim. So , I guess the need doesn't arise to preach anything other than islam. Contrary to what CC is saying , I feel that Turkey has been secular not because of the moderate mullahs/community leaders but because of it's army, the foundation of which was laid by Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk. Ataturk was influenced by the social revolution in Europe. He was instrumental in abolishing the veiling of women and integration to females to social life and the secular framework that exists in turkey. In fact the mullahs of Turkey nowadays are actually undermining the secular framework set by the army.In 2002 dramatic change came when the Islamic "Justice and Development Party" assumed the head of government. More than 55 % of turkey population voted for the Islamic party . This party developed and pursued a new policy toward the Islamic world and slowly but steadly undermining secular turkey.The Islamic orientation of Turkey?s new ruling party became apparent with its pursuit of greater rapprochement with Iran, its strengthening of economic relations with the Arab Gulf states, its contacts with Islamic forces in Palestine, as well as with the restructuring of its relations with Syria, which surpassed even the most optimistic expectations. The problem that I see is muslims somehow feel very alienated by the West and are shunting even their democracy. They feel Islamic republic under Sharia should be the governance of Islamic countries. This is where they are losing the plot in my opinion. I hope Indian muslims realize that it is in their best interest to be more sensitive to the culture/customs of local populace rather than blindly following abrahamic customs. And Hindus on their part , should also try to be more understanding towards muslims and should try to integrate them into their fold. I am shocked to see that even in big cities like mumbai, bangalore , Hyderabad , muslims live separately and in isolation . I guess it's a catch 22 situation for them. Greater safety in numbers but this hinders integration.

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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

I feel that Turkey has been secular not because of the moderate mullahs/community leaders but because of it's army, the foundation of which was laid by Mustafa Kemal Atat?rk. Ataturk was influenced by the social revolution in Europe.
Arrey baba, its the military and the government that 'makes sure' moderate mullahs come to power and fundoo ones don't in the first place- thats what Ataturk started !
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Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article)

(1) Where are those moderate muslim leaders which can be propped up
They are there-but drowned out by the fundoo ones or the silent ones.
(2) How do u propose eliminating the fundoo ones
Easy- just eliminate the fundoo ones who are the 'main mullahs' at major mosques and promote the ascendancy of a moderate one to take their place over the next 10 years. Don't have to do them all in one night. The really old ones we can wait out to die- the not so old ones can meet with 'accidents'.
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Guest dada_rocks

Re: Pakistan's 'isolated' president (good article) Who doesn't have agenda and moreover why having agenda is somehow insinuated as some sort of negative thing. . Never mind Doc, hewould like everyone to be indifferent to every happenstance around him/her unfortunately that's not possible.

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