Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

1) There can be a valid critique that at the time of Ashoka there was no India.

A valid criticism from the school of thought that India is only a political entity for the last 60 years.However, to most, India, much like ancient rome or china is not just a current political entity but the subcontinental civilization from the ancient times.

2) Ashoka did not really create any major leaders after his reign.

That isn't his fault really. His son was a competent ruler and i don't think how you can measure someone's accomplishments based on who he/she directly was succeeded by. This is like saying Sobers didnt create a superstar cricketer son so its supposed to reflect negetively on Sobers.

ut I can not recall any of his tutelages that went on to become landmark rulers.

That means squat, mate. However, there are significant number of great rulers subsequently who were influenced greatly by Ashoka's example. Chandragupta the second (founder of Gupta dynasty) openly states his deep admiration for Ashoka, so does Kanishka, rulers in cambodia and surprisingly enough, Gaius Marius (one of the greatest Roman leaders) states Ashoka's example a few times too.

[yoda]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? MKG

[Lurker]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

A valid criticism from the school of thought that India is only a political entity for the last 60 years.However, to most, India, much like ancient rome or china is not just a current political entity but the subcontinental civilization from the ancient times.

The two thoughts are very ambiguous. In the first method(60 odd years of Independence) we are left with only a slice of our history. In the second approach we are left with our history but far less slice of land, and indeed many issues. Ashoka's area of influence extended beyond current India, but didnt include all of current India. So it gets a tad murky. Which approach is better then? Well that is a debate in itself altogether. I would much rather pick the current situation as it doesnt create any ambiguity.

That isn't his fault really. His son was a competent ruler and i don't think how you can measure someone's accomplishments based on who he/she directly was succeeded by. This is like saying Sobers didnt create a superstar cricketer son so its supposed to reflect negetively on Sobers. That means squat, mate.

Errr actually no. The OP of this thread clearly states, "Leaders are those who create more leaders...". Hence my assertion Ashoka didnt create/leave any oustanding successor. By the way Sobers example is afaulty one. He is widely acknowledged as one of all-time greats, possibly the greatest, but his record as a leader is hardly anything to brag about. He is never mentioned as a great leader, not even in top 20. xxx

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Ashoka's area of influence extended beyond current India, but didnt include all of current India.

Actually no, Ashoka's area of influence extended beyond current India and included all of current India. You see, the areas Ashoka didn't control directly but belong in modern-day India are : Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Kashmir, Arunachal area. Tha areas Ashoka controlled but doesn't belong in modern-day India are : Bangladesh, Nepal, Pakistan, Afghanistan. However, according to Ashokavardhana, Ashoka was the supreme leader of the subcontinent, as the Pandya/Chera kings of the very south, the Sinhala king and the kings of Arunachal & Kashmir region were vassals to Ashoka. Ashoka let them rule their land independently but they had to pay tribute (in men and gold) to Ashoka as well as support his political decisions. So yes, he didnt have suzerienty over all of india but all of india and more certainly danced to his commands. Bear in mind that Ashoka also has some excellent claims to military leadership. When he went to quell the uprising in Purushapura (then under his elder miscreant brother Sushima's governance), he was greeted as the second-comming of Sikander (Alexander) due to his exceptional military leadership skills while still in his teens.

The OP of this thread clearly states, "Leaders are those who create more leaders...".

And i find that benchmark to be ludicrous, really. However, i am addressing the main OP of this thread- who are great leaders. It is a given that people will disagree on what makes a great leader, hence the OP you quoted is not really relevant to the overall thread.

[Lurker]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Actually no, Ashoka's area of influence extended beyond current India and included all of current India.

Area of influence is different from area directly under a Kingship. To the best of my knowledge Ashoka's kingdom did not extend beyond Kamrupa(modern Assam) and hence it would exclude Arunachal Pradesh and further East. Same with Souther India, Tamil Nadu for example. The area beyond India of course will include parts of Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afganistan. Then again these are not part of modern-day India.

And i find that benchmark to be ludicrous, really. However, i am addressing the main OP of this thread- who are great leaders

That is all fine but you already know why I dont put Ashoka in this category. Like I mentioned before he didnt leave any able successors after him. By the way what makes you put Ashoka as a great leader? Am curious. xxx

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Area of influence is different from area directly under a Kingship.

I think area of influence is the main issue as this is the most accurate way of reflecting the political (and hence leadership) influence of a nation/state.

By the way what makes you put Ashoka as a great leader? Am curious.

Visionary social, cultural, educational reform coupled with impeccable generalship of his armies. Some of Ashoka's remarkable reforms: 1. Built thousands of stupas/viharas- which essentially doubled in as learning centers 2. Banned the unneccessary slaughter and mutilation of animals, primarily for sport 3. First ruler in human history to protect wildlife and designate nature reserves banning logging/hunting in those areas- also banned the cruel idea of branding animals. 4. Actively promoted the study and further development of Ayurveda and health sciences 5. Opened over 10,000 schools and hospitals over his realm 6. Built massive road networks to promote trade and built resthouses for the travellers that were free of charge 7. Built canal and irrigation systems to imrpove land usage and connectivity 8. Implemented a secular policy where all subject regardless of caste,creed and religion are of equal status 9. Created emergency funds to support the largely unsupported farming communities in times of famine or flood 10. Created a taxation scheme that was tier-based on income and not status based or caste-based. 11. Allowed every prisoner a certain amount of free time out of the jails every year These are only some of his visionary accomplishments that are near-unparalleled in the ancient world. A leader to me is one who builds a society that promotes benevolence and education. Ashoka is a brilliant example of that.

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Like I mentioned before he didnt leave any able successors after him.

And like i said, that is a very subjective and mostly erroneous way of measuring leaders. Alexander didnt leave any able successor after him either. Neither did Ramses the Great or Augustus Ceaser. Or Hanno the great/Hannibal Barca. Or Kurash the IInd or Xerxes. Neither did Elizabeth the Ist or Peter the Great/Catherine the great. All of them are recognized as noteworthy leaders and some of the greatest in mankind's history.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? What an irony that the so called Pacifist chooses Chandashok , one of the most brutal emperors that India has produced .

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

What an irony that the so called Pacifist chooses Chandashok , one of the most brutal emperors that India has produced .

The same Chandashok that became Dharmashok. No reason why a man cannot change and Ashoka again, is the greatest example of how 'karuna' can inspire a person to change for the better. In his case, spectacularly so. You realize that it was the Kalingans themselves who talked about Ashoka in glowing terms after Ashoka made ammends and ruled Kalinga spectacularly well ? To jab mian-biwi raazi, to kya karegaa kazi(you) ? But hey, Ashoka is a northie. I expect to see resistance from you. :hic:

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

What an irony that the so called Pacifist chooses Chandashok ' date=' one of the most brutal emperors that India has produced .[/quote'] The same Chandashok that became Dharmashok. No reason why a man cannot change and Ashoka again, is the greatest example of how 'karuna' can inspire a person to change for the better. In his case, spectacularly so. But hey, Ashoka is a northie. I expect to see resistance from you. :hic:

Then clearly mention that you follow Dharmashok ! BTW , Their was no person in Kalinga alive after handashok's misadventure! My list , if you care to read above includes only northies ! :hic:

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Then clearly mention that you follow Dharmashok !

They are the same person ! I am talking about Ashoka...all that he's done as a leader - unparalleled in Indian history as far as i am concerned. For 40 years he ruled brilliantly- yes, he facked up early in his reign but you forget that he was pushed over the edge by his elder brother Sushima continously plotting against him and even trying to kill him. In that kind of an environment, plus he became the emperor really young-in his teens- its no surprise that he went the regular route of conquest,bloodshed and brutality. What is a surprise is that he changed and went completely the other way in his 20s and remained so for the rest of his life. You also forget one thing - in our culture, all is forgiven once you are remorseful. Ashoka not only was remorseful, he made ammends for the next 40 years brilliantly. You also forget that one of the greatest icon in hindu culture- swami valmiki- who was a great sage and a brilliant person, started off as a plain ol murderous highway bandit. So i don't see why anyone with half a brain would judge Ashoka only on what he did as a young hotheaded teenager/early 20s guy.

[Lurker]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

Visionary social, cultural, educational reform coupled with impeccable generalship of his armies. Some of Ashoka's remarkable reforms: 1. Built thousands of stupas/viharas- which essentially doubled in as learning centers 2. Banned the unneccessary slaughter and mutilation of animals, primarily for sport 3. First ruler in human history to protect wildlife and designate nature reserves banning logging/hunting in those areas- also banned the cruel idea of branding animals. 4. Actively promoted the study and further development of Ayurveda and health sciences 5. Opened over 10,000 schools and hospitals over his realm 6. Built massive road networks to promote trade and built resthouses for the travellers that were free of charge 7. Built canal and irrigation systems to imrpove land usage and connectivity 8. Implemented a secular policy where all subject regardless of caste,creed and religion are of equal status 9. Created emergency funds to support the largely unsupported farming communities in times of famine or flood 10. Created a taxation scheme that was tier-based on income and not status based or caste-based. 11. Allowed every prisoner a certain amount of free time out of the jails every year These are only some of his visionary accomplishments that are near-unparalleled in the ancient world. A leader to me is one who builds a society that promotes benevolence and education. Ashoka is a brilliant example of that.

They are all debatable points frankly but I wont push it. For two reasons, One I respect Ashoka myself. Two my hometown was integral part of his Kingdom( hence my avtar :hic: ). Personally I am not a huge fan of Kings/Conquerors/Religious Figures mentioned as Leaders of men. No. There is not a single King/religious figure/conquerer who does not have blood on his hand, one or the other. I would much rather go with Freedom Fighters, Sports figure, Business Person and like that. As for erroneous point about leadership(a leader is a good leader who creates more leaders) well thats the way this thread is. Just like someone can suggest who was the Greatest leader of men, based on the fact that he claimed least glory for himself. Its just one barometer really. xxxx

[ask4me]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? Thread Hijacked :hic:

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

They are all debatable points frankly but I wont push it

I don't think so. These are not just mentioned in Mahavamsa or Ashokavardhana that for some reason people here tend to dismiss because their authors wernt casteist hindu brahmins. Pliny the Elder from Ptolemaic Egyptian court, Magas of Cyrene (modern day Libya), Alexander II of Epirus, etc. all mention Ashoka's brilliant social reforms and governance.

I would much rather go with Freedom Fighters, Sports figure, Business Person and like that.

Fair enough. You have a different perspective but in my opinion, leaders of men should be measured in the realm of politics- as shady as it is, there are the occasional gems like Ashoka, Wu, Kurash, etc etc.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? Some of Ashoka's remarkable achievements: 1. Brutally killed all his brothers including the eldest righful heir Susima to gain ascendancy to the throne. As a result was called Chanda Ashoka. 2. Over the next eight years he expanded his empire using brutality which mankind had never witnessed . His brutal conquest stretched from present-day Bangladesh in the east to what is now Iran and Afghanistan in the west to parts of south. 2. As if this was not enuf, his brutal conquest culminated in Kalinga killing thousands of people.Kalinga was the most democratic parliamentary and one of the more prosperous kingdom during that time and his savagery ruined it. 3. Even Buddhist Scripts paint a gory picture of his sadistic activities during his time as Chanda Ashoka. 4. Even Queen Devi, who was a Buddhist, had brought up her children in that faith, and apparently left Ashoka after she saw the horrors of Kalinga. 5. Their is a belief that he even his killed his own best friend Vitashoka, In fact , the hindi movie Ashoka by sivan depicts him doing that. 6. Tried to destroy Hindusim by spreading his religion which is buddhism. 7. Was partial to Buddhist subjects even though his court had lot of Hindus including his general Pushyamitra. So I don't see why anyone with half a brain would not question the wisdom behind the selection of Ashoka as the person who influenced him/her the most especially considering Ashoka's checkered life.

[CC1981]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

1. Brutally killed all his brothers including the eldest righful heir Susima to gain ascendancy to the throne.

IMO, he should've killed Sushima earlier. Not a pleasant guy- super jealous, super incompetent and specializing in sitting in his palace and toking up with chicks while his city burns... all the while taxing the hell out of his public.Hence Ashoka was sent to Purushapura to quell uprising right under Sushima's nose by Bimbisara ( their dad)

2. Over the next eight years he expanded his empire using brutality which mankind had never witnessed . His brutal conquest stretched from present-day Bangladesh in the east to what is now Iran and Afghanistan in the west to parts of south.

False really. Ashoka's conquests were in Kalinga essentially and extending the frontier south to the Cauvery. Iran,Afghanistan were acquired by Chandragupta Maurya and Bengal is the heartland of the Magadhi empire from far earlier ( the Nanda dynasty) along with Bihar. Most of Ashoka's fighting was actually beating back invasion and quelling uprising in the newly acquired(ie, in the last 50-75 years) territorry in Afghanistan. As per brutality mankind never witnessed- i gotto laugh at that. I wonder if you just cooked that up because of your disregard for the northies/non-hindu rulers in India. Ashoka didnt engage in questionable warfare in Kalinga where he burnt cities or towns and butchered the population. Kalinga fought valiantly and sent almost all their menfolk to war and Ashoka simply absorbed every man Kalinga threw at him and still marched forward(Though at great cost to his own army too). He was actually moved by suffering when he went in kalinga to see the land he captured and found cities with lots of women, young, old and the sick with most menfolk of prime age dead or injured. Alexander's butchering of the Ashwinis was far far worse than Ashoka's butchery of Kalinga. The Ashwinis were wiped out from history. The Kalingans atleast, survived. That is just one example of what really is brutality far superseeding any Ashoka ever unleashed.

6. Tried to destroy Hindusim by spreading his religion which is buddhism.

People preferred his class-less religion over the cast-dominated hinduism. Buddhism was not spread aggressively in India-it spread through popular choice. This fact is not just confirmed in indian literature but also in foreign literature of those times-of which not all sources are buddhist.

7. Was partial to Buddhist subjects even though his court had lot of Hindus including his general Pushyamitra.

False. Ashoka's edict pronounces all of his subjects to be equal regardless of caste or creed. Ie, favouritism of buddhist is a baseless accusation when it is categorically recorded-by him and others- that he was the first truly secular emperor of India. Oh and his court did not have Pushyamitra. Had Pushyamitra been in his court, he'd probably never had the chance to butcher buddhists and overthrowing one of the greatest empires mankind has known (the mauryan empire). But the reason Pushyamitra was not in Ashoka's court is simple : The Mauryan dynasty ended just about 50 years after Ashoka's death. Pushyamitra would've been a old toothless geriatric if he was even a peon in Ashoka's court 50 years later, let alone a general.

So I don't see why anyone with half a brain would not question the wisdom behind the selection of Ashoka as the person who influenced him/her the most especially considering Ashoka's checkered life.

More like checkered childhood. The guy straightened out in his 20s. Sounds about normal for many many people. And his accomplishments in the next 40 years of his life overshadows every single king and emperor of india quite comprehensively. And as i said, anyone with half a brain wouldnt discount the remarkable accomplishments of a person for 40 years of his life based on his misjudgements in youth. When your older brother tries to murder you for no reason ( or simply because he is incompetent and you are super-competent and he is insecure), it is quite understandable in my opinion to go Chandasoka. What is remarkable is that he is pretty much the ONLY ruler of power who's turned back from the Chanda phase to the Dharma phase. And its funny to see Indians tearing down their own i guess because of religious and sectarian (in this case southie-bias) causes. Funny because the idea that Ashoka is by far the greatest indian leader of pre-modern times is a view taken by just about the entire Indian, western and Eastern scholarship.

[sandtest]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? ^^^...Your above points may be true..... But Ashok Chakra in our Tiranga Jhanda acknowldges the greatness of Samrat Ashoka Anyway, I am wondering why Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak is not included in the list. My Favorite --- 1. Chhatrapati Shivaji Bhonsle 2. Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak 3. Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel After British Raj 1. Madhav Sadashivrao Golwalkar

[The Outsider]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? My pick would be Buddha from the past eras and Gandhi from the modern era.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced?

1. Brutally killed all his brothers including the eldest righful heir Susima to gain ascendancy to the throne.

IMO, he should've killed Sushima earlier. Not a pleasant guy- super jealous, super incompetent and specializing in sitting in his palace and toking up with chicks while his city burns... all the while taxing the hell out of his public.Hence Ashoka was sent to Purushapura to quell uprising right under Sushima's nose by Bimbisara ( their dad)

2. Over the next eight years he expanded his empire using brutality which mankind had never witnessed . His brutal conquest stretched from present-day Bangladesh in the east to what is now Iran and Afghanistan in the west to parts of south.

False really. Ashoka's conquests were in Kalinga essentially and extending the frontier south to the Cauvery. Iran,Afghanistan were acquired by Chandragupta Maurya and Bengal is the heartland of the Magadhi empire from far earlier ( the Nanda dynasty) along with Bihar. Most of Ashoka's fighting was actually beating back invasion and quelling uprising in the newly acquired(ie, in the last 50-75 years) territorry in Afghanistan. As per brutality mankind never witnessed- i gotto laugh at that. I wonder if you just cooked that up because of your disregard for the northies/non-hindu rulers in India. Ashoka didnt engage in questionable warfare in Kalinga where he burnt cities or towns and butchered the population. Kalinga fought valiantly and sent almost all their menfolk to war and Ashoka simply absorbed every man Kalinga threw at him and still marched forward(Though at great cost to his own army too). He was actually moved by suffering when he went in kalinga to see the land he captured and found cities with lots of women, young, old and the sick with most menfolk of prime age dead or injured. Alexander's butchering of the Ashwinis was far far worse than Ashoka's butchery of Kalinga. The Ashwinis were wiped out from history. The Kalingans atleast, survived. That is just one example of what really is brutality far superseeding any Ashoka ever unleashed.

6. Tried to destroy Hindusim by spreading his religion which is buddhism.

People preferred his class-less religion over the cast-dominated hinduism. Buddhism was not spread aggressively in India-it spread through popular choice. This fact is not just confirmed in indian literature but also in foreign literature of those times-of which not all sources are buddhist.

7. Was partial to Buddhist subjects even though his court had lot of Hindus including his general Pushyamitra.

False. Ashoka's edict pronounces all of his subjects to be equal regardless of caste or creed. Ie, favouritism of buddhist is a baseless accusation when it is categorically recorded-by him and others- that he was the first truly secular emperor of India. Oh and his court did not have Pushyamitra. Had Pushyamitra been in his court, he'd probably never had the chance to butcher buddhists and overthrowing one of the greatest empires mankind has known (the mauryan empire). But the reason Pushyamitra was not in Ashoka's court is simple : The Mauryan dynasty ended just about 50 years after Ashoka's death. Pushyamitra would've been a old toothless geriatric if he was even a peon in Ashoka's court 50 years later, let alone a general.

So I don't see why anyone with half a brain would not question the wisdom behind the selection of Ashoka as the person who influenced him/her the most especially considering Ashoka's checkered life.

More like checkered childhood. The guy straightened out in his 20s. Sounds about normal for many many people. And his accomplishments in the next 40 years of his life overshadows every single king and emperor of india quite comprehensively. And as i said, anyone with half a brain wouldnt discount the remarkable accomplishments of a person for 40 years of his life based on his misjudgements in youth. When your older brother tries to murder you for no reason ( or simply because he is incompetent and you are super-competent and he is insecure), it is quite understandable in my opinion to go Chandasoka. What is remarkable is that he is pretty much the ONLY ruler of power who's turned back from the Chanda phase to the Dharma phase. And its funny to see Indians tearing down their own i guess because of religious and sectarian (in this case southie-bias) causes. Funny because the idea that Ashoka is by far the greatest indian leader of pre-modern times is a view taken by just about the entire Indian, western and Eastern scholarship.

The embarrassed kid twists ! And it is more funny to see Indians choosing their greatest leader on religious lines. Even GKD pointed the same thing. I don't want this thread hijacked anymore. So , I am gonna ignore your gibberish.

[head coach]

Re: Who is greatest leader India ever produced? Greatest Leader India Produced? Gandhi period. No questions asked.