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Anyone interested? Where's this Iraq "thing" heading to? You hear various parties talking about the political solution as the only hope but then Iraqi parliament is going on vacation while American soldiers give their life to return the country to normalcy. What a mess...

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Re: American Politics Thread Used to be interested a lot before. Now, could care less ! Both parties suck.

Iraqi parliament is going on vacation while American soldiers give their life to return the country to normalcy.
Jesus, can you count the number of times our village idiot took vacation in crawford,texas. And big Di.ck is still busy hunting ducks.
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Re: American Politics Thread

The only one with some real guts is Gravel' date=' but he won't win obviously.[/quote'] Anakin you saying about 2008. I get a feeling Hillary Clinton would get the Democratic nomination and would run with Obama as VP running against McCain What you guys say?
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Re: American Politics Thread Hi HC, Yeah, you have the right idea in making American politics largely a function of the Iraq situation. That war, above all else, will define the Bush presidency and it is the litmus test voters will use (and already have used in the recent Mid-term Congressional elections) to make their voting decision. For Clinton, it was "The Economy Stupid" and for us today it's: "Iraq Stupid." The problem with Iraq is the power vacuum. There bascially is no political trust between various factions and militias and the physical violence that breaks out traps the American soilder in the middle. I can tell you that Americans of all stripes are getting very fed up with this chosen war and do want to see some kind of end. The political candidate that can provide the best hope for Americans losing fewer of their boys and girls and yet not push for a full pull-out immediately will probably have the best chance for winning the Presidental election. I can't really say where Iraq is heading. I have absolutely no idea why the Parliament going "on vacation" for 2 months--but just remember, ... things are not what they seem. Maybe something will go on during the "vacation." The violence in Iraq has got to stop sometime and some kind of federal organization will probably emerge. People say that Iraq can be divided into 3 countries because each region has a majority of one of Iraq's three major ethnicities, but they ignore the fact in the cities of Iraq ALL major groups of Iraqis live together and even inter-marry to a great degree. So maybe you can make al Anbar province a country and Kurdistan a separate country, but you can't divide Baghdad or any other major city because they are far too hetergeneous. I think Iraq will stay status quo and that the next American presidential election will be a doosey!!!! After that, God knows what'll happen.

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Re: American Politics Thread

Anyone interested? Where's this Iraq "thing" heading to? You hear various parties talking about the political solution as the only hope but then Iraqi parliament is going on vacation while American soldiers give their life to return the country to normalcy. What a mess...
HC, The Iraqi situation has two angles. One is the angle about Iraq, other is the American angle. Unfortunately both of these are a mess as we speak. Speaking specifically about American angle(since that is more pertinent to this thread) I must say that I am one of those who did support Bush in going into Iraq in the first place. My reasoning is rather simple. Middle East is a mess and it affects entire world and we need to fix it. Of course now people like me have been made to look like a complete idiots. It would have perhaps been much better had I been a oil hungry Republican instead. What is worse is that even today right wing America is in denial that Iraq is a mess. How many times do we hear, "If you criticize war you criticize the soldiers". The war has frankly not helped any american. The gas prices are on their way to touch 4 $ in USA, the important issues like immigration has been pushed on the back burner, Security things like Airport etc etc have become such a hassle that people have started avoiding Air transport, and people working on visa are now on their toes to make sure they send their papers on time to get extension/renewals, a far cry from the days(only 5-6 years back really) when life was so much easier. And to top that Republicans have the gall to use the world "Liberal" everyday as if it was the greatest abuse in the world, not very different to what many right wing Indians using the terms Secs and Psecs. In a nutshell Republican US is responsible for the Iraqi mess and in all probablity would be voted out in this election. Whoever is the leading Republican Presidential candidate he stands little chance of getting elected me thinks. xxxx
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Hi HC, Yeah, you have the right idea in making American politics largely a function of the Iraq situation. That war, above all else, will define the Bush presidency and it is the litmus test voters will use (and already have used in the recent Mid-term Congressional elections) to make their voting decision. For Clinton, it was "The Economy Stupid" and for us today it's: "Iraq Stupid." The problem with Iraq is the power vacuum. There bascially is no political trust between various factions and militias and the physical violence that breaks out traps the American soilder in the middle. I can tell you that Americans of all stripes are getting very fed up with this chosen war and do want to see some kind of end. The political candidate that can provide the best hope for Americans losing fewer of their boys and girls and yet not push for a full pull-out immediately will probably have the best chance for winning the Presidental election. I can't really say where Iraq is heading. I have absolutely no idea why the Parliament going "on vacation" for 2 months--but just remember, ... things are not what they seem. Maybe something will go on during the "vacation." The violence in Iraq has got to stop sometime and some kind of federal organization will probably emerge. People say that Iraq can be divided into 3 countries because each region has a majority of one of Iraq's three major ethnicities, but they ignore the fact in the cities of Iraq ALL major groups of Iraqis live together and even inter-marry to a great degree. So maybe you can make al Anbar province a country and Kurdistan a separate country, but you can't divide Baghdad or any other major city because they are far too hetergeneous. I think Iraq will stay status quo and that the next American presidential election will be a doosey!!!! After that, God knows what'll happen.
Zooter, good post. But 350 billion has aleady been spent and precious lives are being lost every day. And experts predict 700 billion in 10 years if this continues. More than enough for fixing some of the domestic issues like health care and Social security or feeding poor in Africa and Asia. All these talk about troop surge and how it's gonna change the course is purely up in the air. If the commander in the ground sees improvement I say give another 4-5 months to see a drastic change in the level of security. Without attaching strings or benchmarks giving a blank check to continue this indefenitely will be a big mistake. Give the power back into the hands of Iraqi let them deal with it.
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Re: American Politics Thread The surge is America's last ditch effort at trying to create a permanent end to hostilities (or at least tacitly accepting a lower level of violence ad infinitum) in order for a political process to take effect. If it doesn't work, even the neo-cons who planned this war like Richard Pearle, Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Adelman, and everyone else at AEI or who co-authored the "Project for the New American Century" are publicly recommending an American withdrawal. And that's exactly what's gonna happen, methinks. I don't think a damn thing will change in the next 4-5 months. (People have been saying this for 4 years now ... "in 6 months X will happen," "in 5 months, a new election will create peace", etc. etc. etc.). The Iraqi civil war will continue, but all wars have an end and the country will move on.

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Re: American Politics Thread

The surge is America's last ditch effort at trying to create a permanent end to hostilities (or at least tacitly accepting a lower level of violence ad infinitum) in order for a political process to take effect. If it doesn't work, even the neo-cons who planned this war like Richard Pearle, Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Adelman, and everyone else at AEI or who co-authored the "Project for the New American Century" are publicly recommending an American withdrawal. And that's exactly what's gonna happen, methinks. I don't think a damn thing will change in the next 4-5 months. (People have been saying this for 4 years now ... "in 6 months X will happen," "in 5 months, a new election will create peace", etc. etc. etc.). The Iraqi civil war will continue, but all wars have an end and the country will move on.
Its simple Iraqis dont know what Democracy is they dont get it. It is not for them. period. And Bush/Cheney just dont get this fact either. Wolfowitz, the guy who fights ethic problem...He's gonna be kicked out of the Bank. Friday is the deadline to respond and justify his action.
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Re: American Politics Thread It's not the fault of the Iraqis. 40% of Indians can't even read. They need time to come into their own. The professional class of Iraq (more than 2 million people have left!), and those remaining just aren't modern enough. I feel so horrible for the Iraqis. So many innocent civilians have died, ... they never asked for this war, ... Sadaam for 3 decades, and now they're expected to create a phucking Jeffersonian democracy. Just horrible.

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Re: American Politics Thread Iraq war was wrong from the very beginning and now is a lost cause. I hope Hillary won't run eventually, Americans are not ready to vote for BOTH black and woman. I wanna see Obama/Edwards or Obama/Gravel for 08. The best would be Gore/Obama, but probably won't happen.

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Re: American Politics Thread

Speaking specifically about American angle(since that is more pertinent to this thread) I must say that I am one of those who did support Bush in going into Iraq in the first place. My reasoning is rather simple. Middle East is a mess and it affects entire world and we need to fix it. Of course now people like me have been made to look like a complete idiots.
Good to know that you are honestly admitting that you supported this fake war before. I was always against this war. Their was no justification for this war in the first place. We blame islamic countries for lot of sh.it and rightly so . But , they have been victims too. Atleast a million civilians have been lost needlessly in this senseless war. And for what ?. I can sense Vietnam all over again. Looks like Bush and Cheney were playing Russian roulette in a drunken stupor and unfortunately , Iraq was the country the needle pointed to for their fake liberation. It was and will always be an illegitimate war because UN never gave sanction explicitly. They had no WMD's which would be triggered in 45 minutes as claimed. They circumvented the UN inspectors Hans Bliz and Kofi Annan for staging this war. My only beef with american people is, how can they support the war in the first place and then oppose it later. You can't have it both ways. Keep in mind , that in 2003 , their was 70 % approval rating for this war among the public. Now , the same public are against the war ?. This is the same public which voted him back to power in Nov 2004 when things were deteriorating in Iraq .It was clear by then , that this war was staged. You can't cut and run once you are already in it. It has to be phased withdrawal lasting 2 years. The only solution to this war as I far as I can see is , forget Baghdad, move all your troops to Basra in the south and Kurdistan in the north . True american interests , which is the vast Oil reserves are anyway here. Let Shia and Sunni battle among themselves in Baghdad for all we care ( I know it sounds harsh). It's happening in Darfur already and nobody cares anyway.
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Re: American Politics Thread

Speaking specifically about American angle(since that is more pertinent to this thread) I must say that I am one of those who did support Bush in going into Iraq in the first place. My reasoning is rather simple. Middle East is a mess and it affects entire world and we need to fix it. Of course now people like me have been made to look like a complete idiots.
Good to know that you are honestly admitting that you supported this fake war before. I was always against this war. Their was no justification for this war in the first place. We blame islamic countries for lot of sh.it and rightly so . But , they have been victims too. Atleast a million civilians have been lost needlessly in this senseless war. And for what ?. I can sense Vietnam all over again. Looks like Bush and Cheney were playing Russian roulette in a drunken stupor and unfortunately , Iraq was the country the needle pointed to for their fake liberation. It was and will always be an illegitimate war because UN never gave sanction explicitly. They had no WMD's which would be triggered in 45 minutes as claimed. They circumvented the UN inspectors Hans Bliz and Kofi Annan for staging this war. My only beef with american people is, how can they support the war in the first place and then oppose it later. You can't have it both ways. Keep in mind , that in 2003 , their was 70 % approval rating for this war among the public. Now , the same public are against the war ?. This is the same public which voted him back to power in Nov 2004 when things were deteriorating in Iraq .It was clear by then , that this war was staged. You can't cut and run once you are already in it. It has to be phased withdrawal lasting 2 years. The only solution to this war as I far as I can see is , forget Baghdad, move all your troops to Basra in the south and Kurdistan in the north . True american interests , which is the vast Oil reserves are anyway here. Let Shia and Sunni battle among themselves in Baghdad for all we care ( I know it sounds harsh). It's happening in Darfur already and nobody cares anyway.
Well Lurker, KR, not joining the chorus but I was also supportive of Iraq war because if it worked out the way they envisioned it would have raised the living standards of people who were suppressed for years under the dictator. But I think the failure occured when there was no post war strategy in place. US completely missed the target when high scale of looting and lawlessness prevailed in the country right after Saddam was removed. From that point US lost the war. An Ideal strategy would have been a coup orchestrated with US support and installing a defector who returned back to the country but it never happenned that way and US was left clueless in midst of the raging groups. Lets say they didnt read the history too well. That simple.
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Re: American Politics Thread

I just hope to God that Giuliani doesn't get it. That will be end of the world..
Why ?
Cause he's further to the right than any other Republican. If you thought American involvement in Iraq is/was a complete clusterfcuk, just wait what Giuliani will do.
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Cause he's further to the right than any other Republican.
:eek: Are you kidding ? What on earth makes you think this guy is a far right winger ?
With respect to foreign policy Pred., not his personal life. Personally, he's a cross-dresser, has had multiple marriages, etc. I mean he's the type of guy who blindly supports pre-emptive war, curtailing civil liberties, etc. Everyone's scared that the next war might be with Iran. Trust me, Giuliani will be gung ho for it.
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An Ideal strategy would have been a coup orchestrated with US support and installing a defector who returned back to the country but it never happenned that way and US was left clueless in midst of the raging groups.
They had Chalabi in their mind just like Karzai in Afghanisation to fill in that role. It only turned out later that Ahmed Chalabi could not be trusted and he had actually back stabbed the americans. Keep in mind the reliable source for the CIA and alleged WMD's in Iraq was Chalabi's brother whose codename was "Curveball" . "Curveball" fed hundreds of pages of bogus "firsthand" descriptions of mobile biological weapons factories on wheels and rails. This Chalabi clan actually pulled a coop by convincing CIA that Iraq had WMD's. In fact he is is also wanted for massive bank fraud in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. US has failed to answer to the world , why it was necessary to attack Iraq and liberate it's people and not some other country like Burma which also has despotic dictators. Me thinks Oil rules and nothing else matters. At least for the right wingers in USA. It's become more of a curse than boon for middle east citizens. Case in point , countries like Jordan or Turkey which do not have oil and which are much more stable.
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