Why cant there be another Bradman again??

[pensionplan]

Things have come a full circle. The myth has been busted. It is real comforting to finally know that Akash Chopra (I pronoune it as Chopada - not that it matters to others) is after all much better than Donald Bradman. It took a bunch of folks that can easily relate to my moniker to take the pains to prove that with some real spoof I mean proof. Damn it, I almost goofed up there (confusing spoof with proof).

[zen]

This is one more myth which cricket romantics keep falling on that Batsmen of old era had to go without any protective gear. Just want to know if there was any rule to stop players in that era from wearing protective gear? If there was no such rule then I'll assume that players of pre-70's era did not wear protective gear because they did not need one. Above video clipping has further confirmed this notion. As soon as real fast bowling arrived in 70's, batsmen quickly resorted to protective gears like helmets. So if you really want to give pat on the back of batsmen for standing up to fast bowling without helmets, then deserving candidates are likes of Richards, Gavaskar, Chappells only, not batsmen from pre-70 era. At times, I wonder why bodyline was such a big issue in that time. Looks like at that time underlying assumption simply was you can not/should not get a wicket through intimidatory tactics even if it is within rules of book. Compare this with current era's fast bowlers for whom intimidation seems to be their first weapon and then come swing and seam. I am inclined to think that if bodyline had occured in today's era, it would not have raised eyebrows any deeper than what Ashley Giles negative bowling outside leg stump or Dhoni's 8-1 field placement do.

I don't understand what you are trying to imply! Wearing protective gear has nothing to do with the rule, your point is probably like saying that since airbags weren't available in the past they were not needed! I don't get the point of when real fast bowling arrived as there is hardly any real fast bowling in Indian domestic matches but batsmen do wear protective gear when they face fast bowlers. It's not about patting the batsman of the past era for not wearing protective gear too! The simple fact that when a batsman has protective gear on he has more option and his shot selection improves too when facing pace bowling. Without the helmet for example, he has to be in absolutely good position to say hook/pull to avoid any injuries (at least from the psychological PoV). When you have the protective gear on, you give your self more chances of not getting hurt like say from the ball that could clip the edge of the bat and hit the face. Also the points are made in relation to more sledging affects the avg today, while factors like protective gear are totally ignored! You also have to judge what happened in Bodyline with respect to that time (also taking in to account the lack of protective gear in that era). The game has evolved now to let such factors have the same effect. To give an example, earlier people were afraid to get out of their homes at night but now the cities are awake 24/7. So would it mean that why people in the past made a big fuss about say traveling at night? No offense but I don't think you are bringing anything positive/new to the discussion.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[zen]

Fast bowling such as this ( check out Sir Gubby Allen @ 00:39 ) ---> http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=12289 Or This : http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=27287 Or This : http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=31056 What benefit is there in wearing a helmet to these guys some of whom were not much faster than Anil Kumble and the keeper stands up to them most times ? Meanwhile what benefit did RD have while facing the thunder bolts from the migthy fast bowler otherwise known as Shahadat Hossain on the lightning fast pitches of Banglaland ... last time I checked he ended up in the hospital ? Cue : Smilie barrage and rhetorics.

But sledging has an effect on today's batting :giggle: Anyways, I don't know why you try to ask for an answer when it is already in the post that you picked the line out? I did say that helmets give that psychological advantage to a batman making him feel comfortable and thus giving him more options! (including giving an example of batsman wearing helmets to bowlers on dead pitches in Indian domestic cricket) If you know your cricket then you should know what it means :winky: The RD example that you gave is exactly what I meant by saying that wearing a helmet gives the batsman of today more options. He is more comfortable with evaluating the options that he has on a ball. If a batsman didn't wear a helmet, he would just be looking to let the ball go unless he is able to get himself in to the best position to dispatch the ball. Also with the advancement in protective gear, a batsman can use his body as a shield to negate a steep ball thus preventing him from getting out. Getting hurt now and then has little to do with what helmets can do. Your point is a keen to saying that people still die in car crash despite the airbags, ignoring that it is these modern safety features that makes a driver try different things (including pushing it further) and thus increasing the chances of error. Like airbags, helmets by themselves don't guarantee the safety. By now it must be clear of that I consider many of "Tendulkar is the greatest" folks to be amongst some of the dumbest people around and such points by you only goes on to vindicate that statement more and more. Was it so difficult to put 2+2 together in my last post that you had to go around looking for videos to make a point which is not even a point. Or is that you only have a few parameters to discuss and so you use them for anything that even gives you a hint of being able to use them w/o putting 2+2 together! :hysterical:

[zen]

Since it's Sunday, I will write a bit more on this subject by drawing parallels: Let's look in to this hypothetical scenario in car racing. Let's assume: *Circuit: Nuremberg Ring *Time taken by top racers like Hammond, Headley and Hutton in 1930s-50s to finish a lap: 20 mins (in an era of old cars, crappy handling and stopping power, less safety features and so on) *Time taken by today's top racers like Tendulkar and Lara to finish a lap: 18 mins (2 mins less based on the argument of them having faced better bowlers, fielders, etc, along with access to better training and coaching which translates in to better handling and braking power, safer and efficient cars) *Time taken by Bradman to finish a lap in 1930s-50s: 16 mins The pro-Ten points mainly tend to focus on running down the Bradman's era (as it's not possible to show Ten>Don based on most other aspects). So it's all about how the racers were not that professional, how there wasn't much competition and so on. But like most things, running down someone doesn't make the others better. It's probably like you draw a 5 cms line and then try erase parts of a 7 cms line to show that your 5 cms line is longer Ki9fDmBTX7w&feature=related ySJ6i2am5Js&feature=related Looking at those videos above, i won't be surprised if many come to a conclusion like "even I can drive better" :P

[Raghav_12]

I don't understand what you are trying to imply! Wearing protective gear has nothing to do with the rule' date='

your point is probably like saying that since airbags weren't available in the past they were not needed!

That is whole point that. Airbags were not really needed when car speeds were in order of 40-50 kmph. But as soon as car speeds became high, people started using airbags. Protective gears are not invented/used unless they are required. And top of that helmets were not that difficult concept as airbags. Tradition of helmet started by somebody started putting on bike helmet.

I don't get the point of when real fast bowling arrived as there is hardly any real fast bowling in Indian domestic matches but batsmen do wear protective gear when they face fast bowlers. It's not about patting the batsman of the past era for not wearing protective gear too! The simple fact that when a batsman has protective gear on he has more option and his shot selection improves too when facing pace bowling. Without the helmet for example, he has to be in absolutely good position to say hook/pull to avoid any injuries (at least from the psychological PoV). When you have the protective gear on, you give your self more chances of not getting hurt like say from the ball that could clip the edge of the bat and hit the face.

No doubt I agree with your point. Helmet really helps to play your shots better but only in situation when you see some possibility of getting hit in your face or so. But if you know that such possibility doesn't exist (as was case in 30's), then helmet would not be a help, rather an irritation. Haven't you seen most batsmen get rid of helmet as soon as spinners arrive?

You also have to judge what happened in Bodyline with respect to that time (also taking in to account the lack of protective gear in that era). The game has evolved now to let such factors have the same effect. To give an example, earlier people were afraid to get out of their homes at night but now the cities are awake 24/7. So would it mean that why people in the past made a big fuss about say traveling at night?

I really did not get this analogy. I used that example to highlight the fact that short/dangerous bowling wasn't an allowed thing in that time, all fuss about bodyline just vindicates this fact and that's why batsmen did not think of using protective gears. No point in giving those batsmen some brownie points on that account.

No offense but I don't think you are bringing anything positive/new to the discussion.

I still think Bradman was a greater batman but some myths which are used to show superiority of batsman from that era are pure exaggerations, fueled by romanticism for past.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[zen]

That is whole point that. Airbags were not really needed when car speeds were in order of 40-50 kmph. But as soon as car speeds became high, people started using airbags. Protective gears are not invented/used unless they are required. And top of that helmets were not that difficult concept as airbags. Tradition of helmet started by somebody started putting on bike helmet. No doubt I agree with your point. Helmet really helps to play your shots better but only in situation when you see some possibility of getting hit in your face or so. But if you know that such possibility doesn't exist (as was case in 30's), then helmet would not be a help, rather an irritation. Haven't you seen most batsmen get rid of helmet as soon as spinners arrive? I really did not get this analogy. I used that example to highlight the fact that short/dangerous bowling wasn't an allowed thing in that time, all fuss about bodyline just vindicates this fact and that's why batsmen did not think of using protective gears. No point in giving those batsmen some brownie points on that account. I still think Bradman was a greater batman but there were some myths which are used to show superiority of batsman from that era are pure exaggerations fueled, by romanticism for past.

Not really, as if you drive a car w/ sloppy handling and braking you have more chances to get hit. if airbags, along with seat belts, were invented in that era they would put that on :winky: We are not talking abt spinners, aren't we? Hope, you are not amongst those who think that Larwood, Md Nissar and company (bowlers of that era) were as fast as spineers of today, esp when the likes of Md Nissar are considered amongst the fastest bowlers Ind has ever produced (Leave that point for the dumbasses to make :P) Already explained it's not abt courage!

[zen]

You think only you can hurl insults around ? And I consider the "DGB > everyone including those that are yet to play" as the most asinine dumbasses born backwards which is why the videos were needed. Looks like underestimated your dumbness ... not even video footage will cure your blind fanatical obsession with everything that is old. And ? ohh wait I forgot the fkin smilie here --> :cantstop:

So you thought videos would show that those who played cricket in that era weren't that good, great! what else? :hysterical:

[zen]

VPrcWaQAEYo&feature=related m8lfKm0NRnQ&feature=related ^ does that show batting in that era was easy? I guess the video also show how slow Lillee is :P m5WjwmO8lAA&feature=related And I would guess the above video shows that Tendulkar is a great spinner! :icflove:

[Sachinism]

Not really, as if you drive a car w/ sloppy handling and braking you have more chances to get hit. if airbags, along with seat belts, were invented in that era they would put that on :winky: We are not talking abt spinners, aren't we? Hope, you are not amongst those who think that Larwood, Md Nissar and company (bowlers of that era) were as fast as spineers of today, esp when the likes of Md Nissar are considered amongst the fastest bowlers Ind has ever produced (Leave that point for the dumbasses to make :P) Already explained it's not abt courage!

So what if he's considered the fastest bowler for India ever? Who's opinion is this? The same people who said Bedser is fast? If you still feel he's rapid after watching those vids, you're just being dishonest

[Raghav_12]

Not really, as if you drive a car w/ sloppy handling and braking you have more chances to get hit. if airbags, along with seat belts, were invented in that era they would put that on :winky: We are not talking abt spinners, aren't we? Hope, you are not amongst those who think that Larwood, Md Nissar and company (bowlers of that era) were as fast as spineers of today, esp when the likes of Md Nissar are considered amongst the fastest bowlers Ind has ever produced (Leave that point for the dumbasses to make :P) Already explained it's not abt courage!

Airbags example was used to show that inventions are not made unless necessitated by circumstances. I know that Md Nissar had reputation of being very fast. But that reputation was made based on claims of persons from that era - so I am not really sure how fast he really was in today's perspective. The kind of amateurish look cricket had in those days, I think if he was dangerously fast, he wouldn't have been allowed to bowl much as was the case for Larwood. Based on video's we have seen, I don't think even fastest of the that time would have been any way near to 90 mph.

[zen]

So what if he's considered the fastest bowler for India ever? Who's opinion is this? The same people who said Bedser is fast? If you still feel he's rapid after watching those vids, you're just being dishonest

I didn't say Nissar is the fastest bowler Ind produced, but said that he is amongst the fastest! Unless, you think a hemlet wouldn't help when playing Nissar, what's the point of your post?

[zen]

Airbags example was used to show that inventions are not made unless necessitated by circumstances. I know that Md Nissar had reputation of being very fast. But that reputation was made based on claims of persons from that era - so I am not really sure how fast he really was in today's perspective. The kind of amateurish look cricket had in those days, I think if he was dangerously fast, he wouldn't have been allowed to bowl much as was the case for Larwood. Based on video's we have seen, I don't think even fastest of the that time would have been any way near to 90 mph.

Not really, as at times innovation are limited due to technological limitations too. So are you implying that people in future people not judge the likes of Tendulkar on what's said of them today? And don't go by those videos as the standard of video in those days was not the same as it is now. To put things into perspective, see how slow Lillee looks compared to some of the bowlers of today in that video. And how many 90 mph bowlers we have today, on top of that there is also this speed vs other factors debate.

[Sachinism]

I didn't say Nissar is the fastest bowler Ind produced, but said that he is amongst the fastest! Unless, you think a hemlet wouldn't help when playing Nissar, what's the point of your post?

Well considering we don't really know how fast he was, what makes you sure a helmet would even be required? Another thing - wearing a helmet does not reduce the chances of getting hit and therefore the fear of getting hit is still there. I think that does make a difference on how you play the ball, because at the end of the day whether you have protection or not you don't want to get hit. Also whether you agree or wearing a helmet isn't the most comfortable thing to have on your head when batting

[zen]

Well considering we don't really know how fast he was, what makes you sure a helmet would even be required? Another thing - wearing a helmet does not reduce the chances of getting hit and therefore the fear of getting hit is still there. I think that does make a difference on how you play the ball, because at the end of the day whether you have protection or not you don't want to get hit. Also whether you agree or wearing a helmet isn't the most comfortable thing to have on your head when batting

We know he was quick! I think I have said quite a bit in post 204 and 206 on this page on helmets and protective gear. Even wearing a sweater is that comfortable for many

[The Outsider]

So what if he's considered the fastest bowler for India ever? Who's opinion is this? The same people who said Bedser is fast? If you still feel he's rapid after watching those vids, you're just being dishonest

If you are going to form your own false notions, like people consider Bedser fast, and then use video to contradict those false notions not much can be done. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1033175&postcount=25 is the most comprehensive post on Bedser by SJS on ICF. Can you see where Bedser is called as some speed demon? You can also read his cricinfo profile, no where is Bedser considered a genuine quick bowler. Most of his comparisons are with Barnes, again not a genuine quick. In fact in one of the videos the commentary specifically mentions that Bedser is going to be replaced by 'the faster men'. No one claimed Bedser to be fast, so what exactly have the videos proved or disproved?

[King Tendulkar]

I repeat my question which you have not answered. Any comments on the video clips of the great players you hyped up? What do you think of their technique and standard of cricket in the videos?

Any chance of an answer?

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[zen]

What's the deal with trying to show most things from Bradman era to be not that good? Even if Bradman had an avg of 60 (instead of 100), it would still not mean that Tendulkar is the greatest! The concept that the some fans have about making Tendulkar the greatest is non-starter in the first place because there are so many batsmen who are equally good. May be they think it's a simple equation where if Bradman achievements are shown to be not what they appear then Tendulkar automatically becomes the greatest :giggle: If there is no Bradman then the concept for who the greatest batsman is doesn't exist, just like there is no concept for the greatest pace bowler as the top pacers are in the same league. Without Bradman, who the best batsman is from a bunch of equally talented batsmen depends upon your opinion :winky: PS 4SzfWtTZOtA Sir Gary Sobers