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ravishingravi

Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

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Why fake the 'unbiased' view in first two paras? Finals is not the only imp match in the tourney. Sachin's record in tourney's involving more than 3 teams is unparalleled. That does not mean I am claiming Sachin >>>> Viv or otherway round. I am just pointing out the non-sense about - Sachin fails in 'finals', 'clutch' matches/situations and all that similar crap.
Someone can even argue that in tourneys where there are more than 2 teams involved, the chances of doing well against weaker teams increases :winky: And if someone is picking b/w two greats players, he has to see how they have done in important games, no? Or is that everything is suppose to go for Sachin and against the other player :giggle:

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Didn't you agree that the standards were all crap in Bradman's times ? :laugh:
You forgot the part about evolution and how things do progressively get better over time in all aspects of life, which in itself doesn't diminish achievements of the past, on how you can't expect someone from 100 years ago to have done the same against the bowling of today without also considering how someone who is from today would have performed 100 years ago being born then with the coaching available then, yada yada yada. :winky:

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Someone can even argue that in tourneys where there are more than 2 teams involved, the chances of doing well against weaker teams increases :winky: And if someone is picking b/w two greats players, he has to see how they have done in important games, no? Or is that everything is suppose to go for Sachin and against the other player :giggle:
yea right. thanks for reminding. e.g. WC2011.. England and SA were the only minnows, and pak was next worst (having reached the semis).

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Viv's swagger was unparalleled' date=' but Sachin has achieved so much that its nearly impossible to rate any batsman conclusively higher than him.[/quote'] Your post is a voice of reason here. In my opinion, swagger is over-rated. Aamir Sohail had swagger ... see where it got him. More to the point - Before we compare Tendulkar and Richards, one must come up with specific criteria upon which you want to base the comparison. (1) Consistency (2) Longevity (3) Likelihood of completely decimating an attack on any given day (4) Better at his best (5) Better at his worst - that is, who had a better ability to grind it out and make it count even when they were not in good form? (6) Value to team The original post is obviously talking about (3) and (6) another intangible - swagger - which I think is over-rated. Bossbhai's numbers mostly reflect comparisons of (1), (2) and (6). Add in pitches, Kookaburras/Dukes, perceived quality of bowling faced, and helmet vs. non-helmet eras, it becomes impossible (albeit interesting) to fairly compare batsmen from two different eras. The original poster obviously favors IVAR - hence the focus on destruction and swagger. I - having watched both IVAR and SRT - would first pick the consistent, no-nonsense, tough, supremely confident (sans swagger), usually destructive, yet unassuming fellow who made everyone else around him better players. SRT any day.

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You forgot the part about evolution and how things do progressively get better over time in all aspects of life' date= which in itself doesn't diminish achievements of the past, on how you can't expect someone from 100 years ago to have done the same against the bowling of today without also considering how someone who is from today would have performed 100 years ago being born then with the coaching available then, yada yada yada. :winky:
Evolution is not progress. Evolution is only diversity. As a biologist, I cringe when I see that connection, and have to comment. If you're interested:
Evolution is not progress. Populations simply adapt to their current surroundings. They do not necessarily become better in any absolute sense over time. A trait or strategy that is successful at one time may be unsuccessful at another. Paquin and Adams demonstrated this experimentally. They founded a yeast culture and maintained it for many generations. Occasionally, a mutation would arise that allowed its bearer to reproduce better than its contemporaries. These mutant strains would crowd out the formerly dominant strains.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

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yea right. thanks for reminding. e.g. WC2011.. England and SA were the only minnows' date=' and pak was next worst (having reached the semis).[/quote'] First, I am biased because I chose Richards despite thinking that both tendulkar and Richards are equally good Second, doing well against Eng and SA in WC shows that your chances of doing well in a tourney with 3 teams or more are not boosted by playing weaker teams. And Eng I presume was a strong team. Anyways keep going ....

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Evolution is not progress. Evolution is only diversity. As a biologist, I cringe when I see that connection, and have to comment. If you're interested: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
Bhai, if he wanted to know the correct meaning of evolution he would have been a biologist :P .... I hope you see the point that he is trying to make

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First' date= I am biased because I chose Richards despite thinking that both tendulkar and Richards are equally good Second, doing well against Eng and SA in WC shows that your chances of doing well in a tourney with 3 teams or more are not boosted by playing weaker teams. And Eng I presume was a strong team. Anyways keep going ....
no issues with that, but giving absurd reasons to back up your pick with absurd reasons (like - better performer clutch/pressure situations) just does not make sense and needs to be pointed out.

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Bhai' date=' if he wanted to know the correct meaning of evolution he would have been a biologist :P .... I hope you see the point that he is trying to make[/quote'] It is obvious he is not, but is trying to use his erroneous understanding of evolution as a basis for his point. As a bio-evangelist, I had to fix the misconception.

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no issues with that' date=' but giving absurd reasons to back up your pick with absurd reasons (like - better performer clutch/pressure situations) just does not make sense and needs to be pointed out.[/quote'] Nah, I guess, I have to think like you to give reasons, be it doing kusti with Serena, or picking b/w being wise or whatever, .... :dance:

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Cricaddict, we are not at bioBS.com, rather at screwstatswatchsomevideofootage.com :hahaha: anyways, as rett pointed out http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evolution
Evolution simply means "change over time." Progress means "change resulting in something better." Where, on your link, does it say "progress"? Surely, you don't mean "progression" to mean "progress," do you?

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Vaibhav has already been surpassed in Post #20 where Richards was proved to be mediocre based on reverse cumulative averages - now it's just funzzz and stuffzzzz. B->
Don't forget he is suppose to have beaten all those who argue against Tendulkar being the greatest :winky:

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Evolution simply means "change over time." Progress means "change resulting in something better." Where' date=' on your link, does it say "progress"? Surely, you don't mean "progression" to mean "progress," do you?[/quote'] LOL!

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IMHO, both Richards and Tendulkar belong to the same league. No need to say that both of them are exceptionally gifted batsmen. I would like to have both of them in my team but if I had to pick one, who would I go for? A Richards in his best form or a Tendulkar in his best form. Or inversely, If I were the opposition captain, who would give me more nightmares. The answer is an inform Richards. This guy can turn the game on its head in no time and drive the opposition nuts. Which is why I would rather have Richards in my team than Tendulkar, even though both of them are in the same league. To illustrate, take a look at ODI WC finals. Richards just rises whether it is in fielding or batting. On the other hand, look at what Tendulkar did in 2003 and 2011 WC final games. PS I remember that 80 odd Lara hit against Ind in 2nd innings of one of the tests in India. The indications were the game would end in a draw and Ind would win the series. The guy hits a quick fire 80 on a track helping the spinne. These are the type of magical innings that change the game for your team and such players would be amonsgt the top ones of the shopping list of my team :grin:
Tbh, this is closer to my position. They both are in the same league. But in a tight spot with odds stacked against me, I would prefer Lara or Richards, which is not to say Sachin is inferior. I just think other two are more of gamerbreakers. Btw people have not dissapointed. Some pearls of wisdom here

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And while we keyboard cricketers fret over this question, here is Sir Viv about SRT, and weaved in is a statement about SRT's opinion of Sir Viv:

"I didn't see Don but to me, in all my years associated with the game, I haven't seen a better batsman than Sachin Tendulkar," said Richards in a eulogy to the "little man", who openly professes to have idolised him while growing up.
http://www.cricketcountry.com/cricket-articles/Tendulkar-is-the-greatest-batsman-Viv-Richards-/3138

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Nah' date=' I guess, I have to think like you to give reasons, be it doing kusti with Serena, or picking b/w being wise or whatever, .... :dance:[/quote'] I admire your skills to deviate from the topic. keep it up. :two_thumbs_up:

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Why would you want that S=G .... just jump in and have a blast :two_thumbs_up:
just for a change :--D tired of all this usual sh!t by the same people (you know who they are :D) in the Goddy vs XYZ threads.

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BTW' date=' rett talking about WC finals, didn't Richard play irresponsibly in the 83 finals? :dontknow:[/quote'] The thing about guys like Richards is that they will give you chances but credit to Kapil for taking that catch as if his life depended on it. Richards made one mistake and Ind kissed the WC so no complains there :two_thumbs_up: .... though I have only watched the highlights of thast game, someone who watched it live could give an even better account

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The thing about guys like Richards is that they will give you chances but credit to Kapil for taking that catch as if his life depended on it. Richards made one mistake and Ind kissed the WC so no complains there :two_thumbs_up: .... though I have only watched the highlights of thast game' date=' someone who watched it live could give an even better account[/quote'] Sir Viv played the 2nd best innings of that match after Krishnamachari Srikkanth, who had his own brand of swagger. I am old enough to remember watching it live, and a dozen times afterward, so take my word for it. Based on that on match, Srikkanth > Viv for performance *and* swagger. How 'bout that?

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Yeah' date=' let's go to stats guru, run some garbage query and proclaim Richards to be mediocre. :two_thumbs_up:[/quote'] Or we can go to stats guru, see 99.94 and proclaim Don Bradman as the greatest cricketer without actually ever having seen him bat :two_thumbs_up:

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Sir Viv played the 2nd best innings of that match after Krishnamachari Srikkanth, who had his own brand of swagger. I am old enough to remember watching it live, and a dozen times afterward, so take my word for it. Based on that on match, Srikkanth > Viv for performance *and* swagger. How 'bout that?
Thanks for confirming that Viv played the 2nd best inning of that game. The point was that he could not go on to play the best knock of the day (may have played an irresponsible shot) to give WI a hat-trick of WC wins .... Good for Ind :yay:

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In my opinion, swagger is over-rated. Aamir Sohail had swagger ... see where it got him.
If you really think Sohail's swagger was comparable to Richards then I should probably save us both some time and stop a reply. There is a world of difference between Richards coming out to face Thomson with a swagger than a Sohail coming out to meet Prasad. Never heard Sohail giving any swagger to Ambrose, for example. Heck I have never heard even the die-hard Pakistani fans compare Sohail in the same sentence, swagger or otherwise, with Richards.
More to the point - Before we compare Tendulkar and Richards, one must come up with specific criteria upon which you want to base the comparison. (1) Consistency (2) Longevity (3) Likelihood of completely decimating an attack on any given day (4) Better at his best (5) Better at his worst - that is, who had a better ability to grind it out and make it count even when they were not in good form? (6) Value to team
Consistency and Longevity are hallmarks for fans who want to fall on crutches for players who have had a long career. Period. Nobody ever judges a player on these two criteria. If that was indeed the barometer then Walsh would be greatest bowler ever. In this day and age of modern cricket batting where every decent batsman scores over 50 easily, wearing body armor that will put Commandoes to shame, on dead pitches with small boundaries, heavy bats where mishits routinely go for six, against bowlers who are not allowed to operate at will. You are gonna compare these to folks who would come out sans helmet knowing fully well they will be peppered with six bouncers in 1 over? And thats assuming there is no no-balls?? Who here really think SRT would have the same career had he been facing Marshall and Holding over 5 test series say 6 times over his career? Marshall took off the bat from Sunny's hand, broke Vengarkar nose, bled Amarnath multiple times, fractured Gaekwad's jaw etc etc. He would have a problem doing the same to SRT? Really? When Fred Trueman took his 309th wicket he had famously said whoever broke his record would be dead tired. Today of course every Tom, Dick and Bhajji has twice that number of wickets. So much so for modern day longevity. xxx

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Sir Viv played the 2nd best innings of that match after Krishnamachari Srikkanth, who had his own brand of swagger. I am old enough to remember watching it live, and a dozen times afterward, so take my word for it. Based on that on match, Srikkanth > Viv for performance *and* swagger. How 'bout that?
Dont say that to Cheeka. Even he would go :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: at you.

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If you really think Sohail's swagger was comparable to Richards then I should probably save us both some time and stop a reply. There is a world of difference between Richards coming out to face Thomson with a swagger than a Sohail coming out to meet Prasad. Never heard Sohail giving any swagger to Ambrose' date=' for example. Heck I have never heard even the die-hard Pakistani fans compare Sohail in the same sentence, swagger or otherwise, with Richards.[/quote'] Point taken. My point? Swagger alone does not a batsman make. One can be a great batsman with no overt swagger. Said another way, swagger does not equate to confidence. By themselves, consistency and longevity are insufficient for the "greatest ever" tag. Like a Dravid. But, it adds value to him who combines it with the ability to annihilate attacks. Like an SRT. Viv faced Marshall and Holding in tests? I see your point, but while we are being nitpicky, ... To the point, who is to say SRT would not have succeeded under those conditions? It is a question that will never be answered. Once again, it is just *one* criterion. xxx

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Dont say that to Cheeka. Even he would go :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: at you.
Of course, he would. But, did you see the disclaimer ... "based on that one match."

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So where are players like dravid and Laxman on the swagger scale? Much below Sohail and Afridi I reckon
Dravid would probably be below SRT on swagger scale too :P

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:adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: I thought only Vaibhav could make such posts but you have surpassed him :hatsoff:
How did I miss this gem? Weren't't you the one who combined stats of every format to show that Tendulkar is way ahead of his peer(s) (Ponting, iirc) to show that he like Bradman dominated his peers! .... I have seen folks discussing how many international 100s, he has hit .... Now you are trying to point out srtfanssuck, who is imitating folks like you :haha:

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How did I miss this gem? Weren't't you the one who combined stats of every format to show that Tendulkar is way ahead of his peer(s) (Ponting' date= iirc) to show that he like Bradman dominated his peers! .... I have seen folks discussing how many international 100s, he has hit .... Now you are trying to point out srtfanssuck, who is imitating folks like you :haha:
That is International cricket. Do you understand the difference between International cricket & First class cricket? If you don't then there's no point of further discussion. If you do understand the difference then you would've never combined stats of International cricket with first class cricket.

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If someone is still pretending that SRT is not the greatest batsman ever on this planet then they need to start slapping themselves till reality finally hits

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If someone is still pretending that SRT is not the greatest batsman ever on this planet then they need to start slapping themselves till reality finally hits
+ 1 :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

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ViV richards played in a great team. Sachin couldn't in whole 90s. Richards played with flamboyance all his career. Always dominating. Sachin changed this after tennis elbow injury. Richards was too strong to have an injury. :P Both best of their generations. Stop comparing batsman of different eras. Though Sachin vs Lara will be a good debate.

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ViV richards played in a great team. Sachin couldn't in whole 90s. Richards played with flamboyance all his career. Always dominating. Sachin changed this after tennis elbow injury. Richards was too strong to have an injury. :P Both best of their generations. Stop comparing batsman of different eras. Though Sachin vs Lara will be a good debate.
Either apply solution given in post 145 or if illness is serious read complete thread

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I just realised We are discussing rubbish here.. I blame ICC for killing best of the cricket.What we need is test match between China and Netherland every year. Players should be allowed to sleep on ground in case they feel tired or allowed to sit and chit chat in case they feel like it... What we will see is Ryan ten Doeschate is best player and world media and fans will follow him all acrioss the world. He average will atleast 200 run.... There we will find second best and third best,fourth best batsman from the world too.

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