Bhajji backers seem to be shying away....

[The Outsider]

How do you determine his rating? What if you both differ on the rating after series?

I trust Morris - he is not a fan boy but a backer in delusion of Bhajji's decline. He has agreed to the baseline in WI of 5/10, so I would give it to him to agree within a point of what we conclude and if it's too tight to call, we'll call it off. But the offer does not stand for fan boys who think 4 wickets in 45 overs against the mighty WI is a test classic.

[Ram]

How do you determine his rating? What if you both differ on the rating after series?

Well, I agree with his rating for the Windies series (5/10). His bowling was below par. As much as it looks like on one can agree with anybody else out here, I still think there’s room for some sane discussion.

[Ram]

I trust Morris - he is not a fan boy but a backer in delusion of Bhajji's decline. He has agreed to the baseline in WI of 5/10' date= so I would give it to him to agree within a point of what we conclude and if it's too tight to call, we'll call it off. But the offer does not stand for fan boys who think 4 wickets in 45 overs against the mighty WI is a test classic.

Respectfully disagree there. You will be hard-pressed to find any posts of mine singing praises of bhajji’s bowling in the last 2-3 years. My defense of him has always centered around 2 separate points; 1 – its been tough going for spinners in the last few years. Almost all of them, barring the odd exception, have seen their numbers plummet. Even the legend Kumble returned some really unflattering figures in his last few series, that too in home. Kaneria, after a fantastic start to his career (too 200 wickers in 40 tests) simply fell off the radar. Vettori’s numbers have degenerated so badly, they prefer to call him an all-rounder to mask the deficiencies in his bowling. Mendis went from rock-star to rock-bottom in 15 months. Even Murali labored in his last few test matches. All of Australia’s spinners have been an utter failure since Warne’s retirement. South Africa have never had a match-winning spinner in years. The only guy who has bucked the trend is Swann, in my opinion. I think we have to keep this mind when judging Bhajji. 2 – His bowling maybe below par, but the sum total of what he contributes to the team (numerous match-saving and match winning contributions with the bat) has helped us reach the no.1 place. Not only is Bhajji un-droppable because of this, but the so-called replacements have not really set the world on fire either. Of course, that isn’t to deflect any of the scrutiny away from his bowling, which has been average to below-par in the last few years, periodically inter-dispersed with good ones.

[punjabi_khota]

Anil Kumble averages 41.41 in England. Just FYI. :acute:

[The Outsider]

1. Kumble and Murali were getting too old to carry their crafts around - Mendis, was figured out. Vettori had a serious back operation after which he completely remodeled his action and his potency in tests, though he remains one notch above Bhajji in ODIs - he batted at 6 for NZ, can Bhajji do it for India? Yeah, Bhajji is better than the crap Australia and South Africa have produced, proves what? 2. I am least interested in the emotional leader crap - give me wickets any day over that.

[Cricket Tragic]

Speaking of Kumble, does anyone remember the ball to get Athers out in '96?

[Trichromatic]

2. I am least interested in the emotional leader crap - give me wickets any day over that.

And you would happy to loose this challenge, right?

[cowboysfan]

I think Bhajji will be lucky to hit 40 ,i will be shocked if he gets below 35.

[Ram]

1. Kumble and Murali were getting too old to carry their crafts around - Mendis' date=' was figured out. Vettori had a serious back operation after which he completely remodeled his action and his potency in tests, though he remains one notch above Bhajji in ODIs - he batted at 6 for NZ, can Bhajji do it for India? Yeah, Bhajji is better than the crap Australia and South Africa have produced, proves what? [/quote'] Don’t you think the fact that almost all spinners (I forgot to include Panesar’s name in the casualty list) have suffered in the last 3-4 years points to some underlying theme? Whether the batsmen are getting increasingly assertive in their treatment of spinners or the tracks are getting progressively slower, I don’t know. This part confuses me totally. We can argue all day and all night about his bowling numbers, but at the end of the day, the most relevant argument that we should be having is – Should Bhajji keep his place in the side or not? If not, then can we be confident that his replacement-in-waiting (Mishra, Ojha, Aswhin (maybe?)) are good enough to surpass him, based on what we have already seen? If this was as simple as say Warne struggling back in 99 after his surgery and somebody as talented as McGill waiting in the wings, then the decision for me is a no-brainer. However, Bhajji’s case is far from being that clear-cut. I think we need him in the team for reasons other than just bowling. Plus, I am not confident that, based on what I have seen, that his replacements will be any better bowlers than he has been.

[The Outsider]

Anil Kumble averages 41.41 in England. Just FYI. :acute:

And I suppose Kumble was playing for the number 1 side when our batting line ups were putting up decent scores for a spinner to defend. :hysterical:

[Lurker]

Actually with the team that we have World number 1 side. Possibly best Indian opening pair Possibly best Indian middle order Possibly best Indian keeper-batsman-captain Possibly best Indian pace attack to visit UK I would expect India to win this, admittedly against a strong English side at home, and Bhajji to take wickets at 3.5 plus per test at an average around 25 to be rated in my book. Although thus far seems fanboys are relucant to support him even at 30 :giggle:

[The Outsider]

Don’t you think the fact that almost all spinners (I forgot to include Panesar’s name in the casualty list) have suffered in the last 3-4 years points to some underlying theme? Whether the batsmen are getting increasingly assertive in their treatment of spinners or the tracks are getting progressively slower, I don’t know.

Nothing sinister - the great ones got old and faded out, the average were ones were just that - average - successful for a while only to flounder later on, Bhajji seems to be leaning towards the latter off late given the Swann show.

This part confuses me totally. We can argue all day and all night about his bowling numbers, but at the end of the day, the most relevant argument that we should be having is – Should Bhajji keep his place in the side or not? If not, then can we be confident that his replacement-in-waiting (Mishra, Ojha, Aswhin (maybe?)) are good enough to surpass him, based on what we have already seen?

None of these contenders have been given a decent run in the side. Ojha despite outperforming the cheerleader, in our last home season and instrumental in giving us a test win in Sri Lanka after Bhajji was b!tch slapped by all comers, finds himself not out of the team, but out of the squad.

If this was as simple as say Warne struggling back in 99 after his surgery and somebody as talented as McGill waiting in the wings, then the decision for me is a no-brainer. However, Bhajji’s case is far from being that clear-cut. I think we need him in the team for reasons other than just bowling. Plus, I am not confident that, based on what I have seen, that his replacements will be any better bowlers than he has been.

But MacGill was no match to Warne as a batsman, was he?

[punjabi_khota]

And I suppose Kumble was playing for the number 1 side when our batting line ups were putting up decent scores for a spinner to defend. :hysterical:

As far as I remember, we were scoring pretty decently in 2002 and 2007 ? I remember SRT and Dravid big hitting tons in 02.

[BERGKAMP]

I am a 'hater' (even though I don't hate him, just his bowling), I am in.

[The Outsider]

As far as I remember, we were scoring pretty decently in 2002 and 2007 ? I remember SRT and Dravid big hitting tons in 02.

And didn't Kumble win a test in '02 at Headingly based on that batting?

[Ram]

Will respond specifically to this;

Nothing sinister - the great ones got old and faded out, the average were ones were just that - average - successful for a while only to flounder later on, Bhajji seems to be leaning towards the latter off late given the Swann show.

Hmm, I think that’s just too broad and generic an explanation for a phenomenon that probably requires a little more investigation. To simply dismiss this recent situation as ‘No big deal.. the guys who floundered were simply crap..’ is I think not a good enough answer. Kaneria took 200 wickets in 40 tests. I dont think anybody would have then called him a 'average' spinner. I think he was a casualty of some unbelievably flat tracks in Pakistan. You can draw a direct corelation b/w the high scores in consecutive Pakistani homes test series and Kaneria's dip in form and fortune.

[Lurker]

And didn't Kumble win a test in '02 at Headingly based on that batting?

Decently may be a bit OTT. In 2002 we had Jaffer and Bangar opening with Sehwag, in 07 it was Dinesh Karthik and Jaffer. Although Karthik did play a couple of userful knocks I am hoping Sehwag and Gambhir put the English attack to sword this time :--D

[punjabi_khota]

And didn't Kumble win a test in '02 at Headingly based on that batting?

So whats your point here ? Only the situations where we can compare them are when India scores big ? Otherwise the comparisons don't stand ?

[Ram]

And I suppose Kumble was playing for the number 1 side when our batting line ups were putting up decent scores for a spinner to defend. :hysterical:

And was Sri Lanka the no.1 side and their batsmen scoring runs by the thousands when Murali was racking in consecutive 70+ wicket seasons?

[Lurker]

Will respond specifically to this; Hmm, I think that’s just too broad and generic an explanation for a phenomenon that probably requires a little more investigation. To simply dismiss this recent situation as ‘No big deal.. the guys who floundered were simply crap..’ is I think not a good enough answer. Kaneria took 200 wickets in 40 tests. I dont think anybody would have then called him a 'average' spinner. I think he was a casualty of some unbelievably flat tracks in Pakistan. You can draw a direct corelation b/w the high scores in consecutive Pakistani homes test series and Kaneria's dip in form and fortune.

I would. Kaneria was always an average spinner