Jatropha - India's magic cash crop

[gorah_pindu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha_incentives_in_India Millions of acres of wasteland, covered only in shrubs or dirt can hold this crop.

[Holysmoke]

what bs from the site In September 2007, the Hindustan Petroleum Corporation Limited (HPCL) joined hands with the Maharashtra State Farming Corporation Ltd (MSFCL) for a jatropha seed-based bio-diesel venture. As part of the project, a jatropha plant would be grown on 500 acres in Nashik and Aurangabad. september 2007 eh....

[Ram]

IF this works , it has to the potential to be among the most significant milestones of the century. As mentioned in the article, it has immense potential for employment. Its not a seasonel crop , so can be grown thoughout the year. But the economic impact of Jatropa's success could be mind-boggling. India spent a staggering $45 billion on oil imports last year. With the oil price sky rocketing , this price will surely go up. This severly impacts india's trade deficit and weakens the rupee. The finance minister P.Chidambaram literally cried his eyes out in a recent interview saying high oil prices could shave off upto 1% of India's GDP growth. Also of consequence is the geopolitical impact. If this crop succeeds and helps India acheieve energy security, this could hugely reduce the clout of middle eastern-south american oil cartel , which has till now, held the whole world hostage with its outrageous oil policies. They deliberately keep supply and demand close to each other so that oil prices are always on the brink and have abstained from investing into newer oil "infrastructure" ( oil blocks, better rigs). Then there is this whole issue of environmental sustainability. I am pretty sure this fuel doesnt emit carbon on burning. With so much focus on global warming, it wouldnt be so tough to garner public support for such crop. The govt must do its part to promote this crop. Interest free loans, subsidized crop seeds and fertilizers,zero sales tax, converting all possible public transportation into Jatropa are some of things it can do.

[CC1981]

My problem with this are: a) it has to make sure that Jatropha doesnt eat into our already endangered and diminishing forest land b) Some sort of moderation by the government or else like in Brazil, food crop prices will be adversely affected if too many farmers make the switch c) I dont see how burning it is not producing greenhouse gases- it will produce LESS greenhouse gases than oil for sure but anytime you burn a hydrocarbon, you make CO2 and H2O as the main reaction products.

[varun]

Yeah saw a few plantations like this in Rajasthan last time around and didn't what they were.. Good to see such initiatives.

[varun]

My problem with this are: a) it has to make sure that Jatropha doesnt eat into our already endangered and diminishing forest land

On the contrary, it can be grown on arid lands in places such as rajasthan. This might be useful to cover up dry dusty areas and actually control the "desertification" happenning due to loss of grasslands (too much grazing), as animals don't eat this plant.

[Guest dada_rocks]

in fact it's big in chhatisgarh already .. CM moves around in jathropa fuel powered vehicle...

[gorah_pindu]

IF this works , it has to the potential to be among the most significant milestones of the century. As mentioned in the article, it has immense potential for employment. Its not a seasonel crop , so can be grown thoughout the year. But the economic impact of Jatropa's success could be mind-boggling. India spent a staggering $45 billion on oil imports last year. With the oil price sky rocketing , this price will surely go up. This severly impacts india's trade deficit and weakens the rupee. The finance minister P.Chidambaram literally cried his eyes out in a recent interview saying high oil prices could shave off upto 1% of India's GDP growth. Also of consequence is the geopolitical impact. If this crop succeeds and helps India acheieve energy security, this could hugely reduce the clout of middle eastern-south american oil cartel , which has till now, held the whole world hostage with its outrageous oil policies. They deliberately keep supply and demand close to each other so that oil prices are always on the brink and have abstained from investing into newer oil "infrastructure" ( oil blocks, better rigs). Then there is this whole issue of environmental sustainability. I am pretty sure this fuel doesnt emit carbon on burning. With so much focus on global warming, it wouldnt be so tough to garner public support for such crop. The govt must do its part to promote this crop. Interest free loans, subsidized crop seeds and fertilizers,zero sales tax, converting all possible public transportation into Jatropa are some of things it can do.

Also - India should invest in South African style 'synthetic oil' plants - where coal is converted into rich oil - afterall, India has one of the largest coal reserves in the world. That coupled with offshore oil, and biofuels, could lead to real energy safety - if nuclear, wave, solar and wind power is introduced into the energy grid.

[Ram]

Also - India should invest in South African style 'synthetic oil' plants - where coal is converted into rich oil - afterall' date=' India has one of the largest coal reserves in the world. That coupled with offshore oil, and biofuels, could lead to real energy safety - if nuclear, wave, solar and wind power is introduced into the energy grid.[/quote'] Unforutnately, all of this isnt going to happen in our lifetime !

[THX_1138]

the biggest problem with dependence on bio diesel generated from crops is the increase in arable land that will eventually translate into deforestation. just look at brazil! in Mato Grasso, one of the most controversial provinces of Brazil, the Governor: Gov. Magi is an owner of a large soy bean consortium that uses mechanization to produce massive amounts of soy beans for consumption in europe and united states and as a result every day 100 acres of forest area in Mato Grasso is lost to agriculture. Such mechanizations replace our age old practices of substinence agriculture which might not be profitable but atleast maintain an ecological balance. Worse yet, as commercialization begins, the small farmer is forced out of business and eventually employed by a agricultural consortium which have one of the worst human rights records in the world. less than minimum wages, no unionization and above all, the jobs becomes perpetual as the worker's next generation also follows in its ancestor's footsteps. eventually you have a society where the polarity increases, thereby causing greater economic and social instability. and thats not even to speak of the environmental cost. consider this: 1. bio diesels are molecularly different and this prevents them from being shipped and transported in tankers used for regular petroleum based diesels. thereby continuing our dependence on the petrochemical infrastructure that provides the whole transportation and distribution of this resource. 2. burning of alcohol based fuels such as ethanol and bio diesels releases dangerous toxins such as formaldehyde and acetone which are over a 100 times worse than CO2 when it comes to global warming. 3. apart from the toxins released, these fuels harm the environment by reducing forest cover, especially in the tropical regions where the impact of reduced forest area is profound. believe it or not, its is over 1000 times more desirable to plant a tree in the tropics than in the temperates when it comes to combating global warming. finally, i still suggest we stick to government subsidized, substinence agriculture and use renewable energy sources such as wind and solar of which both we have enough to power all of asia. and yes, if you must use bio diesels, wait till we master the technique of using algae to produce these fuels. according to wikipedia, the average per pound produce of ethanol from a pound of algae is about a 1000 gallons as opposed to a maximum of 100 gallons than can be extracted from any plant currently cultivated.

[THX_1138]

Unforutnately' date=' all of this isnt going to happen in our lifetime ![/quote'] actually the technique has already been perfected in united states. its called coal gasification. using water and coal, the coal is 'washed' under certain circumstances where it is rid of its sulphur based toxins to create CO (carbon monoxide) which burns a lot more cleaner and then the CO2 is passed through these massive algae stacks where the algae remove the CO2 and trap it in itself (the algae is then a very high protein liquid that can be consumed without any preparation). eventually the amount of CO2 released per pound of coal is about a third of what it would be if the coal had been burnt as it is, and of course, the sulfur toxins are also removed, and you have a protein rich nutrient. the problem is that it requires money to make this infrastructure, money that the bloody coal mining and power generation companies dont want to spend, or cant spend since all the fracking subsidies are being given to the oil companies.

[CC1981]

THX, in my opinion, we have no forseeable alternative to oil or biofuel for the forseeable future. Yes, i am definitely more favourable towards solar/wind power than any other forms of energy but the problem i think you are overlooking is that energy sector is (broadly speaking) divided into two sectors: power generation and transportation. For the former, where massive amounts of power is generated ( predominantly for electricity) from a massive production facility, switching from coal/gas to solar/wind is ideally preferrable. But when it comes to transportation, solar/wind power is not suited. We have to face the fact that people arnt just gonna give up their cars even if we make super public transportation on a national scale - simply because cars give the driver independence that is handy. Sure, excellent electric buses/metros etc. will reduce the average person's dependency and usage of his/her car but it won't eliminate it alltogether. And where there be cars and planes, there be something that can burn. Hydrogen-powered cars have a massive problem - hydrogen is volatile and if the containment system fails, it can result in a huge fireball. Having spent some time at Ballards, i can tell you that this is precisely the snag in hydrogen power- we can make the fuel tank bullet-proof and unbreachable no problems, but we cannot make the entire fuel injection system/transmission line and engine block unbreachable. And with the volatility of hydrogen, you don't need fuel tank to go boom- the amount of hydrogen present in your fuel lines, injectors & engine block is enough for a bad fireball. So that leaves us with oil and biodeisel. IMO, its stupid to go for biodiesel. We don't just extract petroleum so we can burn it- we also need oil for plastics and a zillion other petrochemicals: All of which comes AFTER you fractionally distil crude oil. So 'no oil' is a bit stupid- you mean to say we are gonna go through all that trouble to break crude into heavy,light,gas,kerosine, etc ( we need to for petrochemicals & plastics!) and then throw away the diesel/kerosine/gasoline ?!? eh ?! Has anyone ever thought about that ? Its better to remain depenent on oil than risk going jojoba and wreacking havoc with our ecology. Yes, jatropha can grow on desert soil- but it grows better on alluvial/fertile soil. The better yeild on fertile soil is an incentive for farmers to grow jatropha on farmlands where food is grown today. This inevitably means forests are gonna be cleared for more farmland like it is happening in Brazil. If we are worried about our energy dependency, the solution is simple : switch the power generation sector to solar/wind/nuclear not just to cover India's needs but also meet the needs of our neighbouring nations- bangladesh,nepal,pakistan,bhutan,maybe even Kabul. Thats a client-base of almsot 400 million people outside of our economy. We use this money to keep buying oil for our transportation sector. And if we limit our oil consumption to transportation sector only, we are limiting it to less than 30% of our energy needs. That means even if every other Indian owns a car and drives every other day(lets not forget mass transit either), its still FAR LESS greenhouse gas generation than today for India. This means that while we remain 'dependent' on oil, we are actually a net energy exporter ( exporting power to our neighbors). This doesnt leave us at the mercy of middle east or any particular oil exporter as being a net energy exporter ourselves, we will be able to throw a lot of money around for a 'new' client who can 'walk the straight line'. Plus if we capture their power market, our influence over them ( predominantly in controlling how NOT to eff us over through terrorism) increases massively. So instead of planting Jatropha in the desert, lets build solar plants there instead.

[THX_1138]

THX, in my opinion, we have no forseeable alternative to oil or biofuel for the forseeable future. Yes, i am definitely more favourable towards solar/wind power than any other forms of energy but the problem i think you are overlooking is that energy sector is (broadly speaking) divided into two sectors: power generation and transportation. For the former, where massive amounts of power is generated ( predominantly for electricity) from a massive production facility, switching from coal/gas to solar/wind is ideally preferrable. But when it comes to transportation, solar/wind power is not suited. We have to face the fact that people arnt just gonna give up their cars even if we make super public transportation on a national scale - simply because cars give the driver independence that is handy. Sure, excellent electric buses/metros etc. will reduce the average person's dependency and usage of his/her car but it won't eliminate it alltogether. And where there be cars and planes, there be something that can burn. Hydrogen-powered cars have a massive problem - hydrogen is volatile and if the containment system fails, it can result in a huge fireball. Having spent some time at Ballards, i can tell you that this is precisely the snag in hydrogen power- we can make the fuel tank bullet-proof and unbreachable no problems, but we cannot make the entire fuel injection system/transmission line and engine block unbreachable. And with the volatility of hydrogen, you don't need fuel tank to go boom- the amount of hydrogen present in your fuel lines, injectors & engine block is enough for a bad fireball. So that leaves us with oil and biodeisel. IMO, its stupid to go for biodiesel. We don't just extract petroleum so we can burn it- we also need oil for plastics and a zillion other petrochemicals: All of which comes AFTER you fractionally distil crude oil. So 'no oil' is a bit stupid- you mean to say we are gonna go through all that trouble to break crude into heavy,light,gas,kerosine, etc ( we need to for petrochemicals & plastics!) and then throw away the diesel/kerosine/gasoline ?!? eh ?! Has anyone ever thought about that ? Its better to remain depenent on oil than risk going jojoba and wreacking havoc with our ecology. Yes, jatropha can grow on desert soil- but it grows better on alluvial/fertile soil. The better yeild on fertile soil is an incentive for farmers to grow jatropha on farmlands where food is grown today. This inevitably means forests are gonna be cleared for more farmland like it is happening in Brazil. If we are worried about our energy dependency, the solution is simple : switch the power generation sector to solar/wind/nuclear not just to cover India's needs but also meet the needs of our neighbouring nations- bangladesh,nepal,pakistan,bhutan,maybe even Kabul. Thats a client-base of almsot 400 million people outside of our economy. We use this money to keep buying oil for our transportation sector. And if we limit our oil consumption to transportation sector only, we are limiting it to less than 30% of our energy needs. That means even if every other Indian owns a car and drives every other day(lets not forget mass transit either), its still FAR LESS greenhouse gas generation than today for India. This means that while we remain 'dependent' on oil, we are actually a net energy exporter ( exporting power to our neighbors). This doesnt leave us at the mercy of middle east or any particular oil exporter as being a net energy exporter ourselves, we will be able to throw a lot of money around for a 'new' client who can 'walk the straight line'. Plus if we capture their power market, our influence over them ( predominantly in controlling how NOT to eff us over through terrorism) increases massively. So instead of planting Jatropha in the desert, lets build solar plants there instead.

i dont know what you are eating, but of late you and i seem to be on the same page. you are correct in the classification of the entire fossil fuel industry into two predominant sectors: transportation and power generation. well there an argument to be made for other applications such as textiles, plastics etc but they all have organic solutions. the thing is, the future of the world is not in hydrogen. why? well hydrogen is very very volatile, it cannot be stored without problems, and though they have come up with metal hydride crystals that have broke the barrier of 300 miles i.e. they permit enough hydrogen to be stored in the vehicle that it can travel 300 miles before another fill up, there is the significant problem of hydrogen refueling. the most viable option is onsite generation. i.e. using electrolysis. this can be achieved if we substantially boost our electricity generation capabilities. nonetheless, the cheapest fuel cell vehicle cost more than a million dollars. the truth is, hydrogen is a ruse and a misdirection by the petroleum industry to maintain their monopoly while still engage in PR about their attempts at renewable energy sources. the solution is in electric cars. infact, another vehicle about to be made in india by TATA is powered on compressed air and has a range of 100kms and can be refueled just as easily as refueling gasoline or can be refueled at home using a compressor. as for power generation, get this... india has a wind power potential of 1.5 Tera Watts. that is twice the amount needed for all of asia. need i say more? besides our companies are already making the per unit cost of solar cells lower than it has ever been so far thanks to mass production. finally, we can wean ourself off fossil fuels within the next decade if we made a genuine push for it, and even the next 5 years if we are desperate. but that is where lies the problem. since this transition is relatively easy to make (we have the entire infrastructure for mass production of wind mills and solar plants, and electric cars), fossil fuel will remain dominant since there is still over 1 billion barrels of crude oil let to mine, and thus, over a trillion dollars worth business to be made!

[THX_1138]

Hydrogen-powered cars have a massive problem - hydrogen is volatile and if the containment system fails, it can result in a huge fireball. Having spent some time at Ballards, i can tell you that this is precisely the snag in hydrogen power- we can make the fuel tank bullet-proof and unbreachable no problems, but we cannot make the entire fuel injection system/transmission line and engine block unbreachable. And with the volatility of hydrogen, you don't need fuel tank to go boom- the amount of hydrogen present in your fuel lines, injectors & engine block is enough for a bad fireball.

just a clarrification. hydrogen powered cars DO NOT use hydrogen as a combustible fuel, primarily since hydrogen when compressed by the factors it would be in an internal combustion engine (usally 1 - 5 to about 1 - 9), would raise the ambient temperature so much that it would cause considerable damage to the engine parts. instead, it is used in a fuel cell where it combines with oxygen to produce water and electricity which is used to power batteries that run an electric motor to turn the wheels.

[CC1981]

the solution is in electric cars. infact, another vehicle about to be made in india by TATA is powered on compressed air and has a range of 100kms and can be refueled just as easily as refueling gasoline or can be refueled at home using a compressor.

Electric cars are far off the standards needed, THX. Personally, i dont think we'll have an electric car that can drive 500 Kms on full tank on highway for a long long time. short-ranged electric cars are useless in the overall scheme of things- if we have an excellent public transportation system within cities/towns, electric cars would be then used for quick trips to the convinience store or for long drives in the weekends.

plastics etc but they all have organic solutions.

News to me. I thought that the petrochemical industry is irreplacable.

[The Outsider]

Nice thread. Some really good information.

[gorah_pindu]

News to me. I thought that the petrochemical industry is irreplacable.

Not neccecarily plastic-like, but there are materials with similar properties.

[THX_1138]

why on earth do my posts disappear? is there something wrong with the message board?

[THX_1138]

Electric cars are far off the standards needed, THX. Personally, i dont think we'll have an electric car that can drive 500 Kms on full tank on highway for a long long time. short-ranged electric cars are useless in the overall scheme of things- if we have an excellent public transportation system within cities/towns, electric cars would be then used for quick trips to the convinience store or for long drives in the weekends. News to me. I thought that the petrochemical industry is irreplacable.

already do. they use lithium ion batteries and regenerative braking. recharging time: 9 minutes for a 300 mile journey. and in city driving conditions, make that 350 miles. look up tesla motors.

[THX_1138]

Electric cars are far off the standards needed, THX. Personally, i dont think we'll have an electric car that can drive 500 Kms on full tank on highway for a long long time. short-ranged electric cars are useless in the overall scheme of things- if we have an excellent public transportation system within cities/towns, electric cars would be then used for quick trips to the convinience store or for long drives in the weekends. News to me. I thought that the petrochemical industry is irreplacable.

there are something called organic plastics. its actually a soybean oil derivative that has polymers quite like those in plastics and can be moulded just like plastic. had this technology since 1940s when george washington carver of the tuskege university was winding down an illustrious career in soy bean related research. p.s. look up george washington carver, they guy is an inspiration.