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Elephant in the room


cowboysfan

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This is the only language you understand - .. SRT kee marzi' date=' jab tak mann hai khelega... 15k, 16k, 110 100s or whatever - he has earned the right to make that choice... jo ukhad sakta hai ukhaad le.[/quote'] I don't even know what language you can comprehend properly so wouldn't bother .... but we are not talking about 'rights' here. It's like Ind wins the toss and decides to field, many people would say Ind could have batted first and then someone like you would talk about Dhoni's right as a captain :hysterical: Thanks for dumbing down the thread though .... Shows the thinking process of those who turn into fanatics :P
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@rett, Can't agree with most of your points... 1. Lara, Richards being as good as Tendulkar, if not better, just because they could have scored runs if they had prolonged their careers just like Tendulkar has been able to. You are making as very big assumption that Lara, Richards etc. would have continued to be as good as they were at their peak. Tendulkar is a special players as he's the only player I am aware of who has been so successful for such a long period. And yes, longevity does have an impact on your legacy, i.e. player with 5000 runs in 50 Tests will not be considered anywhere as close to a player with 15000 runs in 150 tests. Performing consistently and at a high level for a longer period is the difficult part and separates great players from merely good. We can all see how difficult it is to keep on performing consistently at a high level for a prolonged period looking at Ponting. A few years back he was all set to break all cricketing records and now all that talk sounds ridiculous. Ponting's case proves it's one thing to hit a peak but a different ball-game altogether to sustain the same. Over the last 22 years the best batsman in the world debate has seen Tendulkar being pitted against the likes of Lara, Anwar (in odis), Inzimam (mostly by Imran), Aravinda De Silva, Mark Waugh, Mohd Yusuf (formerly Yusuf Youhana), Dravid, Ponting, Mike Hussey, KP etc., but one thing remained a constant - Tendulkar. That itself proves how amazing Tendulkar has been that his peers or competitors for the "best batsman" title have come and gone Tendulkar has always been there. 2. Tendulkar too stats conscious and selfish. Don't really know why it's such a bad thing at all, and I don't know anyone at professional level who doesn't care about their stats and legacy. Every great player in any sport and in any era has cared about their stats and this is exactly what drove them to excellence. I would love all my players to be stats conscious and selfish as more runs, centuries, wkts and 5 wkt haul can only be good for the team. Would you really want to have a batsman in your team to say "Hmmm, it's a flat wkt but I wouldn't care about a 100 and just throw my bat and see what I can score". I wish this selfish quality actually rubs on Sehwag as he could have been an all-time great if he had been a little selfish and stats conscious as it's frustrating to see him throw it away and getting 30s or 40s when he could easily go and get a 100. And yes, a selfish 100 will always win you lot more games than an "unselfish" 30. If putting a price on your wkt is considered selfish then so be it and wish every Indian batsman becomes selfish. 3. Tendulkar hanging around for too long. Now this is an interesting discussion and you raise a very good point but are being a bit too harsh on Tendulkar. In fact if I were a selector I would have had a chat with Tendulkar and requested him to retire from odis. Tendulkar owns every conceivable record in odis and is clearly the best odi batsman ever and his records will never be overtaken, plus winning the WC was a cherry on top on his odi record. With the next odi world cup 4 years away and Tendulkar too old to play in that world cup (he would be 42 that time) it makes sense for him not to play in odis as we have decent talent in shorter format anyway. Plus with Tendulkar not focusing on odis will add a year or two to his Test career and that is where we need him the most. In Tests I would play our senior batsmen (Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman) selectively so that I can have a transition to the younger generation. When we tour England, SA or Aus, I would want all of them to play the Tests but against other teams, and especially at home I would only play 1 or 2 (at most) per series depending on the opposition. For example against WI at home, or against NZ or B'desh, I would only have one of the senior batsmen play and have youngsters like Pujara, Kohli and Rahane take the other two batting spots. Against SL or Pak I would play 2 senior batsmen in a Test and have one spot for a youngster. Selectors have to understand that we cannot afford to have the big 3 retire at the same time without adequate transition and it's high time we plan the transition. However, I would blame selectors and BCCI for inadequate planning and transition than blaming Tendulkar for being "selfish". Tendulkar (and Dravid & Laxman) are professional players and I wouldn't expect them to back out of an intl contest. In fact nobody does that - see Ponting, Katich, Hussey etc. It's up to selectors and board to handle the transition and not the players.

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OK, so Sachin never slowed down and took singles to get to his 100 from 80s .... the numbers that you presented (no valid source too) show that Sachin is justified to take singles and get bogged down once he got into 80s on many occassions Hitting a 6 to get to a 100 in tests shows you are not obsessed with numbers and playing overs after overs when the captain wanted to declare only shows he was playing the balls on merit when the captain could have declared some time ago if he were not in the 190s And now I have been accused of lying :giggle: ..... Yes, Sir, I agree that what you presented shows that I am lying and you are saying nothing but the truth :P
No the numbers show that Sachin does not get bogged down, does not slow down and plays as normal. Lying is when you know what I said is a fact but keep on repeating that he gets bogged down when thats not the case Hitting a six if a ball is to be hit and blocking when a ball is to be blocked is playing a ball on merit. We won that test match with plenty of overs to spare so Sachin knew exactly what he was doing As for the source on my claim, there was a thread on this forum too. Let me search for that
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I don't even know what language you can comprehend properly so wouldn't bother .... but we are not talking about 'rights' here. It's like Ind wins the toss and decides to field, many people would say Ind could have batted first and then someone like you would talk about Dhoni's right as a captain :hysterical: Thanks for dumbing down the thread though .... Shows the thinking process of those who turn into fanatics :P
Talking about dumbing down... despite resisting for so long, eventually I did not have choice to follow the example you have set at the very beginning. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1706532&postcount=68 I see that you have added something recently, after some moderator hid the highly classified intelligent stuff from your post - from lesser mortals like rest of us.
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@rett, Can't agree with most of your points... 1. Lara, Richards being as good as Tendulkar, if not better, just because they could have scored runs if they had prolonged their careers just like Tendulkar has been able to. You are making as very big assumption that Lara, Richards etc. would have continued to be as good as they were at their peak. Tendulkar is a special players as he's the only player I am aware of who has been so successful for such a long period. And yes, longevity does have an impact on your legacy, i.e. player with 5000 runs in 50 Tests will not be considered anywhere as close to a player with 15000 runs in 150 tests. Performing consistently and at a high level for a longer period is the difficult part and separates great players from merely good. We can all see how difficult it is to keep on performing consistently at a high level for a prolonged period looking at Ponting. A few years back he was all set to break all cricketing records and now all that talk sounds ridiculous. Ponting's case proves it's one thing to hit a peak but a different ball-game altogether to sustain the same. Over the last 22 years the best batsman in the world debate has seen Tendulkar being pitted against the likes of Lara, Anwar (in odis), Inzimam (mostly by Imran), Aravinda De Silva, Mark Waugh, Mohd Yusuf (formerly Yusuf Youhana), Dravid, Ponting, Mike Hussey, KP etc., but one thing remained a constant - Tendulkar. That itself proves how amazing Tendulkar has been that his peers or competitors for the "best batsman" title have come and gone Tendulkar has always been there. 2. Tendulkar too stats conscious and selfish. Don't really know why it's such a bad thing at all, and I don't know anyone at professional level who doesn't care about their stats and legacy. Every great player in any sport and in any era has cared about their stats and this is exactly what drove them to excellence. I would love all my players to be stats conscious and selfish as more runs, centuries, wkts and 5 wkt haul can only be good for the team. Would you really want to have a batsman in your team to say "Hmmm, it's a flat wkt but I wouldn't care about a 100 and just throw my bat and see what I can score". I wish this selfish quality actually rubs on Sehwag as he could have been an all-time great if he had been a little selfish and stats conscious as it's frustrating to see him throw it away and getting 30s or 40s when he could easily go and get a 100. And yes, a selfish 100 will always win you lot more games than an "unselfish" 30. If putting a price on your wkt is considered selfish then so be it and wish every Indian batsman becomes selfish. 3. Tendulkar hanging around for too long. Now this is an interesting discussion and you raise a very good point but are being a bit too harsh on Tendulkar. In fact if I were a selector I would have had a chat with Tendulkar and requested him to retire from odis. Tendulkar owns every conceivable record in odis and is clearly the best odi batsman ever and his records will never be overtaken, plus winning the WC was a cherry on top on his odi record. With the next odi world cup 4 years away and Tendulkar too old to play in that world cup (he would be 42 that time) it makes sense for him not to play in odis as we have decent talent in shorter format anyway. Plus with Tendulkar not focusing on odis will add a year or two to his Test career and that is where we need him the most. In Tests I would play our senior batsmen (Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman) selectively so that I can have a transition to the younger generation. When we tour England, SA or Aus, I would want all of them to play the Tests but against other teams, and especially at home I would only play 1 or 2 (at most) per series depending on the opposition. For example against WI at home, or against NZ or B'desh, I would only have one of the senior batsmen play and have youngsters like Pujara, Kohli and Rahane take the other two batting spots. Against SL or Pak I would play 2 senior batsmen in a Test and have one spot for a youngster. Selectors have to understand that we cannot afford to have the big 3 retire at the same time without adequate transition and it's high time we plan the transition. However, I would blame selectors and BCCI for inadequate planning and transition than blaming Tendulkar for being "selfish". Tendulkar (and Dravid & Laxman) are professional players and I wouldn't expect them to back out of an intl contest. In fact nobody does that - see Ponting, Katich, Hussey etc. It's up to selectors and board to handle the transition and not the players.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but just to point out some of the inconsistencies: 1. Tendulkar has 15k odd runs from 183 tests, not 150. In your example, you used the same runs per test of 100, i.e. 5000 in 50 tests vs 15000 in 150 tests. Also deciding to continue playing test cricket also depends upon a lot of factors some of which are not directly related to cricketing skills .... which is why in future, someone where to say make his debut at 30 and quit at 38, playing say 80 tests, scoring 8k runs, he could be considered better than Tendulkar .... To me, Lara and Richards are special players too 2. I am talking abt the mindless obsession with stats and how our cricketing culture and mindset could be affected by that and needing a role model to show the right direction 3. I didn't say Tendulkar should retire but he could have retired looking at the bigger picture that I presented. And I would be happy if he had retired after the world cup
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Talking about dumbing down... despite resisting for so long, eventually I did not have choice to follow the example you have set at the very beginning. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=1706532&postcount=68 I see that you have added something recently, after some moderator hid the highly classified intelligent stuff from your post - from lesser mortals like rest of us.
There was nothing highly classified there .... It was the same thing that I wrote but had the word 'fart'. I don't know why it was moderated in the first place Again, you are touching on trival stuff which no one cares
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but just to point out some of the inconsistencies: 1. Tendulkar has 15k odd runs from 183 tests, not 150. In your example, you used the same runs per test of 100, i.e. 5000 in 50 tests vs 15000 in 150 tests. Also deciding to continue playing test cricket also depends upon a lot of factors some of which are not directly related to cricketing skills .... which is why in future, someone where to say make his debut at 30 and quit at 38, playing say 80 tests, scoring 8k runs, he could be considered better than Tendulkar .... To me, Lara and Richards are special players too 2. I am talking abt the mindless obsession with stats and how our cricketing culture and mindset could be affected by that and needing a role model to show the right direction 3. I didn't say Tendulkar should retire but he could have retired looking at the bigger picture that I presented. And I would be happy if he had retired after the world cup
1. Do you think a player that debuts at 30 is better than Sachin? 2. Do you think the existing and proven stats are obsessive compared to the imaginary stats you pull out of your hole? 3. You didn't? Your picture is superior than Sachin's for him self? how do you prove this? Give me one reason why a batsman in full form and the best technique with a fit body should retire? I would understand your point if Sachin's skills and agility were declining like the others who retired i.e., Lara. Your problem is that you can't digest the facts. You can't digest that a 38 year old outsmarts and outperforms most youngsters in the game. You can't digest the fact that this 38 year old has not declined like most others at the same age (exception Sanath - played till he was over 40 but also declined). The only thing I hear from your useless posts is that Sachin is 38 and he should retire, why do you have obsession with a man's age? Do you have a thing for them?
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but just to point out some of the inconsistencies: 1. Tendulkar has 15k odd runs from 183 tests, not 150. In your example, you used the same runs per test of 100, i.e. 5000 in 50 tests vs 15000 in 150 tests. Also deciding to continue playing test cricket also depends upon a lot of factors some of which are not directly related to cricketing skills .... which is why in future, someone where to say make his debut at 30 and quit at 38, playing say 80 tests, scoring 8k runs, he could be considered better than Tendulkar .... To me, Lara and Richards are special players too 2. I am talking abt the mindless obsession with stats and how our cricketing culture and mindset could be affected by that and needing a role model to show the right direction 3. I didn't say Tendulkar should retire but he could have retired looking at the bigger picture that I presented. And I would be happy if he had retired after the world cup
1. I took a hypothetical scenario which actually is more favorable to your argument than the one you used :smiley: In the example you are using, Tendulkar actually averages 56 against an average of 51 or thereabouts for Richards/Lara. How can a player with better average and longer career and more runs be inferior to a player with lesser average, less no. of games and lesser no. of runs???? 2. Don't care about what fans think but you can't blame Tendulkar for being selfish or stats hungry. In fact they are good signs in a professional sportsperson. 3. In odis I wouldn't mind seeing Tendulkar retire but in Tests he should continue for 2-3 years to smoothen the transition to youngsters but as I mentioned it's ultimately up to the board and selectors to manage the same.
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1. Do you think a player that debuts at 30 is better than Sachin? 2. Do you think the existing and proven stats are obsessive compared to the imaginary stats you pull out of your hole? 3. You didn't? Your picture is superior than Sachin's for him self? how do you prove this? Give me one reason why a batsman in full form and the best technique with a fit body should retire? I would understand your point if Sachin's sills were declining like the others who retired i.e., Lara.
1. Yes, if he scores 8k runs in 80 tests. In shorts depends upon how he performs 2. This shows a lack of understanding on your part of what's being discussed (something that commin with the fanatics, which is why they become one :P) 3. This is like asking who Ram was after the Ramayan
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1. Yes' date= if he scores 8k runs in 80 tests. In shorts depends upon how he performs 2. This shows a lack of understanding on your part of what's being discussed (something that commin with the fanatics, which is why they become one :P) 3. This is like asking who Ram was after the Ramayan
By that logic I am sure you consider Vinod Kambli as an all-time great as he had two double tons in a short span with one double century every 7-8 tests :winky:
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1. I took a hypothetical scenario which actually is more favorable to your argument than the one you used :smiley: In the example you are using, Tendulkar actually averages 56 against an average of 51 or thereabouts for Richards/Lara. How can a player with better average and longer career and more runs be inferior to a player with lesser average, less no. of games and lesser no. of runs???? 2. Don't care about what fans think but you can't blame Tendulkar for being selfish or stats hungry. In fact they are good signs in a professional sportsperson. 3. In odis I wouldn't mind seeing Tendulkar retire but in Tests he should continue for 2-3 years to smoothen the transition to youngsters but as I mentioned it's ultimately up to the board and selectors to manage the same.
1. You need to read the thread, where I talked in terms of runs per test (lara vs Ten) 2. Again, we are talking abt obsession .... even the 200 he got against SA in ODI. I was happy at the achievement but not how he got there in the end 3. There are various options
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