Flintoff's lift

[King]

Cricket: Some time today, Andrew Flintoff will return from a four-mile walk to the top of Rivington Pike, on LancashireÂ’s West Pennine range and England will have cause to believe he may yet realise his ambition to play for them again this summerMore... Flintoff's lift By PETER HAYTER - More by this author » Last updated at 21:38pm on 7th July 2007 Some time today, Andrew Flintoff will return from a four-mile walk to the top of Rivington Pike, on Lancashire's West Pennine range and England will have cause to believe he may yet realise his ambition to play for them again this summer. England's absent all-rounder is re-acquainting himself with the uphill climb on which he ran himself to full fitness alongside physio Dave Roberts before playing his full part in England's Ashes victory two summers ago. This will be the first time he has walked to the top since the latest operation on his chronic ankle problem five weeks ago and, all being well, he will start running on Friday as per the rehab programme devised for him by the England medical team. Flintoff, who came through a net session at Old Trafford on Friday, will not be fit for the three Tests against India starting at Lord's on July 19. But he is optimistic he will be available for some or all of the seven one-day games between August 21 and September 8 before September's Twenty20 World Cup in South Africa.

[King]

Sad that, would have liked to see him play against India. He would have been pretty handful against India. I'm sure India will be breathing a little easy with Freddi not available.

[Ram]

I am simply elated he isnt playing. He can win/turn matches in a session. He is their most dangerous player after KP. How i wish KP gets injured too !

[Donny]

There's a lot of hype still surrounding FF. Mostly myth. When was the last time he won a match for England ? Let alone in a session. In Tests, he averages 32.5 with the bat and 32 with the ball. Hardly figures to write home about. They keep batting him in the top 6 when his history and stats don't deserve it. He should be at 8, after Prior, or 7 at best and the third seamer. In ODIs, he has a touch over 1 wicket per match, doesn't have a particularly good economy rate and is a definite under performer with the bat. Even in his big series - the 2005 Ashes - he had a fairly ordinary time with the bat, averaging 40 with 1 century and took 24 wickets @ 27.29 with just one 5 wicket haul. He was certainly inspirational and a factor in the winning of the Ashes but not really the super hero the press made of him.

[gator]

Amen to tht, Dons...

[gator]

a while bak, i had compared Pathan's peak year with Flintoff's peak in odis.... Flint fell far behind, for tht matter most allrounders have in history.... Pathan averaged 18 with the ball and 34 with the bat over one full year - around 30 odis... and most of those wickets were on flat subcontinental tracks unhelpful for pace bowlers... this guy is unlucky to miss out on some feebies in swinging england where many a swing bowler inflated his wickets tally... ask Terry...

[observer1]

Flintoff will never again reach the not-so-dizzying heights he reached earlier; at least, not in the bowling department. When was the last time we saw a big AND tall fast bowler do consistently well, without breaking down? It is simply against the laws of evolution. Witness Akhthar, Bond, Kallis... The body needs to be lithe, and the skeleton thin . If he is smart, he will cut down on his pace, stick to bowling 125K, batting 5 down in tests and 4 down in odis, like Botham.

[Ram]

Flintoff doesnt win as many matches as some of the other leading performers do , but is that his fault ? The times he does deliver , the other english players dont back up. When that did happen ( Ashes 2005 ) we know what can happen. And Freddie was the single most influential player from either team in the 2005/2006 series played between India and England. He performed well with the bat and the ball . He was England's 3 highest run-getter and their 2 leading wicket taker behind Hoggard ( and Hoggard's` cause was helped a lot by a 6-for , other than that , he didnt do much in that series). But Flintoff picked up wicketes consistently in all the innings. His bowling was CRUCIAL in the 4th innings of the final deciding test match , which England won to level the series. He took the wickets of Dravid , Jaffer and Yuvraj to start the collapse. More than just the stats, it was the way in which Flintoff bowled which caught my eye. On slow and flat pitches were most bowlers had defensive fields and resorted to negative tactics ( like Hoggard bowling with the keeper up and packed off-side fields) , Flintoff ran in hard , even late in the day, bowling at speeds of close to 90 mph. His effort and commitment was there for all to see. Simply put , he was the DIFFERENCE between the two teams. But for him , India would have won 2-0 maybe and not tied 1-1. This was the article on cricinfo after the series got over. "Admittedly, nobody's saying that England are great just yet - hell, they didn't even win the series, as one or two Australians will already be queuing up to point out. But that is precisely why India is regarded as the litmus test of greatness, rather than greatness itself. If you can excel yourself here, you can do it anywhere, and it's no coincidence that the two stand-out performers in this series are Andrew Flintoff and Matthew Hoggard, the two men who forged their reputations in similarly adverse conditions under Nasser Hussain's leadership four years ago." Notice that no english batsman name has actually been mentioned in a article giving tribute to the team's performance. Such was Flintoff's impact in that series.

[King]

There's a lot of hype still surrounding FF. Mostly myth. When was the last time he won a match for England ? Let alone in a session. In Tests, he averages 32.5 with the bat and 32 with the ball. Hardly figures to write home about. They keep batting him in the top 6 when his history and stats don't deserve it. He should be at 8, after Prior, or 7 at best and the third seamer. In ODIs, he has a touch over 1 wicket per match, doesn't have a particularly good economy rate and is a definite under performer with the bat. Even in his big series - the 2005 Ashes - he had a fairly ordinary time with the bat, averaging 40 with 1 century and took 24 wickets @ 27.29 with just one 5 wicket haul. He was certainly inspirational and a factor in the winning of the Ashes but not really the super hero the press made of him.

Numbers can be deceiving Donny. We all know he wasn't any great in the first few years but matured with age. Clearly he has the ability to bowl and bat. I've seen him make several good scores and also claim crucial wickets. Here is his break up and you can see he has chipped in with his bowling when he hasn't been able to contribute much with the bat and vice versa.

[B]ODI career :
 [/B]
                     [FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]Mat  Runs  HS   BatAv 100  50   W    BB  BowlAv 5w  Ct St[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]season 1998/99         4    85  50   21.25   0   1   5  2/3    26.40  0   0  0
season 1999            5    15  15    7.50   0   0   2  1/28   48.00  0   0  0
season 2000            6    70  42*  17.50   0   0   0   -       -    0   3  0
season 2000/01         8   172  84   24.57   0   1   -   -       -    -   1  0
season 2001/02        16   315  52   24.23   0   1  20  4/17   27.15  0   8  0
season 2002            7   190  51   38.00   0   2   9  3/49   30.66  0   3  0
season 2002/03         6   172  64   28.66   0   1   8  2/15   24.50  0   4  0
season 2003           10   279  54   39.85   0   2  15  4/32   18.13  0   5  0
season 2003/04         9   301  70*  60.20   0   4  12  4/14   20.50  0   3  0
season 2004            9   512 123   73.14   3   1  11  3/11   16.81  0   1  0
season 2005           10   202  87   28.85   0   1  14  4/29   28.00  0   1  0
season 2005/06        12   361  72*  32.81   0   1  14  3/56   34.42  0   4  0 [/FONT][FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]
season 2006/07        21   402  72*  22.33   0   1  26  4/21   26.19  0   6  0

[B]Test Records[/B]
[/FONT][FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]season 1998            2    17  17    5.66   0   0   1  1/52  112.00  0   1  0
season 1999/00         4   155  42   25.83   0   0   5  2/31   38.00  0   2  0
season 2000            3    61  16   12.20   0   0   1  1/48   83.00  0   1  0
season 2001/02         6   269 137   24.45   1   1  15  4/50   33.46  0   3  0
season 2002            6   141  59   17.62   0   1  11  2/22   60.81  0   7  0
season 2003            5   423 142   52.87   1   3  10  2/55   59.20  0   0  0
season 2003/04         7   343 102*  34.30   1   1  20  5/58   25.90  1   7  0
season 2004            7   603 167   60.30   1   6  24  3/25   24.50  0   7  0
season 2004/05         5   227  77   28.37   0   2  23  4/44   24.95  0   2  0
season 2005            7   402 102   40.20   1   3  33  5/78   24.03  1   4  0
season 2005/06         7   439  70   33.76   0   5  31  4/59   27.48  0   6  0
season 2006            3    47  33*  15.66   0   0  12  3/52   29.50  0   4  0
season 2006/07         5   254  89   28.22   0   2  11  4/99   43.72  0   0  0[/FONT]

[observer1]

I was not disputing his stamina and will power Sriram, and not his attitude. In fact, if you were to watch him bat, bowl and field in real life, you will truly understand how significant he is to the English team

[King]

Freddi's been pretty consistent over the last few seasons with the ball. Last season he had a tough time what with Aussies thrashing the poms 5-0. He has shown ample evidence he has it in him to do well both with the bat and the ball. At home he is a pretty handful bowler. If fit he is possibly the second name that is penned down by the selectors I reckon.

[Ram]

I was not disputing his stamina and will power Sriram, and not his attitude. In fact, if you were to watch him bat, bowl and field in real life, you will truly understand how significant he is to the English team

I wasnt just referring to his attitude/will power/stamina Obs. I wanted to put forward solid prof that Flintoff was England's face saver in that series. Not only did he play well , he was also the captain and was widely credited for some good moves. Infact , it was after this series that the english seriously contemplated making him the captain for the ashes. Here goes another article "And then there is the captaincy. Andrew Flintoff acquitted himself so well as tactician and motivator that it is tempting to think that England can make do without Michael Vaughan. But there is a difference between captaining a side as a stand-in to taking the job full time." So a player contributes with the ball , the bat and captains too . Is it fair tocall him un-influential and over-rated ? Flintoff is England's top gun !

[Donny]

Numbers can be deceiving Donny. We all know he wasn't any great in the first few years but matured with age. Clearly he has the ability to bowl and bat. I've seen him make several good scores and also claim crucial wickets. Here is his break up and you can see he has chipped in with his bowling when he hasn't been able to contribute much with the bat and vice versa.]

'Chipping in' isn't the issue Ravi. I was replying to mm's somewhat over the top claim: "He can win/turn matches in a session" A player doesn't win/turn a match by 'chipping in'. Many cricket fans would be surprised to hear FF has only twice taken 5 wickets in an innings in Tests. Neither won the match for England.

[Ram]

Donny, Its a bit surprising that you wont agree with my claim that "Flintoff can turn/win matches in a session" It was one occasion against the Aussies that comes up as proof for this. In the second Ashes test at Edgbaston in 2005 , Australia , chasing 281 for victory , were a comfortable 47 for no loss after 12 overs. Flintoff was introduced into the attack and bowled what Mark Nicholas called " the over of the series". He took two vital wickets in that over , paving way for the english win. mevNWOCstZ4 In a single over , Flintoff completely changed the feel of the match and in the end , the series'.

[King]

'Chipping in' isn't the issue Ravi. I was replying to mm's somewhat over the top claim: "He can win/turn matches in a session" A player doesn't win/turn a match by 'chipping in'. Many cricket fans would be surprised to hear FF has only twice taken 5 wickets in an innings in Tests. Neither won the match for England.

On a second thought I may have to agree with what you are saying. He has only claimed 5 wickets in an inning twice in his career spanning nearly 10 years and 200 wickets. I'm also quite surprised to see he has no 100s to his credit in ODIs. I wouldn't reckon he is a match winner after having revisited his career figures. That simply doesn't look a match winning figures. I think he is one of those that chips in with bat and ball kind of players. I do agree Pommy media will make you believe every all rounder is an Ian Botham clone. I remember even Alex Tudor was built up to be the next Botham :tounge_smile:

[Donny]

mm, my question was, " When was the last time he won a match for England ?" Is that the best you can do ? When he bowled a good over, two years ago ? :regular_smile:

[Donny]

Incidentally, mm, I'm not asserting he's a dud (like Harmy). He's certainly a very handy player - just over rated as indicated by your statement.

[Ram]

mm, my question was, " When was the last time he won a match for England ?" Is that the best you can do ? When he bowled a good over, two years ago ? :regular_smile:

I never claimed that Flintoff was " the most consisten match-winner England had produced" . I believe he had the ability to a turn a test-match in a single session. And I gave that video as an example where he turned the match in a single over , let alone in a session. If he hadnt taken those wickets , Aus would have won in all probability. I also gave the third test in england's last tour to india as an example where flintoff took 3 vital wickets to start the collapse. I can give numerous other exapmles too , but i dont think its worth the effort. Now if the above two arent examples of turning a test-match , then I dunno what is.

[gator]

marirs, for tht matter, even Ganguly took two top order wickets in 2 balls which was match-turning against SA recently which helped us win the series.... i dont think, u can look for instances like this to identify real match winners...

[Ram]

marirs' date=' for tht matter, even Ganguly took two top order wickets in 2 balls which was match-turning against SA recently which helped us win the series.... i dont think, u can look for instances like this to identify real match winners...[/quote'] Well Gats, Flintoff was the performer of the match. He scored 68 in the english first innings total of 400-odd , got three wickets in the aussie first innings and when England batted the second time , he scored 73 in a total of 180 when no other batsman crossed 25. And not only did he stop with the 2 wickets in his first over in the Aussie 2nd innings ( which IMO , turned the match ,consid Aus lost by just 2 runs) and then went on to pick two more wickets ( including the crucial one of Warne , when he had managed to build a partnership) to finish with 4 wickets for the innings. Now , isnt this match-winning ?