That 122 by Tendulkar

[The Outsider]

Nothing can erode Tendulkar's greatness. Richards is considered among the best batsmen of all time despite having a very mediocre average and performances in the last quarter of his career.

[Gambit]

But his greatness has eroded quite a bit in the last few years and unless he manages to salvage something in the forthcoming years will merely finish his career as a very good player not a great one, IMO.

:hysterical:

Lara played like a great for almost his entire career.

:hysterical:

[Dhondy]

I hear you Bumps, but how can you ignore the quality of his batsmanship through the 90s? That incredible balance, the sheer beauty of those strokes, watching them again many years after they were played? You may argue that he has outstayed his welcome, and many would dispute that, given that none of the youngsters have exactly seized the opportunities afforded them, but there is no denying that for the best part of a decade, greatness was defined by that man. Why don't you read Ian Bell's interview given yesterday?

[Bumper]

Shwetabh, Viv first of all didnt have any Bangladesh & Zimbabwe to boost his averages and second, both him & Gavaskar were still match winners in the last 5 years of their resp careers. Check Viv's record against Australia, Pakistan & England in his last 5 years & see how many great knocks this man has produced. And Viv was Viv. He always induced fear in the opponents, until he called it quit.

[Predator_05]

Tendulkar could make ducks for the next 5 years, and he would still be the greatest cricketer this country has ever produced. Period.

[Bumper]

:hysterical:

:hysterical:

:hysterical:

:hysterical:

[The Outsider]

Shwetabh, Viv first of all didnt have any Bangladesh & Zimbabwe to boost his averages and second, both him & Gavaskar were still match winners in the last 5 years of his career. Check Viv's record against Australia, Pakistan & England in his last 5 years & see how many great knocks this man had produced.

Richards in his last 50 ODIs :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           187  167  24  6721 189* 181  153*  47.00  11  45   7
[/FONT][FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]filtered              50   43   4  1134 110*  78   60*  29.07   1   4   0[/FONT] 

Richards in his last 25 tests :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                     Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0

unfiltered           121  182  12  8540 291  232  208   50.23  24  45  10
filtered              25   38   3  1337 146  110   80   38.20   2  12   3[/FONT]

Ordinary by any standards you apply.

[The Outsider]

And Tendulkar has played many great innings in the last 5 years. Ask England, Australia, Pakistan.

[Ram]

But his greatness has eroded quite a bit in the last few years and unless he manages to salvage something in the forthcoming years will merely finish his career as a very good player not a great one, IMO.

Dont know what really to say to that , to be honest. Have seen some ridiculous criticism heaped on Sachin off late. This one takes the cake though.

[Bumper]

Richards in his last 50 ODIs :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                  Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0[/FONT]
 
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]unfiltered           187  167  24  6721 189* 181  153*  47.00  11  45   7[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]filtered              50   43   4  1134 110*  78   60*  29.07   1   4   0[/FONT] 

Richards in his last 25 tests :

[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]                  Mat    I  NO  Runs HS1  HS2  HS3     Ave 100  50   0[/FONT]
 
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]unfiltered           121  182  12  8540 291  232  208   50.23  24  45  10[/FONT]
[FONT=MONOSPACE,COURIER NEW,COURIER]filtered              25   38   3  1337 146  110   80   38.20   2  12   3[/FONT]

Ordinary by any standards you apply.

Viv in his last years: 5 50s in his last series against England (1991) 2 50s vs Australia (in his worst phase of his career) (1990/91) 4 50s, and a ton vs Aus in 1988/89 1 century & 2 50s (one 50+ & one 49) vs Pak in two tests in 1988 etc to list a few against his top opponents back then (Pak, Aus, Eng) These numbers tell me that Viv was still a potent match winner during his decline. Compare that with the numbers of Sachin vs SAF, Pak, Aus in the last 2 series he's played against them. You will hardly find a knock worthy of a great batsman, except for one or two.

[Bumper]

Dont know what really to say to that ' date=' to be honest. Have seen some ridiculous criticism heaped on Sachin off late. This one takes the cake though.[/quote'] Define greatness! If greatness = top 10 batsmen of all time and if Tendu struggles to make ends meet, with the bat in the next 3-4 years, he wont make that list. If OTOH, greatness = top 50, even Inzi & Moyo may make that list.

[The Outsider]

Let's look at the last 5 years of Tendulkar against these teams (using statsguru so I don't miss out on anything and get the numbers correct) : 1. 92, 193, and 54 against England 2. 241*, 60* and 55 against Australia 3. 194*, 94, 52, and 52, against Pakistan 4. 63 and 64 against South Africa and Tendulkar averages 10 points higher than Richards in his last year BTW, I am playing along with the Australia criteria you have chosen to humor you even though they were a $hitty side for most of the period you are talking about.

[Ram]

Define greatness! If greatness = top 10 batsmen of all time and if Tendu struggles to make ends meet, with the bat in the next 3-4 years, he wont make that list. If OTOH, greatness = top 50, even Inzi & Moyo may make that list.

Greatly doesnt merely lie in numbers and match-winning innings. It lies in the contribution made , the impact left behind. The things Sachin has done to Indian cricket , for him to have been the best batsman from 1996-2002 without even an iota of competition , all the centuries he rattled off as the rest of the Indian team succumbed like ponies. At its peak , his batting was an art , a sight to behold , a perfection in motion , an experiment gone totally right , a machine that needed no rest. Even the Don told Sachin reminded him of himself. I could go on and on and on heaping adjectives and phrases. But i shall stop here. You view has been shrouded by focus on numbers and stats. Remove those glasses of yours and see the big picture and you would realize why Sachin is the greatest cricketer ( let alone batsman) India has ever produced.

[The Outsider]

BTW, the innings also made me wonder what would have happened if India had Walsh and Ambrose instead of Srinath and Prasad.

[Bumper]

BTW, I am playing along with the Australia criteria you have chosen to humor you even though they were a $hitty side for most of the period you are talking about.

Yeah i see that you have played along very well by including 3 50s against a Malcolm Sami led attack (which was termed the worst ever Pak bowling lineup to land on Indian soil). But i wont fuss about it, to humour you.:haha:

Let's look at the last 5 years of Tendulkar against these teams (using statsguru so I don't miss out on anything and get the numbers correct) : 1. 92, 193, and 54 against England 2. 241*, 60* and 55 against Australia 3. 194*, 94, 52, and 52, against Pakistan 4. 63 and 64 against South Africa

I too seeked stats guru's help so i dont miss anything in Viv's last 5 years Viv has 17 50s & 3 100s in his last 5 years against Eng, Pak, Aus. Tendu has 2 100s, 7 50s against Aus, Pak, SAF in his last 5 years And this without even considering how they played their game and what impact the knock may have had on the course of the game.

[Bumper]

You view has been shrouded by focus on numbers and stats. Remove those glasses of yours and see the big picture and you would realize why Sachin is the greatest cricketer ( let alone batsman) India has ever produced.

I never disputed that.

[ali0786]

That innings was definetely a great one..that was the first time ive seen highlights of a tendulkar century in an away series...that innings led me to watch his 169 against south africa...he looked in total command, fully confident in every beautiful shot that he played...it was very weird seeing him getting out like the way he did yesterday..a few years ago, that ball would have gone to the boundary 9 out 10 times.

[Dhondy]

That innings was definetely a great one..that was the first time ive seen highlights of a tendulkar century in an away series...that innings led me to watch his 169 against south africa...he looked in total command' date=' fully confident in every beautiful shot that he played...it was very weird seeing him getting out like the way he did yesterday..a few years ago, that ball would have gone to the boundary 9 out 10 times.[/quote'] And that's our agony, Ali. The great man is almost gone, there's nobody to replace him, and we are desperately clinging on to memories of his greatness in the hope that somehow, magically, he'll turn back the years and bat like that 23 year old genius at Edgbaston.

[The Outsider]

Viv has 17 50s & 3 100s in his last 5 years against Eng, Pak, Aus. Tendu has 2 100s, 7 50s against Aus, Pak, SAF in his last 5 years

Why are you conveniently omitting England. They are a better side than South Africa or Pakistan and a better side than Australia were in Richards' time. In fact, Sri Lanka are at least as good a test side as Australia in the period you are talking about. But that doesn't suit your argument. And also check the size of the hundreds Tendulkar has 241*, 194*, and 193. Richards' highest score was 146 against an attack of Lawson, Hughes, Donemaide, Waugh, and May. Even after taking out BD, Tendulkar averages higher than Richards did in his last 5 years.

[Bumper]

U include England, it doesnt make any difference. Still Viv comes out on top interms of 50s & 100s (which is what is expected of greats to win test matches, not averages) And SL has been our biyatches at home forever. Even Engerland has won a test in India. What has SL done to us, to command respect as a test side ? Tendulkar is all about numbers & averages. Whichever way u slice & dice it, i know the effect of those two 50s (against SA) on the game & how he vamoosed in the all important 3rd test, 2nd innings. For every 122 that makes me wanna believe Tendu is a great player there is a Bangalore or a Karachi or a Capetown test that offsets my perspective. Can u imagine a Viv walking out to play an innings like Tendu did in Capetown ? I'll never forgive him for that!