India outplayed by england.

[Ram]

Just thought would post some of my thoughts on today's match . Not good enough to be an article , so here it goes , in the cric discussions. Firstly , the margin of victory suggests we have been out-cricketed by england in all three departments of the game - Batting, bowling and fielding. That is a worrying thing , because if the gap is too big , it is not that easy to bridge it. A lot of news space would be allocated to Dravid's decision to bowl first. He may have thought the early swing in the afternoon may help his bowlers to get some wickets and to be fair to him , the ball did do a bit early. Unfortunately , we didnt pick as many early wickets as we wanted to. From then on , it would have been england's game. They were in a position to decide at what pace they score to get to a particular score. Considering the conditions , 288 was a very challenging score. Though one might not have expected India to over-haul the target easily , the mute manner in which they folded would raise a lot of eye-brows. The batting mis-fired totally , with absolutely no momentum in the innings at all , at any point of time. A score of 28/2 in 10 overs may suggest some bad Indian batting , but it would also suggest - Batting conditions werent that easy. In hindsight , India's decision to bowl first might have actually cost us the match. This is not a lame attempt to pin the blame on anyone , but mere speculation. India's slowness on the field was too glaring to endure. The age factor that many critics have pointed out has finally begun to kick in. Is it time to overreact ? Absolutely no . Is it time to introspect ? Hell yeah ! We need to get our combination right , especially when it comes to the top-order batting. The team would probably make one change to batting in the next ODI , with Uthappa/Gambhir opening and one of Sachin or Ganguly moving down. One cant possibly make sweeping changes based on one bad performance , but its time to pull up the socks for India.

[King]

Told ya Sriram India is not a good ODI unit. The team on paper looks great but when they get on the ground you know they are really short of skill for ODIs. I don't mind that as long as they keep winning the test series.

[fineleg]

The article's (relatively) mild tone is very charitable towards our players. They are fortunate to have fans like Sriram who can control themselves and keep faith, after seeing this hopeless performance. Well, hope they improve and prove the faith you have placed in the Maharathis.

[Ram]

Told ya Sriram India is not a good ODI unit. The team on paper looks great but when they get on the ground you know they are really short of skill for ODIs. I don't mind that as long as they keep winning the test series.

Ravi , i think you are being a bit hasty here. Why not all of us wait till the series gets over before we come to conclusions ? But one thing i must admit - the fact that the match was NEVER a contest worries me a lot.

[Ram]

The article's (relatively) mild tone is very charitable towards our players. They are fortunate to have fans like Sriram who can control themselves and keep faith, after seeing this hopeless performance. Well, hope they improve and prove the faith you have placed in the Maharathis.

Comon F'leg ! How can you come to ANY judgments based on one performance ? Is unbashed criticism the "In-thing" of being a cricket fan ?

[Cricketics]

i thought Dravid and dhoni had a good decent p'ship.. when they were batting it never looked we are out of this.. just when dhoni knicked one to prior, game started slipping.. Dhoni was trying to settle himself so that he could go bang after next 5-10 overs when the score on teh board is bit better.. just didn't go our way then..

[fineleg]

Sriram, I've said this in a prior post: Win or loss is ok. It is the pathetic, spineless, not-being-100% committed - That is the big issue I have with the Ind team. Separate the TEST perf from ODI perf. So, leave behind the Test series win. ODIs are here and now. regarding your query about "judgments based on one performance"... Sorry this is not based on today's perf. This is not a one-off for India. We have been experts in such spineless perf ever since a long time, WC-07 is a big example (Champions trophy, etc etc) (Forget Bangladesh series, I dont rate that much). Unabashed criticism: No...unless this team dramatically improves and turn things around, this is extremely well directed harsh criticism.

[Ram]

We will see very soon, who is vindicated and who isnt. I for one , wont mind if we lose this series BADLY and we start replacing the oldies with some fresh legs.

[Predator_05]

Told ya Sriram India is not a good ODI unit. The team on paper looks great but when they get on the ground you know they are really short of skill for ODIs. .

True. Too many old f@rts. Look at England's ODI team - their average age must be a good 4 years less than India's. Besides, if India lose this series (by a big margin) it shouldn't come as a surprise. Why ? Because over the last year, this team has done F*CK ALL away from home. They destroyed everyone on home soil, but the moment they arrived on foreign shores, they looked like a shadow of their domineering selves. Check out their recent record away from home; in WI - lost 4-1 in Malaysia - won 1 match vs WI, lost twice to them and lost every match to AUS in SA - lost 4-0 in the WC - lost to Banglastan and SL Let's not forget the ICCT, very un-Indian pitches in the sense that they were bowler-friendly. India were dumped out in the first round after losing to WI and then AUS. Then surprise surprise, the moment India started playing at home - first vs WI and then vs SL - the batsmen suddenly came into form and started stacking up the massive 300+ totals. The fact is, on flat pitches where you can just plonk your front foot forward and hit through the line, it's easy to score. Too bad the Indian batsmen don't get that luxury away from home where the pitches do a bit more and the outfields aren't as quick (notice how slow today's pitch was) - thereby minimizing their chances to score cheap runs. People may point to the victory over SA in the Future Cup but let's face facts - it was the toss that won all three matches. In every game, the ball did more in the first innings than it did in the 2nd and the side chasing always had an advantage. England may be a crappy side, but bear in mind that the last time India toured England in 2004 for the Natwest Challenge, they came back humiliated after 2 HEAVY defeats - defeats similar to the one seen today at Southampton. India are certainly up against it and have a hell of a lot to prove. As of right now, this ODI team gives me the impression that they are not good enough to win away from home. I hope they prove me wrong and improve their pitiful away record in the process

[King]

Ravi , i think you are being a bit hasty here. Why not all of us wait till the series gets over before we come to conclusions ? But one thing i must admit - the fact that the match was NEVER a contest worries me a lot.

I agree I'm speaking a bit too soon here but as I have often said you cannot count India as one of the better ODI teams for several reasons. 1. Opening : Most often you will see the openers settling down for a long inning which isn't wrong but if the top 4 is going to anchor how the heck is the team going to use the power play? You need at least one explosive opener if not two that plays with gay abandon. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. 2. Middle order : Yuvraj comes at no.5, Dhoni at no.6 and Karthik at no.7 That is a flawed plot. You don't want the likes of Dhoni to be picking up single in the middle overs. We all know Dhoni is very effective either during the power plays or towards the end of the inning. Why can't Indian think tank even see that? 3. Karthik is better off at the top of the inning as he is capable of picking singles and also is capable of going over the top. Now unlike Dhoni he isn't the one to score in sixes. Now what is the point in having Karthik bat at no.7? Definitely he isn't as capable as Dhoni when it comes to scoring quick runs. 4. Far too many anchors in the team and not enough explosive batters either in the top or lower middle order. Unless they tinker the batting order India will often lose in ODIs. 5. Less said about the fielding the better. It is not the bowling that has caused grief in ODIs but the batting. The team is either unable to put enough runs or is unable to chase big totals. I don't reckon there is a fix for it for now considering the team make up. I hope the results in the next 6 ODIs change but I can't see that happening.

[fineleg]

We will see very soon, who is vindicated and who isnt. I for one , wont mind if we lose this series BADLY and we start replacing the oldies with some fresh legs.

The facking BCCI wont do anything drastic - even if we lose badly. Unless Maharathis resign from ODIs themselves, they will "rest" them and then keep selecting them. "very soon" - we cannot see vindication. Let them (with or without Mahas) play for 1-year and be reasonably consistent. Then we can see. Vindication will be known after Aussie tour. Then we can have a detailed talk abt who is vindicated :-)

[Ram]

Let's not forget the ICCT, very un-Indian pitches in the sense that they were bowler-friendly. India were dumped out in the first round after losing to WI and then AUS. Then surprise surprise, the moment India started playing at home - first vs WI and then vs SL - the batsmen suddenly came into form and started stacking up the massive 300+ totals. The fact is, on flat pitches where you can just plonk your front foot forward and hit through the line, it's easy to score. Too bad the Indian batsmen don't get that luxury away from home where the pitches do a bit more and the outfields aren't as quick (notice how slow today's pitch was) - thereby minimizing their chances to score cheap runs.

Most of pitches that are made for ODIs are batsman friendly nowadays.

[Predator_05]

Most of pitches that are made for ODIs are batsman friendly nowadays.

Batsman-friendly for the home side. You don't get dead dustbowls anywhere outside the subcontinent. Explain to me, why hasn't this Indian won anything away from home recently ? Why do they look so good at home and then look so sh*t away from home ?

[Ram]

The facking BCCI wont do anything drastic - even if we lose badly. Unless Maharathis resign from ODIs themselves, they will "rest" them and then keep selecting them. "very soon" - we cannot see vindication. Let them (with or without Mahas) play for 1-year and be reasonably consistent. Then we can see. Vindication will be known after Aussie tour. Then we can have a detailed talk abt who is vindicated :-)

So what you are suggesting is , lets play without all the big guns for a year and see what happens ?

[King]

Most of pitches that are made for ODIs are batsman friendly nowadays.

Please remember when India won all those ODIs guys like Dhoni, Pathan and Uthappa batted at the top of the order. I'm sure you acknowledge India lacks fire power in batting in ODIs.

[Ram]

Batsman-friendly for the home side. You don't get dead dustbowls anywhere outside the subcontinent. Explain to me, why hasn't this Indian won anything away from home recently ? Why do they look so good at home and then look so sh*t away from home ?

Batsman friendly for the home side ? What does that mean ? A bowler friendly pitch , is bowler friendly for both the sides. If there are swinging conditions, the Indian bowlers can exploit it too. I see that you have listed the Windies , Malaysia and the world cup as the examples where we sucked big time. I have no excuses to offer , other than to say - That was when things started going horribly wrong under Chappell.

[Ram]

Please remember when India won all those ODIs guys like Dhoni' date=' Pathan and Uthappa batted at the top of the order. I'm sure you acknowledge India lacks fire power in batting in ODIs.[/quote'] Lets list all the prominent ODI playing countries Ravi. India - batsman friendly SL - batsman friendly Pak - batsman friendly BD - batsman friendly Windies - not so batsman friendly , but def not bowler friendly either Aus - batsman friendly for ODIs surely Saffies- Good quality pitches for ODIs England and NZ - These two countries are where it could swing around a bit. But their endeavor would also be to get high-scoring encounters. We dont that many bowler friendly pitches for ODIs Ravi.

[fineleg]

Batsman friendly for the home side ? What does that mean ? A bowler friendly pitch , is bowler friendly for both the sides. If there are swinging conditions, the Indian bowlers can exploit it too. I see that you have listed the Windies , Malaysia and the world cup as the examples where we sucked big time. I have no excuses to offer , other than to say - That was when things started going horribly wrong under Chappell.

GC or not, the team has been sucking in ODIs and we better turn it around in Eng, or we can put shoe-garlands for our big-shot players. Shape up, or ship out.

[Predator_05]

Batting on pitches in the subcontinent (in ODI's anyway) is a hell of a lot easier than batting anywhere else. I shouldn't even need to point this out

I see that you have listed the Windies ' date=' Malaysia and the world cup as the examples where we sucked big time. I have no excuses to offer , other than to say - That was when things started going horribly wrong under Chappell.[/quote'] That sounds like an excuse to me. Chappell wasn't the one batting and bowling. It was the same personnel that kept f*cking up - thoroughly outplayed by any team they faced. Face it, this team just isn't good enough to win away from home - the records prove it

[Ram]

Predz, Just so that we can do some to-the-point analysis , can you list me countries that you would consider " Home" or "away" ? Does away mean , all countries outsider India , or does it mean non-subcontinental conditions ?