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King Tendulkar

Dhoni should be sacked as captain in all 3 formats!

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Arrey bhai ' date='rkt bhai soch rahe the ke kumble sahaab kaptan the mohali mein.[/quote'] Nahi main puch raha tha ke agar Delhi flat track hai to Mohali kya hai? Mohali is flatter than Delhi. Delhi is low, tough to bat, turns too. Mohali is batting paradise most of the time, same for Nagpur.

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:hysterical::hysterical: There seems to be lot of confusion on this page of thread. Start from top of page and you won't understand who is answering what..
KT's thread - What else do you expect? :dontknow:

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Nahi main puch raha tha ke agar Delhi flat track hai to Mohali kya hai? Mohali is flatter than Delhi. Delhi is low' date=' tough to bat, turns to. Mohali is batting paradise most of the time, same for Nagpur.[/quote'] yep mhali was good track few years ago had something for bowlers but now its flat track u can still get results its not as flat as some other grounds but for teams outside of subcontinent delhi is def harder

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Nahi main puch raha tha ke agar Delhi flat track hai to Mohali kya hai? Mohali is flatter than Delhi. Delhi is low' date=' tough to bat, turns to. Mohali is batting paradise most of the time, same for Nagpur.[/quote'] Mohali still has bounce and it roughed off it helped our bowlers get reverswing along with turn for mishra ,same at nagpur .delhi had some grass which helped swing at first if you remember lee got some early wickets but it turned out to be a batting paradise and there was less reverse swing if i remember.

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Team has been in downward spiral for last one and half years and nothing should be done to Dhoni. India lost 8 test matches but Dhoni can not be blamed because he was forced to have budaaoos in team and then we got rid of budhaoos. Now in team which played here, there was no budaoos, still we lost. Now we need to get rid of second wave of budaoos like Gambhir, Sehwag, Zaheer and Bhajji. Then third wave and so on. But nothing should be done to Dhoni's captaincy. Why,? Because what Dhoni can do if team is incompetent. Are if Dhoni can't do any thing as captain, why he is captain? To show his expertise in toss?
So now a purist cares about T20 more than test matches! We won against NZ without so called budhaoos but you did not mentioned that. Losing 2 test series should be enough to remove the captain who led us to no.1 rankings? If you are blaming MS for the losses, fine but then he should also be given credit for the wins.

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u forgot AF that was also big win :haha: Ind didnt win VS england in a proper way, ENG lost themself so that they dont play big teams & paki & ind for contract what i think in WC to loose everytime winning against SA by 1 run???? thats a big win .. we know we hve to win atleast by 30 odd runs then score atlease 180-200 i think Dhoni should be rested as captaincy for test. nothin else or he can do pastic surgury of his face, i dont wanna c him :eviltongue: why dont u agree he did *****ed up captaincy in SA match
Lol. What a joke of a post! Ind did not win against Eng in proper way and Eng lost on purpose?? :hysterical: We phuckin murdered them by 90 runs! Contract of Ind-Pak games, are you mad or what? And i cant even understand half of what u r trying to say, please improve your language skills and then we can proceed.

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Yes Dhoni should not be captain in tests, but should still play tests. He scored most runs for India after Kohli and Pujara against NZ, played some crucial innings, scored more runs than both openers and the greatest batsman of all time, and I doubt there is any better WK/batsman than him at least when we play tests in India. Now, what are the options for test captaincy? Bring them on.

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Ignoring media clamour is Dhoni’s best decision

Dhoni learnt a lesson in captaincy early in his career – do exactly what you want to, and thanks to the millions, including former players, who have an opinion on everything he does, there will be enough people who support him. This is a superbly mature attitude, and served him well in the unnecessary debate over the dropping of Virender Sehwag for the match against Australia. It was a move criticised by the likes of Sunil Gavaskar and Rahul Dravid, but supported by Sourav Ganguly. It is difficult to imagine Dhoni not being aware of this, but it shouldn’t matter, and in his case it doesn’t. The cricket captain is the supreme arbiter of what to do, whom to pick and drop in a team, and it is best left that way. If 43 percent of the viewers of a particular television channel think it was the wrong move (and 29 percent don’t give a rodent’s posterior either way), that should be of no concern to the captain. :laugh: It will be a dark day for sport if, like some politicians, cricket captains tailor-make their decisions for television. It is not unheard of in Indian sport. The previous selection committee pushed Yuvraj Singh into big cricket prematurely on his return from illness in what was a populist move. For rising above such considerations, and going with the team he thinks is best suited to win a match, Dhoni has to be admired. If he doesn’t watch television or read the newspapers, good for him. Frankly, he is not missing much.
http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/ignoring-media-clamour-dhonis-decision/28435

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Yes Dhoni should not be captain in tests, but should still play tests. He scored most runs for India after Kohli and Pujara against NZ, played some crucial innings, scored more runs than both openers and the greatest batsman of all time, and I doubt there is any better WK/batsman than him at least when we play tests in India. Now, what are the options for test captaincy? Bring them on.
How can he play tests if he is not the captain? Outside of India he is poor. In India he might score a few runs here and there, but will still fail more often than not. Dhoni is not a test calibre batsman nor is he a good enough keeper to ignore the shortfall in his batting.

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Yes Dhoni should not be captain in tests, but should still play tests. He scored most runs for India after Kohli and Pujara against NZ, played some crucial innings, scored more runs than both openers and the greatest batsman of all time, and I doubt there is any better WK/batsman than him at least when we play tests in India. Now, what are the options for test captaincy? Bring them on.
Agreed. But the problem is other options include Gambhir who is not even a certainty in the eleven. Sehwag will be the most probable successor , followed by Virat in 2 years time.

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How can he play tests if he is not the captain? Outside of India he is poor. In India he might score a few runs here and there' date=' but will still fail more often than not. Dhoni is not a test calibre batsman nor is he a good enough keeper to ignore the shortfall in his batting.[/quote'] I guess you did not watch NZ series. Only 3 batsmen scored runs Pujara, Kohli, and Dhoni. You forgot his partnership with Kohli in second innings to win the match. Find one other Wk/bat who can score even that many runs first.

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I dont see why it is seen as an insult to ask for his removal?he was wonderful before 2011 WC.2 WCs,CB series,tied series in SA n two home series wins v Aus are magnificent achievements.those who r denying it are absolute idiots n should switch to football or something. having said that,everyone has a shelf life,wen he was appointed,we always feared it was too much of a workload,but since he was delivering it was okay,but now wen it isnt happening,n now its a fair period for which its not happening,why is it wrong to ask for him to be relieved of some of his duties?it'll only help him n his hair about options,who knew Dhoni would be so good,wen he was appointed,he was also young n more importantly had ZERO captaincy experience.Virat,Sehwag,Gauti atleast have captaincy experience at IPL n U-19 in Virats case. another reason why I want Virat is because I sense there r groupings in the team n that environments its best to appoint someone who is liked by everyone.if we r about Virat's batting I dont think thats an issue,he seems the man to enjoy big responsibility.again,we had similar fearswith Dhoni because we couldnt afford to lose our only decent WK batsman but still took the risk.so why not?

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Yes - So my question still remains. Which was the last captain to be dropped for losing a home series? CG says that that is what happens usually in India - I want some explanation as to why he said that.
Azhar - Dropped for Match Fixing Tendulkar - Stepped Away Ganguly - Dropped after drawing series with Pakistan Dravid - Stepped Away Kumble - Retired When was the last time a captain was changed after we lose a home series? :hmmm:
Azhar was removed after losing the Asian Test Championship, which though technically was not a home series was pretty close considering we lost the test against Pakistan at Calcutta. Ganguly was on his last legs not for losing, but just failing to win the series against Pakistan. He captained the Zimbabwe series after that, but things with Chappell and his form went southwards there. And LOL! at people calling Mohali some patta just to make their argument. Over the past few years, the test wicket has offered excellent conditions for reverse swing and spin. Except for the weather effected test against England in 2008 all the recent tests against England in 2006 and against Australia in 2008 and 2010 have been excellent tests with bowlers getting a fair share of help.

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I dont see why it is seen as an insult to ask for his removal?he was wonderful before 2011 WC.2 WCs,CB series,tied series in SA n two home series wins v Aus are magnificent achievements.those who r denying it are absolute idiots n should switch to football or something. having said that,everyone has a shelf life,wen he was appointed,we always feared it was too much of a workload,but since he was delivering it was okay,but now wen it isnt happening,n now its a fair period for which its not happening,why is it wrong to ask for him to be relieved of some of his duties?it'll only help him n his hair about options,who knew Dhoni would be so good,wen he was appointed,he was also young n more importantly had ZERO captaincy experience.Virat,Sehwag,Gauti atleast have captaincy experience at IPL n U-19 in Virats case. another reason why I want Virat is because I sense there r groupings in the team n that environments its best to appoint someone who is liked by everyone.if we r about Virat's batting I dont think thats an issue,he seems the man to enjoy big responsibility.again,we had similar fearswith Dhoni because we couldnt afford to lose our only decent WK batsman but still took the risk.so why not?
It is not an insult to anyone, but what is the option we have to replace him. I cannot find any at this time. Let Kohli prepare himself for that in the next 1 year or so.

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How can he play tests if he is not the captain? Outside of India he is poor. In India he might score a few runs here and there' date= but will still fail more often than not.Dhoni is not a test calibre batsman nor is he a good enough keeper to ignore the shortfall in his batting.
Yeah right. Better to have a More or Mongia ver 2.0 :--D

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Azhar was removed after losing the Asian Test Championship, which though technically was not a home series was pretty close considering we lost the test against Pakistan at Calcutta. Ganguly was on his last legs not for losing, but just failing to win the series against Pakistan. He captained the Zimbabwe series after that, but things with Chappell and his form went southwards there. And LOL! at people calling Mohali some patta just to make their argument. Over the past few years, the test wicket has offered excellent conditions for reverse swing and spin. Except for the weather effected test against England in 2008 all the recent tests against England in 2006 and against Australia in 2008 and 2010 have been excellent tests with bowlers getting a fair share of help.
If Delhi can be patta then Mohali is as patta as anyone can get. Reverse swing does not happen because pitch offers assistance but because of the open stadium in Mohali which lets the wind blowing to help reverse.

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I guess you did not watch NZ series. Only 3 batsmen scored runs Pujara' date= Kohli, and Dhoni. You forgot his partnership with Kohli in second innings to win the match. Find one other Wk/bat who can score even that many runs first.
Sehwag? :hmmm:

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If Delhi can be patta then Mohali is as patta as anyone can get. Reverse swing does not happen because pitch offers assistance but because of the open stadium in Mohali which lets the wind blowing to help reverse.
Yeah, the wind scuffs up the ball for reverse swing? Stop talking BS. In general, Kotla offers more for bowlers and in particular spinners than Mohali but if you are talking about the 2008 series then go and watch the matches again and get back as to which pitch was flatter that year.

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Very few people can handle captaincy in India. Its a very high pressure, high stress job. There will be criticism for each and every thing a captain does and after every defeat, media and rabid fans will ask for his head. The shelf life of being India's captain is very low and everyone from Sachin, Dravid, Kumble have experienced it. It usually has a big impact on how the player plays, so if Kohli becomes captain, you can be rest assured his batting will go down. Is this what we want to happen to our best batsmen ? Dhoni despite his mistakes has done reasonably well and has been the most successful of India's captains. India has won a 50 over World Cup and World T20 under his captaincy, took India to No.1 in test rankings and has been very consistent in ODIs and tests at home. He has learnt how to handle the pressure from fans and media and also continues to be an excellent batsman and finisher in ODIs and a decent enough batsman in Tests for a wicket keeper. So I think he should continue.

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Yeah right. Better to have a More or Mongia ver 2.0 :--D
That fact that Dhoni bhakth samaj has to constantly allude to Mongia to deflect any criticism of his test batting shows how much confidence they have on him. :laugh: Its like bringing up Akash Chopra everytime you criticize Sehwag's batting Saha should be given a chance. Wont do any worse than Dhoni in batting and is a much better keeper

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Yeah, the wind scuffs up the ball for reverse swing? Stop talking BS. In general, Kotla offers more for bowlers and in particular spinners than Mohali but if you are talking about the 2008 series then go and watch the matches again and get back as to which pitch was flatter that year.
I watched the series and there was not much difference between the two pitches. Other than that, Mohali pitch mostly consist of dry grass and ball scruffs up because of the ground and with wind it reverses more than on any other ground.

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It is not an insult to anyone' date=' but what is the option we have to replace him. I cannot find any at this time. Let Kohli prepare himself for that in the next 1 year or so.[/quote'] how does one prepare tio be captain? I say give him T20 or even ODI captaincy n atleast vice captaincy for tests

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I watched the series and there was not much difference between the two pitches.
You are just making up things. Kotla that year was an absolute road. All you need to do is to watch day 4 of both tests when Australia were well on their way to 600 runs after replying to India's 600 with Clarke, Haddin, White all batting comfortably and then watch the turn and reverse swing the entire Indian team got at Mohali on day 4. You've got to be blind to say there was not much difference.
Other than that, Mohali pitch mostly consist of dry grass and ball scruffs up because of the ground and with wind it reverses more than on any other ground.
But you were saying Mohali is the flattest pitch. Now it's the ground where you get most reverse.

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You are just making up things. Kotla that year was an absolute road. All you need to do is to watch day 4 of both tests when Australia were well on their way to 600 runs after replying to India's 600 with Clarke, Haddin, White all batting comfortably and then watch the turn and reverse swing the entire Indian team got at Mohali on day 4. You've got to be blind to say there was not much difference. But you were saying Mohali is the flattest pitch. Now it's the ground where you get most reverse.
I said ground conditions help the ball reverse, not just pitch. I did watch the match, yes there was reverse swing and there was some turn too but slow and not exaggerated. It was reverse swing that helped our pacers in that match mostly.

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That fact that Dhoni bhakth samaj has to constantly allude to Mongia to deflect any criticism of his test batting shows how much confidence they have on him. :laugh: Its like bringing up Akash Chopra everytime you criticize Sehwag's batting Saha should be given a chance. Wont do any worse than Dhoni in batting and is a much better keeper
Tumne to dil pe le liya yaar. "Non Test calibre" players should be compared to the available benchmarks and in one of the threads, it had already been established by you that both Mongia and More were better than Dhoni, hence the comparison.

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I said ground conditions help the ball reverse' date=' not just pitch. I did watch the match, yes there was reverse swing and there was some turn too but slow and not exaggerated. It was reverse swing that helped our pacers in that match mostly.[/quote'] So, you agree that the Mohali pitch suited bowlers more than Kotla in that series - that was all the initial point being made was. For the purpose of this discussion I don't see how it's relevant whether the ground or pitch helps reverse swing. The only point being made was that in 2008 Mohali offered more to the bowlers than Kotla. And you just need to watch day 4 of each test to see the difference.

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So' date=' you agree that the Mohali pitch suited bowlers more than Kotla in that series - that was all the initial point being made was. For the purpose of this discussion I don't see how it's relevant whether the ground or pitch helps reverse swing. The only point being made was that in 2008 Mohali offered more to the bowlers than Kotla. And you just need to watch day 4 of each test to see the difference.[/quote'] Dont forget, pitch is same for both the teams and my argument was not just about Mohali. I had included Nagpur in it as well. Even in Bengalore, pitch had help for our bowlers, but we struggled big time there. Is it not just about help in the pitch, not how they used that help.

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So now a purist cares about T20 more than test matches! We won against NZ without so called budhaoos but you did not mentioned that. Losing 2 test series should be enough to remove the captain who led us to no.1 rankings? If you are blaming MS for the losses, fine but then he should also be given credit for the wins.
you have to bring India's is test win over mighty NZ on home pitches shows how bereft of any credible argument you are. Let me know how many instances are there when India lost a home test series to NZ , in entire cricketing history? Also can you say honestly that India would have lost this series without Dhoni or Dhoni capataincy. Stop making these stupid statements that Dhoni took India to no. 1 ranking. India was ranked no 3 when Dhoni took over and now he took us to situation that only test powerhouses like SL, WI, NZ and Bangladesh are behind us.

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Tumne to dil pe le liya yaar. "Non Test calibre" players should be compared to the available benchmarks and in one of the threads, it had already been established by you that both Mongia and More were better than Dhoni, hence the comparison.
Maine kahan dil pe liya :dontknow: Can you quote the post where I said both Mongia and More are better test batsmen than Dhoni? Otherwise this is just a strawman that Dhoni bhakts have created to deflect any criticism of his batting. Like I said, its just like bringing up Akash Chopra and Wasim Jaffer when you criticize Sehwag :giggle:

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Dont forget' date=' pitch is same for both the teams and my argument was not just about Mohali. I had included Nagpur in it as well. Even in Bengalore, pitch had help for our bowlers, but we struggled big time there. Is it not just about help in the pitch, not how they used that help.[/quote'] I don't believe you watched that series and are making such statements. Nagpur was turning from day one. Krejza was getting it to turn even before lunch on day 1 when he got Sehwag and Dravid. You are totally discounting the fact that the Indian batting line up was at the top of their game during that series and when guys of that caliber are playing well they are obviously going to score runs in any conditions. Yeah, Bangalore had help for the bowlers but we had a first innings collapse there and failed to get a par score. It just doesn't make sense to say Dhoni is a great captain because we won 2 tests and Kumble is not because we drew two tests. You have to look at the reasons behind the results. And Nagpur, I would agree that Dhoni played a big part in the win with his captaincy. But to say we would have won at Bangalore and Kotla as well doesn't make sense. Anyhow, that is from 4 years back. I would love to have Dhoni captain the way he did at Nagpur, but he is past it now. And that is the point of discussion. Not his past achievements but his future as captain of the side.

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under the leadership of?:--D
MS Dhoni - I am just mentioning the facts. Just like, he's not performing in T20s and should not be the captain and probably not be part of the team as well. But, at the same time let us not create 2 + 2 =5 situation. It's like one of those instances where you do not appreciate what you have and want to 'jump'. Some people are making it sound that home win against NZ is halwa. Come to think of it, even in the 1999 series against NZ we struggled to get past them in Test matches.

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I don't believe you watched that series and are making such statements. Nagpur was turning from day one. Krejza was getting it to turn even before lunch on day 1 when he got Sehwag and Dravid. You are totally discounting the fact that the Indian batting line up was at the top of their game during that series and when guys of that caliber are playing well they are obviously going to score runs in any conditions. Yeah, Bangalore had help for the bowlers but we had a first innings collapse there and failed to get a par score. It just doesn't make sense to say Dhoni is a great captain because we won 2 tests and Kumble is not because we drew two tests. You have to look at the reasons behind the results. And Nagpur, I would agree that Dhoni played a big part in the win with his captaincy. But to say we would have won at Bangalore and Kotla as well doesn't make sense. Anyhow, that is from 4 years back. I would love to have Dhoni captain the way he did at Nagpur, but he is past it now. And that is the point of discussion. Not his past achievements but his future as captain of the side.
At one time, on a turning pitch, Aussie were 189/1 in 35 overs in their first innings when we got out of 355 in our first innings. and the bold part is what I wanted to see. So you agree that Indian batting was at the top at that time and Dhoni did not have to do much to win those tests. Now apply the same on 8-0 loss where our batting was at its worst and Dhoni had to everything.

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At one time, on a turning pitch, Aussie were 189/1 in 35 overs in their first innings when we got out of 355 in our first innings. and the bold part is what I wanted to see. So you agree that Indian batting was at the top at that time and Dhoni did not have to do much to win those tests. Now apply the same on 8-0 loss where our batting was at its worst and Dhoni had to everything.
Must say well played :hatsoff:

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As WK - pagla gaya hai kya? As captain :nono: too early for Virat and Sehwag is more OUT than IN
I meant Virat for T20/ODIs n Sehwag for tests.I dont see Sehwag's position under threat,the most we can think of is dropping him down the order.have him for a couple of years before it is not too early for Virat. I think Virat is ready now,but lets leave it:--D

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At one time, on a turning pitch, Aussie were 189/1 in 35 overs in their first innings when we got out of 355 in our first innings.
And I've credited Dhoni for it. However, that was 4 years back. Do you see that kind of captaincy from Dhoni today?
and the bold part is what I wanted to see. So you agree that Indian batting was at the top at that time and Dhoni did not have to do much to win those tests. Now apply the same on 8-0 loss where our batting was at its worst and Dhoni had to everything.
We've toured with worse batting and bowling attacks(form wise, not on paper) during my days of watching cricket and have never been hammered 0-8. The Lords' and Nottingham tests in England and the Melbourne and Perth tests in Australia could have had different results with a better captain, not all of them but it could have been 2-6 or 1-6 with a better captain.

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And I've credited Dhoni for it. However, that was 4 years back. Do you see that kind of captaincy from Dhoni today? We've toured with worse batting and bowling attacks(form wise, not on paper) during my days of watching cricket and have never been hammered 0-8. The Lords' and Nottingham tests in England and the Melbourne and Perth tests in Australia could have had different results with a better captain, not all of them but it could have been 2-6 or 1-6 with a better captain.
I dont see that captaincy from Dhoni now and that is why I want a new captain but I dont see a better option. Thing is people are so quick to dismiss his achievements saying that was because he had great players in the team that is the only issue I have. He is not good enough right now because he takes unusual decisions, unusual tactics, have been stubborn sometimes, that are not paying off, but he was always like that, but those things paid off then. He has mostly been instinctive, less tactical. He has never been bowler's captain, especially, he rarely gave any advice or confidence to young fast bowlers. We can barely say we developed this fast bowler during his captaincy because he is least concerned about that. He is the kind of captain who will handle what he has at his disposal happily rather than developing anyone out of the scene. Regarding, 8-0, I think these 8 tests were our worst batting performance overseas in last 20 years.

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I dont see that captaincy from Dhoni now and that is why I want a new captain but I dont see a better option. Thing is people are so quick to dismiss his achievements saying that was because he had great players in the team that is the only issue I have. He is not good enough right now because he takes unusual decisions, unusual tactics, have been stubborn sometimes, that are not paying off, but he was always like that, but those things paid off then. He has mostly been instinctive, less tactical. He has never been bowler's captain, especially, he rarely gave any advice or confidence to young fast bowlers. We can barely say we developed this fast bowler during his captaincy because he is least concerned about that. He is the kind of captain who will handle what he has at his disposal happily rather than developing anyone out of the scene. Regarding, 8-0, I think these 8 tests were our worst batting performance overseas in last 20 years.
Nothing explains Dhoni better than this. Good post! :two_thumbs_up:

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We have a situation here where many Indian fans just want the team to fail so they can say Dhoni needs to leave. We have a situation where whenever we win, it is seen as assumed and nothing worth to praise ( eg. posts on how Indian home performances should not matter). We have plenty of glory hunters then whom fail to see any progress and instead just want all the glory. With these kind of attitude, what the use of changing the captain? Suppose under a new captain, we can out in the Super 8s, will we need to change the captain again? That's Pakistan logic and really stupid indeed.

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^I agree that those denying Dhoni's achievements prior to 2011 WC are idiots,but its been a fair time since then n we have gone down,hence the calls.why would we want team to lose?its not about Dhoni,its about wats best for Indian cricket,n no u cant think wat'll happen even if we lose under new captain,u dont stop walking on the road for the fear of accidents,have to take the chance,under Dhoni,there doesnt seem to be any chance of revival,its only gonna continue. lastly,Pakistan logic for T20s is not all that stupid,they've made to 4 consecutive semis with that.

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We have a situation here where many Indian fans just want the team to fail so they can say Dhoni needs to leave. We have a situation where whenever we win' date= it is seen as assumed and nothing worth to praise ( eg. posts on how Indian home performances should not matter). We have plenty of glory hunters then whom fail to see any progress and instead just want all the glory. With these kind of attitude, what the use of changing the captain? Suppose under a new captain, we can out in the Super 8s, will we need to change the captain again? That's Pakistan logic and really stupid indeed.
Truer words have never been spoken :giggle:

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