A chilling recount of the 1984 riots

[PBN]

1984, those were not riots, it was a GENOCIDE of the Sikhs. Delhi was the worst hit, Sikhs were burnt live with rubber tyres hung from their necks, their holy book SGGS were burnt on the streets, women were raped, shops and houses looted and burnt. For the sikhs of Delhi, they had already endured the horrid times of the 1947 Partition like the rest of the Punjabis, and to be devastated a second time cannot be put to words. While Delhi was the epicentre but the ripples were felt in many places around India: in Haryana where entire villages of Sikhs were razed and they were burnt alive in Gurudwaras. This continued all to way to Bihar. In some places, the atrociites have been forgotten or no even knows they occured. It was pure carneige and turmoil. Rajiv Gandhi in response stated: When a big tree falls, the earth shakes

[Muloghonto]

1984' date=' those were not riots, it was a [b']GENOCIDE of the Sikhs. Delhi was the worst hit, Sikhs were burnt live with rubber tyres hung from their necks, their holy book SGGS were burnt on the streets, women were raped, shops and houses looted and burnt. For the sikhs of Delhi, they had already endured the horrid times of the 1947 Partition like the rest of the Punjabis, and to be devastated a second time cannot be put to words. While Delhi was the epicentre but the ripples were felt in many places around India: in Haryana where entire villages of Sikhs were razed and they were burnt alive in Gurudwaras. This continued all to way to Bihar. In some places, the atrociites have been forgotten or no even knows they occured. It was pure carneige and turmoil. Rajiv Gandhi in response stated: When a big tree falls, the earth shakes

It was not a genocide. Genocide requires concerted effort and policy from the state to exterminate a group of people. Like the Hindus in Bangladesh during the 1971 genocide. Or the Jews and Hitler. Since Indian govt. did not have a stated policy and concerted effort to organize and perpetrate the killings of the Sikhs, its not a genocide. As such, what happened in 84 was a whole bunch of 'monkey see monkey do' hindu civillians going on a riotous rampage against a particular community. Rather heinous, but not a genocide.

[Lurker]

1984' date=' those were not riots, it was a [b']GENOCIDE of the Sikhs. Delhi was the worst hit, Sikhs were burnt live with rubber tyres hung from their necks, their holy book SGGS were burnt on the streets, women were raped, shops and houses looted and burnt. For the sikhs of Delhi, they had already endured the horrid times of the 1947 Partition like the rest of the Punjabis, and to be devastated a second time cannot be put to words.

This is where the Sikh victim card starts coming out. Everybody here has agreed that Sikhs were butchered in 1984 riots (show me otherwise). But whats with 1947 partition like the rest of Punjabis?? Only Punjabis suffered in riots?? Not Bengali/Bihari/UPites/Haryanavi and what have you? Why is that nonsense always pulled out.

While Delhi was the epicentre but the ripples were felt in many places around India: in Haryana where entire villages of Sikhs were razed and they were burnt alive in Gurudwaras. This continued all to way to Bihar. In some places, the atrociites have been forgotten or no even knows they occured. It was pure carneige and turmoil.

Please feel free to bring up instances where Haryana's surrounding areas were butched by Khalistani militants. Also, not doing a tit for tat, but the number of Biharis killed in Punjab would tilt the scales heavily. The stories about Khalistan terrorists killing sleeping Bihari laborers are stuff of legends. You may want to check it. Never seen you, or any other Sikh scholar, write about that, have we?

Rajiv Gandhi in response stated: When a big tree falls, the earth shakes

Again something that has been discussed many times and not sure if any one ever supported it. My assertion is not to have a go against Punjab. But to look at it wholistically. Please dont point fingers, specially when you will get many pointed back at you. And for heavens sake stop using the line that Sikhs are persecuted in India. (Not saying you do). Far as I can see Sikhs are the only one who are always accorded a respectful demeanor, even to call them someone would say Sardar-ji. Never heard a Christian, a Tamilian, or Goan treated like that.

[PBN]

Other recounts of 1984: Haryana in turmoil Hondh- Chillar massacre, Pataudi, Gurgaon, Haily mandi. Burnt alive in their own villages, others in the Gurudwara. Some of these 'mass graves' have only been discovered in the last couple of years. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUgFnKPSdqo]Mass grave of anti Sikh genocide discovered in Haryana - YouTube[/ame] Horrific tales!! It is well documented that the carneige was state sponsored, the police just watched especially in Delhi for many days.

[Crookbond]

It is indeed a horrific story - no two ways about it. We need to hold on the term "genocide" though. Were Sikhs in other regions of India (apart from Delhi) also persecuted?

[Tiger80]

It was not a genocide. Genocide requires concerted effort and policy from the state to exterminate a group of people. Like the Hindus in Bangladesh during the 1971 genocide. Or the Jews and Hitler. Since Indian govt. did not have a stated policy and concerted effort to organize and perpetrate the killings of the Sikhs, its not a genocide. As such, what happened in 84 was a whole bunch of 'monkey see monkey do' hindu civillians going on a riotous rampage against a particular community. Rather heinous, but not a genocide.

Those who have little knowledge know's that 1984 is not going to qualify for riots either Congress politicians allowed indiscriminate killings of people for 3 days . And for this they specially bought criminals and lawless people from outer Delhi and surrounding area's of Delhi.No hindu's were killed in 1984 riots. My family was living was in posh area of South delhi and my non sikh chachi saw mobs 10 feet away passing from our house.Colony Gurdwara and sikh school was burnt but surprisingly no sikh homes were attacked in colony as it has lot of foreigner population. May be the order was not kill any sikh in colony Also not to forget RSS and Vajpayee were at forefront for relief work for victims . Right wing parties join the rioters rather than saving the victims. 1984 was congress sponsered massacre of sikhs for 3 days Nov -1 to Nov 3 after than in just 1-2 days the entire rioting or killing just stopped .I don't even consider it as Hindu-Sikh riots either. Surprisingly some hindu's are taking blame for it

[PBN]

Article : 1984. Riots in Pataudi. Not a whisper escaped As the media focusses on Haryana’s Hondh-Chillar massacre, AVALOK LANGER unearths evidence of another anti-Sikh carnage never reported before AMIDST FIELDS of ripening wheat, a man who had never shed a tear wept inconsolably. Manwinder Singh Giaspur, 35, a textile engineer based in Gurgaon, broke down when he discovered the 26-year-old secret of genocide. On 2 November 1984, a mob attacked the small Sikh hamlet of Hondh-Chillar located 15 km from Pataudi, in Rewari district of Haryana. The remnants of burnt buildings are the only testimony to a shameful truth: that the anti-Sikh riots had also claimed victims in Haryana with the same ruthless efficiency displayed in Delhi. Overwhelmed by a blitz of reporters, camera crews and netas, the then sarpanch and eyewitness, Dhanpat Singh Yadav, ran his finger through his thinning grey hair and said, “For 26 years you all were fast asleep, now suddenly the media has woken up and come to find out what happened?” The attack came in two waves, he recalled. The villagers of Chillar and Hondh were able to fend off the first group of attackers on 1 November, but at 10 am the next day, a truck and a bus carrying 200-250 young men armed with rods, lathis, diesel and matches stormed the village. Overawed by the aggression and repeated threats by the outsiders, the villagers stood helpless as they killed 31 Sikh men, women and children and razed their bungalows and gurudwara to the ground. While some were burnt alive, others were beaten to death. The four-hour-long carnage came to an abrupt halt when a group of Sikhs broke out of their burning house armed with swords and attacked the rioters. Under the cover of night, the 32 survivors were taken by tractor to Rewari, from where they scattered across the country like Partition refugees. “An FIR was filed (now apparently lost), a brief inquiry was also carried out, the police knew all the details, the local MLA Col. Ram Singh was aware of the killings but nothing happened. Everyone knew about it but chose to forget,” adds Dhanpat. As media reports from Ground Zero pour in and parties move in to get maximum mileage, TEHELKA stumbled upon memories of another genocide. In a town known for its debonair Nawabs, 17 Sikhs were butchered in Pataudi. Those who chose to stay back were forced to rise out of the sewers to rebuild their lives Sitting in a small, unkempt room, Gurjeet Singh, pradhan of Pataudi’s Gurudwara Singh Sahib said, “I have kept this room of my house unchanged from the ’84 riots. I want my children to see what was done to us at the hands of our own people, in our own country.” He looked at his son, smiled sardonically and added, “Every day mediapersons and netas pass through Pataudi on their way to Hondh-Chillar, but no one has come here to find out what happened to the Sikh families. Before 1984, there were close to 30 Sikh families in Pataudi, but today there are only five. We, who chose to stay back, were forced to rise out of the sewers to rebuild our lives.” Gurjeet’s mother Pritam Kaur, wrapped in a grey shawl, leaning on her walking stick, said, “Every night, in every idle moment of every day, I am haunted by those memories. Whatever property that was taken, is gone. There is nothing we can do about that now, but the pain, the memories of fear and death will never fade.” At 6 pm on 1 November, panic filled the city as the gurudwra was set on fire. The Sikhs of Pataudi ran for their lives, hiding wherever they could find cover as an angry mob ripped through the town burning their houses. While one group ran to the safety of the village, another chose to stay in the local ashram. Leaving the safety of the ashram the next morning, they went to their respective houses to assess the damage. Separated, out in the open, tired and crying, they were attacked by a frenzied mob at 10 am. Many hid in neighbours’ houses, some escaped to the village but 17 people were brutally murdered that day. Burnt alive, their charred bodies the ‘evidence’ were piled up and burnt to ashes. Gurjeet narrates the story of two sisters, Harmeet Kaur, 16, and Karamjeet Kaur, 19. “The mob dragged them out into the street, stripped them, abused them, beat them, urinated on their faces and burnt them alive,” he says. “There was no sense of human dignity, no sense of compassion. What role did these girls have in Mrs Gandhi’s assassination? Were we all responsible? Sardaron ke bachche hai, tho marao (They are children of sardars, so kill them).” THOUGH MULTIPLE FIRs were lodged, no one was caught or prosecuted and the stories of Pataudi, like those of Hondh, have remained but whispers in once glorious havelis. However, when asked for an action plan, Chief Minister Bhupinder Singh Hooda said, “Action will be taken in accordance with the report filed by the Gurgaon Commissioner. Though compensation has been given, the guilty must be punished. If the report deems judicial action is needed, we will pursue it.” When asked why no one brought out these stories before, Gurjeet said, “The media, the Sikh organisations, the politicians had all labelled the riots as the ‘Delhi riots’. We had no influential leader. There was no local media, we were scared and alone, what could we do? As time passed, we were faced with the responsibility of rebuilding our future, looking to the needs of our families, we did not have the time, resources or support to fight against the system. And to be honest, when you lose your whole world, your will to fight dies.” Physically, emotionally and financially, none of the Sikh families of Pataudi have been able to recover. If stagnation is normalcy, their lives are on an even keel

[Tiger80]

It is indeed a horrific story - no two ways about it. We need to hold on the term "genocide" though. Were Sikhs in other regions of India (apart from Delhi) also persecuted?

In many cities Sikhs were attacked and killed by congress workers.Kanpur and Bokaro were other worst hit cities

Sikhs in Bihar of 1984 riots http://www.youbihar.com/forum/topics/sikhs-in-bihar-of-1984-riots

[Crookbond]

In many cities Sikhs were attacked and killed by congress workers.Kanpur and Bokaro were other worst hit cities

That's true but to be classified as 'genocide' requires more evidence than currently present. That said, they were heinous riots of the horrific order. We just need to be a bit careful with terms when discussing a sensitive topic. I didn't meant to deviate; I think the discourse should be on the Sikh riots and not what it should be labeled as. http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst_argument_in_the/

[PBN]

Bihar was not spared either. Mobs looting, arsoning, etc all happened especially in Patna where the Sikhs had a sizeable population. Mobs were patrolling the streets. The Sikhs gathered themselves in Gurudwara Patna Sahib during those times. After which, many Sikhs fled to Punjab. Meanwhile:

27 anti-Sikh riots accused acquitted in Bihar A local court has acquitted all the 27 accused involved in anti-Sikh riots of 1984 due to the absence of witnesses against them in Bihar's Rohtas district. ...... Court sources said that following the assasination of the then prime minister Indira Gandhi, rioters had gone berserk and set on fire a number of shops located on Jhabarmal Gali, Cinema Road on Dehri-on-Sone, GT road in which shops belonging to Sardar Buta Singh, Yogendra Singh, Avatar Singh, Gurubachan Singh, Uttam Singh, Sampoorna Singh and others were gutted. source

[Tiger80]

That's true but to be classified as 'genocide' requires more evidence than currently present. That said, they were heinous riots of the horrific order. We just need to be a bit careful with terms when discussing a sensitive topic. I didn't meant to deviate; I think the discourse should be on the Sikh riots and not what it should be labeled as. http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_noncentral_fallacy_the_worst_argument_in_the/

Riots is not a good word too. It is mostly used when 2 communities madly kill each other . I think massacre is right word. as it was simple one sided killings.where ever state govt gave orders to police not to allow killings the damage was minimum and those were non congress govts.Surprisingly Bombay remained unaffected even though there was congress govt. Bal thackerey always use to take credit for it.Was he such an influential person that no mobs attacked sikhs?

[Crookbond]

Riots is not a good word too. It is mostly used when 2 communities madly kill each other . I think massacre is right word. as it was simple one sided killings.where ever state govt gave orders to police not to allow killings the damage was minimum and those were non congress govts.Surprisingly Bombay remained unaffected even though there was congress govt. Bal thackerey always use to take credit for it.Was he such an influential person that no mobs attacked sikhs?

Ok - we shall agree on 'massacre'. Politicians will always take credit. I wonder where that credit goes when there were Sikh terrorists who formed their base camps in Mumbai after 1984. In case, Thackeray protected the Sikhs he also encouraged terrorism.

[Tiger80]

Ok - we shall agree on 'massacre'. Politicians will always take credit. I wonder where that credit goes when there were Sikh terrorists who formed their base camps in Mumbai after 1984. In case, Thackeray protected the Sikhs he also encouraged terrorism.

I don't get your point.What Khalistani terrorists forming their bases have to do with Shiv Sena or bal thackerey? Is there evidence that he supported them too.Dawood Ibrahim also had his base in Mumbai so Thackerey supported him too? Anyway Thackeray saw all this as opportunity to make money for Shiv Sena

. The Sikh community in Mumbai was among the first to show Thackeray the benefits of communal profiling. While Sikhs and their establishments were burnt in northern India following the assassination of Indira Gandhi in October 1984, prominent businessmen of the community in Mumbai lined up before Thackeray to tie up cash for peace deals. Four years later as militancy hit a peak in Punjab, Thackeray raised the life insurance premia on the Sikhs by calling for a social and economic boycott on the community. The boycott call was quickly withdrawn, but not before huge sums of money were extorted from even the small roadside dhaba-owners along the highways. Tasting success with the Sikhs, http://teleradproviders.com/nbn/editorialstory.php?id=ODY0Ng==

I am not saying Thackerey was great or anything .But Sikh communityr remained safe in Mumbai clearly shows how much politicians hold over goonda's and 1984 happened where politicians allowed Goonda's to have free run

[Crookbond]

I don't get your point.What Khalistani terrorists forming their bases have to do with Shiv Sena or bal thackerey? Is there evidence that he supported them too.Dawood Ibrahim also had his base in Mumbai so Thackerey supported him too?

1984 Sikh Riots led to terrorists flee from Delhi and other areas to Mumbai. Thackeray supported the Sikhs but may not have known (or may have?) that some of those were terrorists. There is a good chance that his support for Sikhs may have help shield the 'black sheep'. The point I was making is that if Thackeray deserves credit for shielding the Sikhs, he should also get flak for letting Sikh terrorists settle in Mumbai. It works both ways - you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Tiger80]

1984 Sikh Riots led to terrorists flee from Delhi and other areas to Mumbai. Thackeray supported the Sikhs but may not have known (or may have?) that some of those were terrorists. There is a good chance that his support for Sikhs may have help shield the 'black sheep'. The point I was making is that if Thackeray deserves credit for shielding the Sikhs' date= he should also get flak for letting Sikh terrorists settle in Mumbai. It works both ways - you can't have your cake and eat it too.

:banghead: THackeray did not supported sikhs. He just took money from businessmen sikh community in Mumbai and protected them or you are trying to say that wherever anybody protected sikhs in 1984 riots supported terrorism Also there were hardly any sikh terrorists in Delhi at the time of anti sikh riots in November 1984 and nowhere you will find that any of them ran toward Mumbai .It is only in late 80s some terrorists from Punjab went to Mumbai Suppose Bal thackerey did not protected sikhs in 1984 and congress goons could had killed 500-1000 iinnocent Sikhs in 1984 in Mumbai , then do you think that khalistani militants would not have entered mumbai in late 80s.infact they could had generated much more support from sikhs in Mumbai too and many sikh men could had joined them too.

[Crookbond]

:banghead: THackeray did not supported sikhs. He just took money from businessmen sikh community in Mumbai and protected them or you are trying to say that wherever anybody protected sikhs in 1984 riots supported terrorism Also there were hardly any sikh terrorists in Delhi at the time of anti sikh riots in November 1984 and nowhere you will find that any of them ran toward Mumbai .It is only in late 80s some terrorists from Punjab went to Mumbai Suppose Bal thackerey did not protected sikhs in 1984 and congress goons could had killed 500-1000 iinnocent Sikhs in 1984 in Mumbai , then do you think that khalistani militants would not have entered mumbai in late 80s.infact they could had generated much more support from sikhs in Mumbai too and many sikh men could had joined them too.

I think you are taking it the wrong way. IDK what Thackeray did - all that I'm trying to say that IF Thackeray helped the Sikhs (for whatever reasons - money, service etc.) he intentionally (or inadvertently) may have also helped shield the Sikh terrorists. Just in case, it's not just the Sikhs from Delhi but from other areas in the north who too had fled to Mumbai. For the highlighted part, A implies B does not mean B implies A. I never insinuated that w/o Thackeray's hand Khalistani terrorists wouldn't have come to Bombay - there's no way to know. I am merely commenting on the events which took place.

[King Tendulkar]

This is where the Sikh victim card starts coming out. .

Its clear what sick stance you have on this. Yes sikhs were victims in this with this genocide, yet you claim they are playing a card. All your posts here hammer sikhs etc. You are not interested in conedmnation and justuce. Why? Cos frnkly you fell Tytler and Rajiv served out justuce for your tigress falling like a big tree. Crinimals released to attack. Top officials and police handing out petrol to butrn and attack with. Politicians and police using openly eloctaral registers to identify sikhs and kill them. Yet its all a victim card stuff from Yank Lurker!!

[Muloghonto]

Its clear what sick stance you have on this. Yes sikhs were victims in this with this genocide, yet you claim they are playing a card. All your posts here hammer sikhs etc. You are not interested in conedmnation and justuce. Why? Cos frnkly you fell Tytler and Rajiv served out justuce for your tigress falling like a big tree. Crinimals released to attack. Top officials and police handing out petrol to butrn and attack with. Politicians and police using openly eloctaral registers to identify sikhs and kill them. Yet its all a victim card stuff from Yank Lurker!!

I fail to see how you or any other person here have managed to differentiate hyperbole from facts. I am not trying to diminish the suffering of the Sikhs, but lets go easy on buying any conspiracy theory just coz it came out of a random 'i was there, it happened to me' guy in front of a tv film crew. This is how 'propaganda' really takes off, when we fail to investigate the events thoroughly and as such, tall tales are mixed in with gruesome details to create a fuzzy picture. The Indian courts are not 'aquitting' the criminals because they are corrupt or tilted, they are doing it because of precisely the abovementioned fact: fuzzy picture where you ultimately need more evidence than 'i saw him, he killed 5 people while his buddies killed 50 more, 18 years ago' to have plausable convictions.

[King Tendulkar]

I fail to see how you or any other person here have managed to differentiate hyperbole from facts. I am not trying to diminish the suffering of the Sikhs, but lets go easy on buying any conspiracy theory just coz it came out of a random 'i was there, it happened to me' guy in front of a tv film crew. This is how 'propaganda' really takes off, when we fail to investigate the events thoroughly and as such, tall tales are mixed in with gruesome details to create a fuzzy picture. The Indian courts are not 'aquitting' the criminals because they are corrupt or tilted, they are doing it because of precisely the abovementioned fact: fuzzy picture where you ultimately need more evidence than 'i saw him, he killed 5 people while his buddies killed 50 more, 18 years ago' to have plausable convictions.

Well they will be fuzzy 30 years later. Wo so much faith in courts and police of india. Pretty difficult to get prosecutions when police them selves why involved in organising this, thus they wont exactly gather evidence peoperly will. they? Plus of course the CBI is in full control of CBI who are acting like defence lawyer rather then prosecutor. Thousands massacred, all done hand in hand with all types of indian instituitons in the capital city. And we get from apologists is thats its all fuzzy and how can anyone possibly be convicted. No wonder no one in authority has ever gone down for this , nor will they ever. Frankly they get secret pat on the backs and rewarded with juicy posts

[King Tendulkar]

The Indian courts are not 'aquitting' the criminals because they are corrupt or tilted' date=' they are doing it because of precisely the abovementioned fact: fuzzy picture where you ultimately need more evidence than 'i saw him, he killed 5 people while his buddies killed 50 more, 18 years ago' to have plausable convictions.[/quote'] Yes what kind of evidence is there. No CCTV or film crews fliming. Merley victinms and families of victims with witness accounts which corroborate. Plus it was all so long ago. Lets not bother asking why it is 30 years after and suddenly witness statements are being looked at. To long ago to bother now. Many stellar witnesses now dead or too old with dementia. The goons are out lasting justuice. O well this is India, all too many want justce brushed under carpet to suit their agenda and hate. No justice in Bhopal, Gujurat, 84 riots, plus zillions of corruption(vadra, rajiv etc etc) etc etc. Then we have people waffling on about courts not having any evidence etc etc. I mean you are right how can one possibly convict in India court. Innocent before guilty!!!!! Lets not talk about bullying of witnesses, paying off witnesses, control of cbi, control of police and courts!!! Jai Hind!!