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What's wrong with Indian cricket's spin bowlers?

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India lost the second cricket Test against England in Mumbai as much due to their inept batting against spin as their lack of a plan for their spinners. Much has been made of the greater pace at which Graeme Swann and Monty Panesar bowled, as if that explained everything. But there were other factors which helped them outperform Indian spinning trio Harbhajan Singh, Ravichandran Ashwin and Pragyan Ojha - consistency, for one. The ability to hit a spot ball after ball, over after over, session after session is a skill great spinners have, especially on a helpful track. The Indian spinners seemed determined to put their entire range on display rather like a novelist putting everything he knows into his first book. There was also the psychological battle within the ranks. Harbhajan, in his comeback Test, his 99th, had a point to prove faced with Ashwin who had just become the quickest Indian to reach 50 Test wickets. Both bowlers were thus under pressure, and that must have affected performances too. It will be interesting to find out the role played by Indian coach Duncan Fletcher and bowling coach John Dawes. Dereliction of duty Actually, there is irony here: that a Zimbabwean batsman and an Australian medium pacer should tell Indian spinners how to bowl on home tracks. Either they did, and nothing happened, or they didn't, in which case there was a dereliction of duty. Captain Mahendra Singh Dhoni's insistence that turning tracks are the proper response to getting beaten by 10 wickets on one is depressing - especially since turners have often favoured visiting spinners. Derek Underwood finished with 29 wickets when England last won three Tests in a series in India, in 1976-77. The Indian spin quartet was at its peak then, but the combination of Bishan Bedi, Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, Erapalli Prasanna and Srinivas Venkatraghavan managed to eke out just a single win, in Bangalore. Bangalore was also the venue for another important life lesson in spin bowling. Harbhajan Singh Harbhajan Singh has been out of form India's Maninder Singh claimed seven wickets as Pakistan were dismissed for 116 in 1986-87. India lost because off-spinner Tauseef Ahmed and left-arm spinner Iqbal Qasim ran through the side in the fourth innings (Sunil Gavaskar playing one of his great innings for 96), following advice from Bedi who told them: "On a spinning wicket, the ball that does not turn is the danger delivery." England might not have won the Mumbai Test so easily had Anil Kumble - the wicket seemed to be made for him - been in the India side. Do Indian spinners have a chat with former greats in the course of a Test series? Both Bedi and Kumble are readily available, and many visiting spinners have paid them rich tributes for helping them out in the name of the 'Spinners' Union' which recognises no geographical boundaries. Perhaps the Indian spinners struggled in Mumbai because India were not using all their strengths - and that includes the experience of the men who went before. Still, England's victory has brought the series alive and shone a light on many of India's weaknesses that might have remained hidden and uncommented upon had the Test gone the other way. It has also taken 4-0 out of the equation, which is welcome. When there was an uproar over India's tactic of not playing spinners in the matches leading up to the first Test, some felt it was not so much to show off their strength as to hide their weakness. It was cruel, and the win in Ahmedabad seemed to confirm that. And then came Mumbai. A stunning innings by Kevin Pietersen and a superbly controlled century by skipper Alastair Cook made a mockery of Dhoni's call for turning tracks. Most languages have a saying about falling into the hole you have dug for your enemies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20537140

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The article muddles up many points but makes one definitive one - Indian spinners are not good enough. Ashwin just keeps floating the ball without enough work and I wonder if fitness has got something to do with it.

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//Harbhajan, in his comeback Test, his 99th, had a point to prove faced with Ashwin who had just become the quickest Indian to reach 50 Test wickets. Both bowlers were thus under pressure, and that must have affected performances too. // This

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The article muddles up many points but makes one definitive one - Indian spinners are not good enough. Ashwin just keeps floating the ball without enough work and I wonder if fitness has got something to do with it.
There is no problem with Ashwin other than trying to do too much. He puts more body than even Swann. He is getting nice pviot and rotation but losing control in trying to do that. On these pitches, you dont need to try much, put in the right areas and pitch will do it for you, but they could not do it in Mumbai consistently. Their overeagerness proved fatal for India's chances. They came out with a predetermined notion of bundling out England ASAP (read 150-200), but when a partnership built up, they lost the patience and started trying too hard.

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both harbhajan and ashwin were poor but I will go with ashwin for now because 1) Ashwin has played only ten matches and he can learn and improve. On the other hand , I dunno what else can a bowler learn after playing 99 test matches. 2) Age 3) Ashwin's batting. Worst case scenario if he keeps bowling like this without improving , he can become a 5th bowler and a decent batsman , like hafeez

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There is no problem with Ashwin other than trying to do too much. He puts more body than even Swann. He is getting nice pviot and rotation but losing control in trying to do that. On these pitches' date= you dont need to try much, put in the right areas and pitch will do it for you, but they could not do it in Mumbai consistently. Their overeagerness proved fatal for India's chances. They came out with a predetermined notion of bundling out England ASAP (read 150-200), but when a partnership built up, they lost the patience and started trying too hard.
I was talking about in general - in Australia and other places. He's losing control of his action/follow through by trying to bowl the magic delivery. I disagree that you don't need to do much - you should put in revolutions on the ball.

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I was talking about in general - in Australia and other places. He's losing control of his action/follow through by trying to bowl the magic delivery. I disagree that you don't need to do much - you should put in revolutions on the ball.
Consistency is more important than revolutions. Revoluitions are imoprtant but thats useless if one cannot put balls in right areas. Kumble, Chandra took wicket without much revolutions all their career with just accuracy and subtle variations of pace and other varieties.

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The major problem is the flat pitches and playing too much ODIs and IPL. When you're bowling on a pitch which is not giving any assistance in a limited over game, you cant just toss it up and bowl in the same spot consistently because you'll become predictable and will be taken for runs. So bowlers tend to become a lot more defensive and will have to keep changing length, sometimes bowl on legs, sometimes wide because giving away 6 runs an over is decent in ODI/T20. But this type of mindset becomes a habit and stays with them even when they are playing tests because its not easy to make the switch. This is the reason why Bhajji became such a mediocre bowler after IPL started. He got 400 wickets in tests which was not a fluke and he was a world class bowler but now he is struggling to pick wickets in Ranji trophy. Ojha has looked much better because he doesnt play ODIs and even for MI regularly. If BCCI continues to insist on flat decks, then its impossible to produce quality bowlers. By the way, this is not a reaction after India's recent loss against England. I'm just speaking of a general trend in Indian cricket.

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Consistency is more important than revolutions. Revoluitions are imoprtant but thats useless if one cannot put balls in right areas. Kumble' date=' Chandra took wicket without much revolutions all their career with just accuracy and subtle variations of pace and other varieties.[/quote'] I get your point - I never said consistency is not important. However, when you're playing in conditions where the pitch is not helping you much (read second innings of Ahmedabad) you need to put some work on the ball.

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Bhaji does not (rarely) spins the ball. Its mostly darts. There arespinners who could have been better than him but his friendship with Dhoni ensured they never got chance - Murali Kartik ( 10 times better spinner and thinks too) , Abdullah ( had potential but is getting wasted. Next in line is Harmeet but if Harmeet does not get chance in next 1-2 years things might get even worse

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The article muddles up many points but makes one definitive one - Indian spinners are not good enough. Ashwin just keeps floating the ball without enough work and I wonder if fitness has got something to do with it.
True.. He relies on flight..Revs are needed to get more bite off the surface. Exactly why Murali and Warne were successful. Don't think Naraine gives enough revs either.

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So whenever we talk about our bowling Coach...there is always a mention of him grooming or mentoring Fast bowlers,be it Venky Prasad,Eric Simmons or Joe dawes.So who works with the Spinners? Is it automatically assumed that our spinners are good enough in home conditions and beyond coachable? Isn't Mushtaq Ahmed a Spin bowling Coach with the English team?I mean really credit were due,looks like he did a great job with Swann and Monty ...just look at Swann's growth as a bowler...he is probably made a world of difference to how the English bowling line-up looks.

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Yup....thats the same point I made in the other thread....BCB was amart enough to realise their strengths and invest accordingly.
Gazi imbibes Saqlain's wisdom The day before the first ODI against West Indies, Sohag Gazi spent close to an hour bowling at Saqlain Mushtaq. The former Pakistan offspinner stood behind one stump, baseball mitt in one hand, on the wicket next to the one where the Bangladesh offspinner would make his ODI debut. Apart from the bowling, the only other activity during the whole exercise was when Saqlain moved the markers. It happened only a few times, to indicate what lines and length to bowl when the bowler switched to around the wicket, but there was very little exchange of words. It was clear that the plans were set and had been spelled out to the youngster, who devotedly carried them out the next day. . . . . .http://www.espncricinfo.com/banglade...ry/594518.html

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No ones obsessed with Pakis. Its just that we need "better" chuckers :idunno:
is Rehman a chucker? he is a better test spinner than anyone india has right now. And Ajmal's action is perfectly legal according to the rules today

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is Rehman a chucker? he is a better test spinner than anyone india has right now. And Ajmal's action is perfectly legal according to the rules today
Rehman is a lollipop bowler if ever there was one. Dont write off India's spinners because of one bad game. Ojha and Ashwin are only playing their first big test series. They are bound to make mistakes and learn from them.

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Rehman is a lollipop bowler if ever there was one. Dont write off India's spinners because of one bad game. Ojha and Ashwin are only playing their first big test series. They are bound to make mistakes and learn from them.
When did Ashwin get a good game? Ashwin's first big test series was played in Australia.

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When did Ashwin get a good game? Ashwin's first big test series was played in Australia.
So he was the quickest Indian bowler to pick 50 wickets because he never had a good game ? Check the series against New Zealand and West Indies.

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is Rehman a chucker? he is a better test spinner than anyone india has right now. And Ajmal's action is perfectly legal according to the rules today
Rehman's ranking - 11th. Ojha's ranking - 5th. Before you bring the fact that Rehman hasn't played for long time - Rehman's career best rating 739, Ojha's career best rating 767.

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Of course. They are still test teams the last time I checked. If you discount them' date=' you are left with only 3 or 4 "good" teams in a 9 nation sport. :cantstop:[/quote'] If he had taken wickets against England it would have been "They suck against spinners anyway.. that doesn't count" :cantstop: . He is no way a finished product. But too early to discard him.

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Ojha and Ashwin are only playing their first big test series.
Those were big games for him?
Of course. They are still test teams the last time I checked. If you discount them' date=' you are left with only 3 or 4 "good" teams in a 9 nation sport. :cantstop:[/quote'] :blink: First you say that this first big series for Ashwin, then you say that NZ and WI series were also big series for them? wth. Two different people posting from same account?

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First you say that this first big series for Ashwin, then you say that NZ and WI series were also big series for them? wth. Two different people posting from same account?
I didnt say NZ and WI were big series. I said you cant discount those performances just because they are not big teams. He did as well as possible against them. In the last test, we have to give credit to Cook and KP for the way they batted. Ashwin has to learn from what he did wrong and get better. In India, we have this problem of forgetting that other teams are here to compete and win. So we over criticize whenever some of our players dont do well.

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I didnt say NZ and WI were big series. I said you cant discount those performances just because they are not big teams. He did as well as possible against them. In the last test, we have to give credit to Cook and KP for the way they batted. Ashwin has to learn from what he did wrong and get better. In India, we have this problem of forgetting that other teams are here to compete and win. So we over criticize whenever some of our players dont do well.
I agree that he made mistakes because he wasn't that good. But since your original reply was for comparison with Rehman then how does mistake make him better than Rehman and how good performance by Rehman makes him a lollipop bowler?

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I agree that he made mistakes because he wasn't that good. But since your original reply was for comparison with Rehman then how does mistake make him better than Rehman and how good performance by Rehman makes him a lollipop bowler?
Rehman is a very conventional type bowler who gives support rather than an attacking bowler. He hasnt and wont do well against teams which play spin well (India, South Africa, Australia, Sri Lanka).

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Rehman is a very conventional type bowler who gives support rather than an attacking bowler. He hasnt and wont do well against teams which play spin well (India' date=' South Africa, Australia, Sri Lanka).[/quote'] Why did you exclude England from that list and included India and SL in the list? SL couldn't beat England at home and India just got thrashed by them. England is among top 3 teams.

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Why did you exclude England from that list and included India and SL in the list? SL couldn't beat England at home and India just got thrashed by them. England is among top 3 teams.
At home, yes. They won one game in that series against Sri Lanka because of KP. Barring Cook and KP, they are dead ducks against spin. Trott, Bairstow, Bell, Samit Patel, Compton - are you kidding me ?

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At home, yes. Barring Cook and KP to a certain extent, they are dead ducks against spin. Trott, Bairstow, Bell, Samit Patel, Compton - are you kidding me ?
Lol, what? They are among top 3 overall. Who are ahead except Australia and SA? Cook, KP, Prior - 3 very good batsman. India and SL doesn't have even those many batsmen. If they are so bad then why SL couldn't beat them in SL? You're rating this SL team ahead of England team - are you kidding me? SL even at best couldn't win a match in India.

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Rehman's ranking - 11th. Ojha's ranking - 5th. Before you bring the fact that Rehman hasn't played for long time - Rehman's career best rating 739, Ojha's career best rating 767.
and yet Rehman destrtoyed england, look at what Ojha is doing right now :--D

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