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How about this. Ganguly sucks as a ODI batsman overall' date=' to be brought up on the world stage. Now you can keep harping about Inzy, Haynes etc. etc. but even GG is a better one day opener than Ganguly and his mediocre 70 S/R, just keeping it to Indian cricket . [/quote'] Thats absurd. GG bats in an era where 300-325 is the par score in ODIs. As such, even if he is the sheet anchor role, his strike rate has to be higher than Ganguly's to stay competetive with a guy who played in an era of 250 being a par score. Players like Jaya, Gilly are wham bam, thank you mam players, not sheet anchor roles. Players like Hayden (who played sheet anchor to Gilly), Haynes (sheet anchor to greenidge) are the ones you should be comparing them to. He is in the discussion because he is one of the most accomplished openers in history of ODI cricket. Opening in cricket isnt about a high strike rate, atleast not when you got a relatively high strike rate opener at the other end (Tendu.Sehwag). This is the same reason Sri Lanka were so successful with Atapattu as an opener, to play sheet anchor role to Jayasurya, instead of mr '20 in 15 balls and then out' Kaluwithrana.
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Load of BS. He dominated SA attack for one inning in SA' date=' like Agarkar and Kumble did in England for one inning, and he destroyed SA attack. Himm...Ok. I think he averages like 20 in SA. Anyhow, keep going with your BS and keep us entertained. [/quote'] Scoring 100 in 120 odd balls is most definitely destruction. My point about sehwag is essentially that- even in a place where he has not done well, such as South Africa, he is still capable of dominating a quality attack on his day. And this is why sehwag is in the discussion. There is no other opener who can score run-a-ball centuries in Test cricket and still average above 40, nevermind 50. Perhaps you do not realise the merit of comparative analysis. a 40% drop in 2nd innings performance is not much different from a 50% drop. My point was, such drops in 2nd innings average is a feature of some batsmen, great or otherwise, so there is zero logical basis in counting it against them. The argument for a strong 1st innings performer is a compelling one- a guy who averages 60+ in the first innings is the guy who gives your team the platform to win on at the very beginning, it matters not if this is not the guy for chasing down big totals or trying to ressurect the fortunes in the 2nd innings.
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Outside of Indian cricket fans' date=' not one person will pick Ganguly over Gilly, Jaya, Haynes, Hayden, Greenidge, Smith, Gayle, Anwar, Waugh to name a few as an opener, and it is not far fetched GG is a better ODI opener (only thing is he does not have the 300 game stats) than Ganguly, just keeping it to Indian cricket.[/quote'] Lots of people will and have picked Ganguly over Jaya, Haynes, Hayden,Greenidge, Smith & Gayle. This is because while Ganguly has only failed against one genuinely good side (Australia), he's absolutely dominated South Africa, an awesome side with awesome opening bowlers as well as every other side in the game. This is a feat that no other opener barring Tendu has achieved (dominating all and sundry). Only a kid with little or no grounding in cricket beyond the last 5-6 years will say that Ganguly is worse than Gambhir, but then again, kids like you think you know cricket after a few sessions of watching it.
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http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2316219&postcount=563. Hmm...Caught with tail between the legs, never to be seen.
I answered that post, incase you didnt see.
And again... http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2316913&postcount=568 And again.... http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2316734&postcount=567 And again... http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showpost.php?p=2316658&postcount=566 We can keep going one post after another, there for some good laughs. Now who needs some googling?
Yes. Keep googling. I am still to find a single player interview that says playing a world cup final is more pressure and harder than playing a world cup semi final. Apparently to you, playing sri lanka in a world cup final is a more challenging feat than playing south african bowlers in a world cup semi final. Which is laughable. Like i said, kiddo, come back when you actually understand cricket, instead of randomly picking statistics yuo have very little clue on.
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Scoring 100 in 120 odd balls is most definitely destruction. My point about sehwag is essentially that- even in a place where he has not done well, such as South Africa, he is still capable of dominating a quality attack on his day. And this is why sehwag is in the discussion. There is no other opener who can score run-a-ball centuries in Test cricket and still average above 40, nevermind 50. .
More BS. Destruction my foot. He did a zilch out-side the sub-continent for most part. Even I am capable of dominating in SA, but to do it in the middle is another thing. She-wag has 20 average in SA. So does not cut it. Plus he cannot be counted on in the 3rd or 4th match innings and is on par with a bowling all-arounder with a 30 average, and he should be considered in a Test all-time XI opener, ahead of Hutton, Hobbs, Greenidge, Gooch, Barry Richards etc. This guy does not hold a candle, in testing conditions to these greats. A case can be made for Gambhir, before this She-wag.
Perhaps you do not realise the merit of comparative analysis. a 40% drop in 2nd innings performance is not much different from a 50% drop. My point was, such drops in 2nd innings average is a feature of some batsmen, great or otherwise, so there is zero logical basis in counting it against them. The argument for a strong 1st innings performer is a compelling one- a guy who averages 60+ in the first innings is the guy who gives your team the platform to win on at the very beginning, it matters not if this is not the guy for chasing down big totals or trying to ressurect the fortunes in the 2nd innings
Go back and read your statistics better. Come back and show me how many players have such a vast 1st and 2nd inning differential, as this guy, for batsman who have played 100+ Tests. When a team needs to play out two sessions on a 5th day, one can count more on someone like Ashwin than this guy. He is that useless in some situations. And yeah he is one of the best all-time openers.
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Yes. Keep googling. I am still to find a single player interview that says playing a world cup final is more pressure and harder than playing a world cup semi final.
Keep looking, you will find or will realize some day i.e. somethings are quite obvious. Looks like you spend more time googling than really watching the game itself and that shows in your posts.
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More BS. Destruction my foot. He did a zilch out-side the sub-continent for most part.
Averages 50+ in West Indies, averages 47+ in Australia. Thats not zilch, that is better than most openers have.
Even I am capable of dominating in SA, but to do it in the middle is another thing. She-wag has 20 average in SA. So does not cut it.
Sehwag has scored runs at blitzkreig rate everywhere. Even in places where he isnt successful, such as South Africa, he is still capable of the occasional demolishion job. On pitches suited to him, he is the only test opener capable of consistently inflicting figures like 10-1-50-0 to bowlers of the callibre of Steyn.
Plus he cannot be counted on in the 3rd or 4th match innings and is on par with a bowling all-arounder with a 30 average, and he should be considered in a Test all-time XI opener, ahead of Hutton, Hobbs, Greenidge, Gooch, Barry Richards etc. This guy does not hold a candle, in testing conditions to these greats. A case can be made for Gambhir, before this She-wag.
You clearly are an idiot when it comes to cricket. Hutton & Hobbs played in an era where there were ZERO bouncers and the opening bowlers were no faster than Hansie Cronje, followed by legions of kumbles & muralis and such. Their 55-60 average means nothing, because they never played against any genuine fast bowlers, period. Greenidge is comparable to Sehwag, Gooch ? you mean mr minnow basher who's 'success' against good fast bowlers is akin to Boycott-esque 60 in 300 balls ? No thank you. The objective of this thread isnt about making teams that would result in 0-0 draws. I don't care if Sehwag can or cannot be counted for in the 3rd/4th innings of the match. The job of an opener is for setting up a platform. If that platform comes in the 1st innings, so much the better than it comming in the second innings.
Go back and read your statistics better.
I dont just read statistics i dont understand, which is clearly the case for you. You pick random stats and numbers without any effort to understand their relevance to the game. Probably because as i said earlier, you have not played cricket at any serious level, heck, i doubt you've even ever played 50 overs cricket at any level.
Come back and show me how many players have such a vast 1st and 2nd inning differential, as this guy, for batsman who have played 100+ Tests. When a team needs to play out two sessions on a 5th day, one can count more on someone like Ashwin than this guy. He is thus useless in some situations. And yeah he is one of the best all-time openers.
I already have. Ponting has a 22 point drop in average, Lara has a 24 point drop in average. When a team needs to play out two sessions on a 5th day, the job comes down to the middle order. Not to the opener. If an opener does it, its a bonus, they are there to set up the innings for the middle order. Its the job of the middle order to step up for the win or the draw. And every opener barring Gavaskar, as i said, in test cricket, is useless in certain situations. Greenidge shat himself when the ball didnt come on to the bat. Haynes was suspect in seaming conditions. Anything with excessive bounce and Hayden was a bunny. Graeme cannot bat against a leftie bowler of any decent callibre. So pointing out the flaw in Sehwag's game doesnt by default make him worse.
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Keep looking' date=' you will find or will realize some day i.e. somethings are quite obvious. Looks like you spend more time googling than really watching the game itself and that shows in your posts.[/quote'] Its so obvious that except for kids who have never actually played cricket, nobody has ever made a statement of such a nature. I think its safe to say that I've been watching the game for far longer than you have, kiddo, which is why I, along with virtually every cricketer worth his salt, rates Lara ahead of Kallis as a test batsman. But kids who dont play cricket and are obsessed with numbers without realizing the context of it will make remarks that experts wont. And then claim they know more than experts in their field of expertese. Maybe you will grow some humility one day, but given that you are an early 20-something kid, i highly doubt it will come anytime soon. Again, find me a single player who will say something like 'playing in a world cup final is harder than playing the same team 2 days prior in the world cup semi finals' and you may have a case. Till then, your whole 'world cup finals = more pressure than anyting else ever seen' is nothing more than an ignorant fan's fantasy.
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Lots of people will and have picked Ganguly over Jaya' date= Haynes, Hayden,Greenidge, Smith & Gayle. This is because while Ganguly has only failed against one genuinely good side (Australia), he's absolutely dominated South Africa, an awesome side with awesome opening bowlers as well as every other side in the game. This is a feat that no other opener barring Tendu has achieved (dominating all and sundry).
Lots of people as in SachinLara? Ganguly is just a 70 S/R average ODI batsman, who happended to play his One day game in an era of batsman friendly tracks, when most of his peers like Gilly, Jaya have S/R's of upwards of 90. One more thing, if the one day games allowed more short-pitched stuff, Ganguly would be dancing around like a cat on a hot tin roof. No need to dwell on his average batting skills. There is a reason why India won the WC once idiots like him were shunted out. Keeping batting positions aside MSD, YS, Kohli will be rated better one day batsman from this lot, and a bunch more from the prior generations. Given his poor fielding skills, inability to rotate the strike, atrocious running between the wickets, he should never even be allowed around an all-time Indian XI, let alone an all-time XI.
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Its so obvious that except for kids who have never actually played cricket, nobody has ever made a statement of such a nature. I think its safe to say that I've been watching the game for far longer than you have, kiddo, which is why I, along with virtually every cricketer worth his salt, rates Lara ahead of Kallis as a test batsman. But kids who dont play cricket and are obsessed with numbers without realizing the context of it will make remarks that experts wont. And then claim they know more than experts in their field of expertese. Maybe you will grow some humility one day, but given that you are an early 20-something kid, i highly doubt it will come anytime soon. Again, find me a single player who will say something like 'playing in a world cup final is harder than playing the same team 2 days prior in the world cup semi finals' and you may have a case. Till then, your whole 'world cup finals = more pressure than anyting else ever seen' is nothing more than an ignorant fan's fantasy.
You can rant all you want, scoring a ton in a WC final and winning amounts to much more, than the Kitlply cup(which you seem to be obsessed with) or a final played in your neighborhood by a bunch of pot-bellied dads.
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Lots of people as in SachinLara? Ganguly is just a 70 S/R average ODI batsman' date=' who happended to play his One day game in an era of batsman friendly tracks, when most of his peers like Gilly, Jaya have S/R's of upwards of 90. [/quote'] Ganguly happened to play in an era where 250-275 was a competetive score. Most of his peers having a better strike rate is compensated by the fact that he has a better average than most of his peers and that his role is that of an anchor. You cannot compare two batsmen with different mandates. A Sehwag, Gilly,Jaya are under mandate to go throw their bat around and score as many runs as quickly as possible. Ganguly, like Atapattu, Haynes,Junior and Kirstin, were anchors, a role that is pretty hard to be successful at. India won the world cup because india played at home, with two of the best middle order bats in the history of the game in full flow- Dhoni and Yuvraj. The fact that India failed to win world cups prior to this, is not due to Ganguly, who happens to've scored 1000+ runs at 50+ average and high 70s strike rate in world cup. As i said kid, learn the difference between correlation and causation. Given the fact that he was 10 times as astute as Dhoni as a captain, one of the safest catchers and a valuable seam bowling '5th/6th bowler' in the Hansie Cronje mould, who are God-like on sticky wickets such as those in Toronto Sahara Cup, along with the fact that he is one of the most successful openers ever, he is more than a shoo-in for an alltime India XI and definitely a consideration for alltime ODI XI.
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You can rant all you want' date=' scoring a ton in a WC final and winning amounts to much more, than the Kitlply cup(which you seem to be obsessed with) or a final played in your neighborhood by a bunch of pot-bellied dads.[/quote'] No, it is you who is ranting. And it is you who is making fake arguments on lies. I never said that it is easier to bat against a world cup finalist than the kids in my neighbourhood. I said that given the SAME OPPOSITION, it is no harder to bat in a world cup semi final or a world cup final or a kitply cup final. For batting against Donald-Pollock in a must win situation is the challenge. Not whether it is in Mohali and its a world cup final or its in Mumbai and its a world cup semi final. The opposition is still the same, the condition (must win) is still the same. How can a so-called expert like yourself make such a disingenous argument ? Perhaps you are not a science guy or failed sceince, which is why you are ignorant on the concept of 'control standards', where to determine the difference between two situations, controls must be set up. The control, here, is that we are talking about the same opposition, different occasion- world cup final vs world cup semi final. Now that i've addressed your disingenous and brainless attempt to warp my point, find me a cricketer who says its harder to face Steyn-Morkel-Philander in a world cup final than it is to face then 2 days prior in a world cup semi final. If you cant, you have no case.
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You can rant all you want' date=' scoring a ton in a WC final and winning amounts to much more, than the Kitlply cup(which you seem to be obsessed with) or a final played in your neighborhood by a bunch of pot-bellied dads.[/quote'] i advise you to watch some cricket instead of ranting without any knowledge about it :nice:
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I already have. Ponting has a 22 point drop in average, Lara has a 24 point drop in average. If an opener does it, its a bonus, they are there to set up the innings for the middle order. Its the job of the middle order to step up for the win or the draw.
But they do not average a pathetic 30, as She-wag does? Do they?
When a team needs to play out two sessions on a 5th day, the job comes down to the middle order. Not to the opener.
And you want people here to take you seriously, and that you understand cricket. Hmm...Job of playing out a session or two, is that of the middle order and not openers. May be you read one too many books, than watching or really playing the game itself, as you seem to be trumpeting a lot on this forum.
And every opener barring Gavaskar, as i said, in test cricket, is useless in certain situations.Greenidge shat himself when the ball didnt come on to the bat. Haynes was suspect in seaming conditions. Anything with excessive bounce and Hayden was a bunny. Graeme cannot bat against a leftie bowler of any decent callibre. So pointing out the flaw in Sehwag's game doesnt by default make him worse.
Not really. Is this the wisdom you picked up googling?
You clearly are an idiot when it comes to cricket. Hutton & Hobbs played in an era where there were ZERO bouncers and the opening bowlers were no faster than Hansie Cronje, followed by legions of kumbles & muralis and such. Their 55-60 average means nothing, because they never played against any genuine fast bowlers, period.
Hmm...Hutton, Hobbs played in an era of no bouncers, when that is not true at all - and you call me an idiot. Nice.
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But they do not average a pathetic 30' date=' as She-wag does? Do they? [/quote'] So what ? averaging 30 in 2nd innings is pathetic but 38 is not apparently. As i said kid, learn cricket before you yap. Find me a cricketer who disagrees and i have a bridge to sell you. The job of an opener in test cricket is fundamentally to see off the new ball and score some runs in the process. It is not the job of the batsmen who are the very first to step on to the pitch and negotiate the toughest phase of batsmanship to save a match. It obviously is the job of batsmen comming in later under easier conditions. no, from watching cricket since before you were born. Just saying 'not really' is not going to cut mustard, sonny. Find me a fast medium bowler, nevermind a superfast bowler, who operated in the era of Hobbs and Sutcliffe. Apologies on Hutton, i meant Sutcliffe. Hutton actually didnt have to deal with very many good or great bowlers either. Except for Australia, he played largely against mediocre attacks and as such, except for Bradman no pre war era batsman has any real merit to be in an alltime XI. Jack Hobbs makes it in some people's eyes, pretty much due to his inhuman longetivity at the game.
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Given the fact that he was 10 times as astute as Dhoni as a captain' date= one of the safest catchers and a valuable seam bowling '5th/6th bowler' in the Hansie Cronje mould, who are God-like on sticky wickets such as those in Toronto Sahara Cup, along with the fact that he is one of the most successful openers ever, he is more than a shoo-in for an alltime India XI and definitely a consideration for alltime ODI XI.
More wisdom. 10 times more astute captain than MSD? No, he is not. He is notorious for losing a lot of finals, compounded of course by his own inept play at the top of the order. Only a numb-skull like him would bat first upon winning the toss in 2003 final, a game taken away by a better opening pair of the final than India had - Gilly/Hayden in 7-8 overs. Now you are on to some random Toronto cup, having diverted yourself from the pet Kitply cup. Keep going. No matter how you dissect it Ganguly will never be picked by a vast majority, over Gilly, Jaya, Hayden, Gayle, Haynes and Greenidge etc. There are more, but for now this is enough.
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So what ? averaging 30 in 2nd innings is pathetic but 38 is not apparently. As i said kid, learn cricket before you yap.
Pick up a first grade book before long (38 to 30 apparently is not much), and look yourself in the mirror before calling someone else a kid.
Find me a fast medium bowler, nevermind a superfast bowler, who operated in the era of Hobbs and Sutcliffe. Apologies on Hutton, i meant Sutcliffe. Hutton actually didnt have to deal with very many good or great bowlers either. Except for Australia, he played largely against mediocre attacks and as such, except for Bradman no pre war era batsman has any real merit to be in an alltime XI. Jack Hobbs makes it in some people's eyes, pretty much due to his inhuman longetivity at the game
Now you are changing subjects, confusing Sutcliffe for Hutton and doling out more BS, on the attacks of the time with no clue whatsoever. Even if that, Sehwag in this very generation will not be picked by vast majority over even the likes of Greame Smith in a Test XI, let alone someone like a Hutton whose pedigree, he will never hold a candle to.
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More wisdom. 10 times more astute captain than MSD? No' date=' he is not. He is notorious for losing a lot of finals, compounded of course by his own inept play at the top of the order. [/quote'] Yes, because winning or losing a final is relevant when evaluating how good a captain is tactically. Genius. So tell me, genius, how do you correlate field placement and bowler rotation with winning or not winning, since regardless of how good a captain you are, your bowlers still have to bowl at the right places and batsmen have to bat properly for your great captaincy to bear out. Makes no sense. Perfect example of 'hindsight is 20/20' type of illogical and revisionist thinking. Gangu wasnt the first to insert the aussies on winning the toss in a major match, he wasnt the last either. Its a viable option in South Africa especially: Gilly has always been hit or miss and Hayden uncomfortable with steep bounce. If India could've dismissed Gilly & Hayden early, they'd be in the driver's seat. Tactically sound but as it happened, Punter had different ideas and made a tactically sound decision seem like a joke to jokers like you, who only apply hindsight. That is your opinion, not the opinion of experts who consistently pick Ganguly as one of the greatest openers the game has ever seen. Two bit kids like you who barely understand the sport and has barely seen the sport for a few years wont trump that. I have diverted no attention, it is you who is diverting attention from my expose on you as nothing more than a blatant liar & twister of an argument by disingenous comments. Or its an expose on you lacking fundamental analysis skills such as controls to a comparative situation. Its you who is running away from my post at 5:25pm
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Im going to fill this thread with random all time dream teams Heres a subcontinent XI vs World XI ODIs Ganguly Tendulkar Jayasuriya Jayawardene Inzamam MS Dhoni Imran Khan Kapil Dev Wasim Akram Saqlain Muralitharan vs Mark Waugh Adam Gilchrist Ricky Ponting J Kallis V Richards M Hussey L Klusener G Swann S Warne J Garner C Ambrose

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Pick up a first grade book before long (38 to 30 apparently is not much)' date=' and look yourself in the mirror before calling someone else a kid. [/quote'] First grade book or 2nd grade book, there is not much of a difference between averaging 30 and averaging 38 in a cricketing context on special select situations. Sorry kid, it is you who has no clue. None so amazing a chronicler of cricket as C.B.Fry has stated the obvious difficulty in comarping Sutcliffe/Hobbs to modern day openers: for you cannot compare openers who batted on uncovered wickets against military medium pacers and spinners against those who open on covered wickets against express pace bowlers. Apples to oranges. That is why Sutcliffe rarely ever features in these discussions and Hobbs is the only other pre-war batsman along with Bradman to be considered relevant to the modern game- predominantly because Hobbs was an excellent batsman into his 50s. That is your opinion. Not that of experts who consistently rate Sehwag as one of the greatest openers ever, especially factoring in that he is the ONLY opener in history of test cricket to average 50+ at opening without even being a specialist opener.
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