5th bowling option in Tests

[Muloghonto]

Who are they ? I dont think any of our current top six can qualify as a 5th bowler in test cricket, not even in the 'Duminy/Tendulkar' sense of putting 10-15 overs an innings that wont get absolutely smashed. We need to address this soon or this would be our undoing overseas in the future. I think Test Cricket in the last 8-10 years has demonstrated that you cannot go into a test match with strictly 4 bowlers unless atleast 1-2 of those bowlers are ATGs in great form. Lacking a decisive strike bowler, we cannot afford to have just 4 bowlers operate away. This would lead to 'boom or total bust' overseas, as our inability to maintain pressure after 70-80 overs is telling. We need a bowling philosophy where we can maintain solid pressure for 100-110 overs on average, since we are not going to blow away teams in under 80 overs consistently. I have my ideas but i am curious to see what fellow ICFers think.

[JourneyMan]

Our best bet is that Jaddu's batting comes good. Personally I think it will.

[ThePhenomenal1]

6 batsmen, Dhoni (WKB), Jadeja (Spinner + Bat), 3 pacers We could have a batsmen who bowls spin too, like a yuvraj but better. Manoj Tiwary - bowls good spin. Remember him taking 4 wickets vs sri lanka. Good bat and fielder too. He would replace rohit but then we don't know if he could fight steyn and co. Rishi Dhawan - the best seam bowling allrounder? No idea, heard he is decent but pace is not that high. Maybe better for ODIs. Nayar - Heard he bowls medium pace too and a good bat? Hope Jaddu's batting comes good. He is getting out to duminy now... anyhow, lets take 20 wickets first of all. Can't even do that with current attack. Jadeja and shami stay, then bring in two hungry pacers. Once our bowlers win us matches, then we can worry about allrounders

[Muloghonto]

I disagree that 'once our bowler wins us matches, we then worry about allrounders'. In theory, you need 4 frontline bowlers but those 4 have to be either very good or going through a purple patch to take 20 wickets between them. Otherwise purely 4 bowlers becomes a problem because none of the bowlers are incisive enough consistently to bundle out teams in 80-90 overs. This leads to exhaustion from bowlers and loss of overall bowling quality when 4 tired bowlers are bowling. A 5th bowler option works excellently at keeping bowlers fresh and thus making the overall unit a lot better. This is how many an average bowling attack has 'papered over their bowling cracks' and soldiered on. England did this with Flintoff in the side and the English bowlers did a whole lot better with Flintoff around to provide 10-15 overs an innings. Watson is doing the same job for the Aussies. Kallis too did this job in between the Pollock-Donald and Steyn-Morkel years, when South Africa didnt have a very strong bowling attack. Last two innings India has bowled, it has underlined the need for a 5th bowler who could bowl 15 overs without being walloped. It'd have kept Zak & Shami a whole lot fresher. If Jaddu or Ashwin's batting comes along good enough for them to be a top six batsman ( by that i mean average 35+ overseas), then it would be the biggest gain in Indian test cricket for over a decade. For then it'd allow us to play 4 bowlers plus Ashwin/Jaddu. That way, we can bowl with pressure well beyond 100 overs per innings in a test.

[fineleg]

Only way is if Jaddu or Ashwin prove reliable in batting. It will take us the NZ series and then Eng series before we know if this strategy of "batting" reliability of Jaddu or Ashwin will work out. In meanwhile, keep others such as Rishi Dhawan in the periphery.

[The Outsider]

I like the sentiment of the thread, but the fact is Ashwin and Jadeja despite being useful lower order batsmen or having the potential to be that in Jadeja's case are never going to be good enough for a top 6 spot. Moreover, what the team needs is a part time seam bowler as the 5th bowler option, not a spinner.

[Muloghonto]

I like the sentiment of the thread' date=' but the fact is Ashwin and Jadeja despite being useful lower order batsmen or having the potential to be that in Jadeja's case are never going to be good enough for a top 6 spot. Moreover, what the team needs is a part time seam bowler as the 5th bowler option, not a spinner.[/quote'] It doesnt matter if the 5th bowling option is a seam or spin option. What they would be required to do, is bowl 15-20 overs max without being smashed. Something like 20-5-60-1 or so. At current levels, overseas, Ashwin is more than enough for a 5th bowling option. Question is, can Ashwin get 200 odd runs in a 6-7 innings span ? IMO, its worth a shot. Either against New Zealand or against England, we should try and see what the upper limit of Ashwin's batting is. He doesnt have to be a top six batsman to bat in the top six overseas IMO. If he can average 35+ as a #6 with the bat, it would be more than enough. Jadeja at this point has to be considered our primier overseas spin option for now. If his batting clicks, then this debate is over. If not, the question is, do we blood Rishi Dhawan or Ashwin into the top six ? As such, i'd look for a lineup of: Dhawan Vijay Pujara Kohli Rahane Ashwin/Dhawan Dhoni Jadeja as our top 8. The rest 3 can be 3 of Zaheer, Umesh, Shami, Bhuvi and....anyone but Ishant. Bowling-wise, it would be extremely well balanced. Batting wise, well i think Ashwin has earned a limited audition at #6 with two test tons. It was against weak bowling opposition at home, but still, two test tons batting with the tail and looking comfortable in South Africa is worth the risk, IMO.

[The Outsider]

The problem with your argument is you are lending too much credence to the batting of Ashwin and Jadeja. Batting at number 6 requires specialist skills like facing the second new ball, which neither is capable of on evidence so far.

[Muloghonto]

The problem with your argument is you are lending too much credence to the batting of Ashwin and Jadeja. Batting at number 6 requires specialist skills like facing the second new ball' date=' which neither is capable of on evidence so far.[/quote'] Didnt Ashwin face the 2nd new ball in the first test and did okay ? He also faced the 2nd new ball atleast once when he scored a century. Granted, he most likely does not have it to survive the 2nd new ball consistently but inability to survive the 2nd new ball isnt going to completely KO a #6 batsman in tests, especially if he is around to lend a 5th bowling option. I can think of a certain Andrew Flintoff who provided what i am seeking for from Ashwin: a low/mid 30s average while batting at top six and bowling as the 5th bowler overseas.

[fineleg]

Sehwag, Tendulkar, Ganguly could bowl. So may need bowling (5 overs) from Rohit Sharma or Dhawan or Kohli. They need to put their hands up over next year or two.

[The Outsider]

5th bowling option in Tests

Didnt Ashwin face the 2nd new ball in the first test and did okay ? He also faced the 2nd new ball atleast once when he scored a century. Granted' date=' he most likely does not have it to survive the 2nd new ball consistently but inability to survive the 2nd new ball isnt going to completely KO a #6 batsman in tests, especially if he is around to lend a 5th bowling option. I can think of a certain Andrew Flintoff who provided what i am seeking for from Ashwin: a low/mid 30s average while batting at top six and bowling as the 5th bowler overseas.[/quote'] I am sure he has been successful at times, but ideally one would like someone like Laxman, Flintoff, or even a Shastri at the spot. If you think he is a good enough batsman as Shastri, fine. I have my doubts.

[zumi]

i have seen Rohit Sharma bowl decent off spin but really need his batting to click overseas.

[urbestfriend]

our best bet is playing Ashwin , Jadeja and Bhuvi at 7,8, 9 and ask them to improve their batting abilities. Dhoni should play at 6.

[saneindian]

Rohit is a good enough part timer if used properly, Dhawan bowls decent off spin. Dhoni will need to start giving them more confidence by bowling them in ODIs

[PAA-G]

Dhawan can do wat duminy does for saffers....n kohli can do wat ganguly used to do....though i think kohli should start bowling in nets....can probably become the batting med-pace bowling allrounder if he can gain some pace....if he can improve his speed to 120-130 k's which comes with practice becoz wasim akram once said that gyming n excercising wont help build up ur speed....it is the fast bowling muscles which will help build up your speed....so let him bowl an hour and a half in nets and you may find kohli playing the same role for India what kallis had been doing for Saffers so long now....

[Muloghonto]

I dont think Kohli or Pujara should bother with bowling. They are the only two 'must plays' in our top order at the moment and they are both yet to play 25 tests. Too much distraction/responsibility for them IMO. Let them be the batting lynchpins of Indian test team. Virat is already an excellent fielder and Pujara can turn out to be a decent close-in fielder. Our 5th bowling option has to come from our #5 or #6. Dhoni is not competent enough to bat at #6 overseas, our need for allrounder is an overseas only concern: In India we are going to play 2 spinners + 2 pacers and more often than not roll over most batting sides twice. At home we can get away with- comfortably mind you- with 4 bowlers. But overseas is where we really need a fifth bowling option. We do not have pace bowlers capable of taking 5-6 wickets overseas per test and average 22-25 range. We do not have a once-in-a-lifetime spinner like Murali, Kumble or Warne, we do not have 'special doosra spinning offies' like Ajmal. So we need five competent bowlers to shoulder the load.

[Muloghonto]

I am sure he has been successful at times' date=' but ideally one would like someone like Laxman, Flintoff, or even a Shastri at the spot. If you think he is a good enough batsman as Shastri, fine. I have my doubts.[/quote'] I do think he can be as good as Shastri in Tests but he needs to bat higher for us to find out. Ashwin has looked very assured against pacey & bouncy bowlers. Yes, he 'reaches around' a bit against bowlers who can swing it, but then again, most top order batsmen are found wanting against swing bowlers, so lets not judge Ashwin by the highest standards of batting- yet. He looks pretty assured against pace & bounce, has a good idea where his offstump is and most significantly, has a solid front foot defence. Ironically i think Ashwin might struggle a bit against spinners on spin-friendly tracks but he looks dour enough to eke out runs in Australia or England.

[GautiMaan]

Dhawan can do wat duminy does for saffers....n kohli can do wat ganguly used to do....though i think kohli should start bowling in nets....can probably become the batting med-pace bowling allrounder if he can gain some pace....if he can improve his speed to 120-130 k's which comes with practice becoz wasim akram once said that gyming n excercising wont help build up ur speed....it is the fast bowling muscles which will help build up your speed....so let him bowl an hour and a half in nets and you may find kohli playing the same role for India what kallis had been doing for Saffers so long now....

I read somewhere that Jaddu can also bowl seam up he should work on that aspect,he can then open the bowling on days 1 and 2,bowl spin when the pitch begins to aid turn..kinda like what Sobers did for windies for so long

[PAA-G]

I read somewhere that Jaddu can also bowl seam up he should work on that aspect' date='he can then open the bowling on days 1 and 2,bowl spin when the pitch begins to aid turn..kinda like what Sobers did for windies for so long[/quote'] +1

[Vijy]

This is what I'd suggest: Dhoni at 6, followed by Ashwin, Jadeja, R. Dhawan and B. Kumar at 7-10. At No.11 would be our only rabbit Shami. Dhoni certainly can't bat at 6, but the combined strength of the 7-10 might offset this. However, the above lineup is best only for swinging/seaming conditions. In places like Oz and SA where there's more bounce than seam/swing one would need to replace Rishi/Bhuvi with a more out and out pacer like Yadav and that would weaken the tail. Similarly, in spinning conditions one would need to replace Bhuvi/Dhawan with Ojha. Both these moves (on pacy and spin wickets) would weaken the batting lineup somewhat. India really need to hope Aparajith improves his bowling... a lot.