speed and performance of indian pacers in ipl

[Old guy]

No it does not. I am agreeing to what Rkt is saying. You can have two pitched up balls by the same pacer.. One where he hits the deck hard and has bowled it at 143 k and hits the bat hard. Another which is floated and looks ordinary but released at 149 k.

That is not possible specially at reduced pace You can have one slower ball loopy so that it swings in air like steyn does but it cannot be opposite Many bowlers mix them but your examples are a wrong they should be opposite

[Old guy]

Good example is steyn only he bowls deadly big swinging out swingers at 135 k while when he quickens up he usually bowls cross seamed shorter balls at more pace so that he gets more bounce

[express bowling]

That is not possible specially at reduced pace You can have one slower ball loopy so that it swings in air like steyn does but it cannot be opposite Many bowlers mix them but your examples are a wrong they should be opposite

I would ask again, have you actually been taught how to bowl and have you actually bowled with a cricket ball ? The grip used ... loose or tight , is one of the biggest factors contributing. The seam position , the underspin imparted etc. also contribute. Watch a pacer bowl tomorrow carefully, the type of delivery and the speed gun reading.

[Old guy]

I would ask again, have you actually been taught how to bowl and have you actually bowled with a cricket ball ? The grip used ... loose or tight , is one of the biggest factors contributing. The seam position , the underspin imparted etc. also contribute. Watch a pacer bowl tomorrow carefully, the type of delivery and the speed gun reading.

Yes I have and even tried to swing ball you can see other thread where I was talking about how hard it is to bowl like southee I was better leg spinner like Chawla :cantstop: What you say is true but that is exactly I and saying with tighter grip ball will be delivered quicker And speed gun reads speed of ball releasing from hand it does not cares about angle :winky: Anyway get a ball and ask some one to face with tight grip it would be much quicker than lose grip in real cricket you actually cannot change grip much otherwise you become ishant sharma :cantstop:

[rajmarie]

Good example is steyn only he bowls deadly big swinging out swingers at 135 k while when he quickens up he usually bowls cross seamed shorter balls at more pace so that he gets more bounce

The purpose of cross seam is not to get more bounce. Try using cross seam & see the result. The primary purpose is to scruff up the sides of the ball to help in reverse later on. It is also a way to bowl a straight ball which is not supposed to swing either way. But cross seams also mean that it can land on the seam itself....& it can behave in a way that the bowler don't intend...like bounce more or keep low.

[express bowling]

@ sabby What you are saying is true if you consider speed at the batsman's end. A tighter gripped ball loses less speed. But a looser gripped ball may have a higher release speed... which is what the tv shows us.

[Old guy]

The purpose of cross seam is not to get more bounce. Try using cross seam & see the result. The primary purpose is to scruff up the sides of the ball to help in reverse later on. It is also a way to bowl a straight ball which is not supposed to swing either way. But cross seams also mean that it can land on the seam itself....& it can behave in a way that the bowler don't intend...like bounce more or keep low.

Yes but I was making point about pace and length and how it effects bounce even without seam in play Also he gets more control win cross seam delivery and helps ball grip harder

[Old guy]

@ sabby What you are saying is true if you consider speed at the batsman's end. A tighter gripped ball loses less speed. But a looser gripped ball may have a higher release speed... which is what the tv shows us.

Bowl Yorker it will be same Bowl on marble tile and it will be same ...trust me not only what you are saying does not makes sense in physics but also we have example in real life You need to be tall or quick to hit pitch harder from good length and get more bounce that's why I asked for example ...

[express bowling]

The purpose of cross seam is not to get more bounce. Try using cross seam & see the result. The primary purpose is to scruff up the sides of the ball to help in reverse later on. It is also a way to bowl a straight ball which is not supposed to swing either way. But cross seams also mean that it can land on the seam itself....& it can behave in a way that the bowler don't intend...like bounce more or keep low.

True.

[express bowling]

Bowl Yorker it will be same Bowl on marble tile and it will be same ...trust me not only what you are saying does not makes sense in physics but also we have example in real life You need to be tall or quick to hit pitch harder from good length and get more bounce that's why I asked for example ...

Are you trying to say that the same release speed would always result in the same speed at the batsman's end ?

[rajmarie]

Yes but I was making point about pace and length and how it effects bounce even without seam in play Also he gets more control win cross seam delivery and helps ball grip harder

That is not true. When holding the ball cross seam...atleast in my experience...the ball fells slippery specially if its new. Also it takes a lot of practice to bowl the cross seam properly...otherwise it will end up in the boundry :winky:

[Old guy]

Are you trying to say that the same release speed would always result in the same speed at the batsman's end ?

No I am saying is if you want to hit the track hard you have to release the ball quicker if you are trying to do it from same height I am well aware of fact that ball loses pace after pitching but it has so many different factors in play but what you are asking is hitting the pitch hard and yes for that you have to release the ball quicker with more energy and one way of doing is to have harder grip so that admire energy from your arm transfers to ball but that will mean more speed of ball And this is reason no 130 k spbowler with short height has even been described as hit the track kind of bowler :winky: You either need to be tall or quick

[Old guy]

That is not true. When holding the ball cross seam...atleast in my experience...the ball fells slippery specially if its new. Also it takes a lot of practice to bowl the cross seam properly...otherwise it will end up in the boundry :winky:

You did not get control part See when you bowl with seam up bowl swings left or right in over cast conditions So if you are aiming for control you bowl cross seam so that ball does not swings in air and misses the line to want to hit

[express bowling]

No I am saying is if you want to hit the track hard you have to release the ball quicker if you are trying to do it from same height I am well aware of fact that ball loses pace after pitching but it has so many different factors in play but what you are asking is hitting the pitch hard and yes for that you have to release the ball quicker with more energy and one way of doing is to have harder grip so that admire energy from your arm transfers to ball but that will mean more speed of ball And this is reason no 130 k spbowler with short height has even been described as hit the track kind of bowler :winky: You either need to be tall or quick

I agree with many of the points in this post. Always have. But, they have never been the point of this debate. We started this debate comparing the relative ability of Philander and Sandeep Sharma ( or other Indian medium pacers ) to use the deck hitting balls. They will never be as good as Morkel. But, the pacer who has the intention , technique and practice to hit the deck will do it better than the one who does not. Indian seamers are not coached to used this technique and they end up succeeding only when the ball is swinging. Even a short medium pacer can use some bounce as a variation even though it will never be his primary weapon. Another issue is, why are you assuming that length will not get shorter. Saffers and Aussie pacers, with generally more shoulder strength than our pacers, tend to use the shorter balls more, even if they are medium pace. P.s - Mohit Sharma, who bowls 130 to 135 k in domestic cricket and is undoubtedly short, is actually known as a deck hitting bowler. I am giving you a current example. Every cricket expert describes him as such.

[rajmarie]

You did not get control part See when you bowl with seam up bowl swings left or right in over cast conditions So if you are aiming for control you bowl cross seam so that ball does not swings in air and misses the line to want to hit

Again not true. If you see in world cricket...there are some true swing bowlers....& then there are some who need help. & just to finish it off...because it can be ones own decision...but to bowl cross seam so as to not swing is strange.

[Old guy]

Again not true. If you see in world cricket...there are some true swing bowlers....& then there are some who need help. & just to finish it off...because it can be ones own decision...but to bowl cross seam so as to not swing is strange.

Actually it is very common to bowl cross seam for more control just because ur not aware of ot does not make it un true and bowlers some times swing the bowl so much that they lose of troll it's very common in England and so they bowl cross seam so that they can control it and get rhythm

[Old guy]

I agree with many of the points in this post. Always have. But, they have never been the point of this debate. We started this debate comparing the relative ability of Philander and Sandeep Sharma ( or other Indian medium pacers ) to use the deck hitting balls. They will never be as good as Morkel. But, the pacer who has the intention , technique and practice to hit the deck will do it better than the one who does not. Indian seamers are not coached to used this technique and they end up succeeding only when the ball is swinging. Even a short medium pacer can use some bounce as a variation even though it will never be his primary weapon. Another issue is, why are you assuming that length will not get shorter. Saffers and Aussie pacers, with generally more shoulder strength than our pacers, tend to use the shorter balls more, even if they are medium pace. P.s - Mohit Sharma, who bowls 130 to 135 k in domestic cricket and is undoubtedly short, is actually known as a deck hitting bowler. I am giving you a current example. Every cricket expert describes him as such.

Saffers and Aussie pacers are on average more quicker than our bowler so they can get more,life of full ball Also Mohit sharma is no way in hell hit the deck bowler or not good one he seams the ball you are confusing seam bowlers and hit the deck bowlers Mohit is closer to philander because he moves ball of seam like philander that has nothing to do with hitting the deck that's more about landing bowl on seam with good action and moving ball of pitch rather than air Hitting the deck is bowling ball quick and by tall pacer and extracting life out of track like morkel does There is a reason every hit the deck bowler is tall and quick when you are short you become skiddy like umesh and best bowler in world steyn Just look at morkel and he is ur hit the deck bowler Steyn is swing bowler who skids the ball even when bowling bouncer and philander is seam bowler who occasionally swings the ball let's not confuse between them Look at English side broad and the left when he was quick hit the deck while Anderson is swing bowler Broad is one guy who did well in Australia because he had pace and hit deck while the let who was last time 140 k bowler and destroyed Aussies sucked this time with 140 k bowling and that guy is huge ! So you need pace to hit the deck I can give you more examples if you want to but top of my head term let is best example which explains what I am saying What simple thing you don't get is to hit the deck harde with ball which has Same mass you need more speed it's simple Energy transfers in form of speed they way you do it is my ch aging wrist position or strong shoulders but the end result is not dispute able that you need more pace to hit the deck harder If I throw bowl at 20 km per hour and hit you it will hurt in same way as any 20 km ph bowl it does not matter if I used shoulder to throw it or just my fingers Also if you bowl u will know to use ur shoulder will mean you are putting more behind ball and it is delivered much more quickly ...when I was fit and I. Form I was able to bowl like that but with less control but speed increased so much ..

[MCcricket]

I believe hit the deck is not about only pace or height it is the combination of a particular kind of action, good wrist behind the ball and pace, Kallis was not tall or express but he hit the deck hard when he was at his peak, same with Philander he is not tall or pacy but because of his action and wrist he gets good movement of the seam and lift, if u r a seam bowler compared to swing bowler when u hit the wicket hard you get more deviation of the track of a fuller length. Among Indian pacers Aaron, Zak , Sreenath did hit the deck , whereas Sreesanth, irfan, RP skid the ball, Steyn can do both as he has excellent wrist and a strong action and he can seam and swing also adjusts his length per format and track which very few bowlers can do well. Ishant when he was very successful he had a good wrist, better action and used to hit deck hard and got more of the track and those big indippers

[Old guy]

I believe hit the deck is not about only pace or height it is the combination of a particular kind of action, good wrist behind the ball and pace, Kallis was not tall or express but he hit the deck hard when he was at his peak, same with Philander he is not tall or pacy but because of his action and wrist he gets good movement of the seam and lift, if u r a seam bowler compared to swing bowler when u hit the wicket hard you get more deviation of the track of a fuller length. Among Indian pacers Aaron, Zak , Sreenath did hit the deck , whereas Sreesanth, irfan, RP skid the ball, Steyn can do both as he has excellent wrist and a strong action and he can seam and swing also adjusts his length per format and track which very few bowlers can do well. Ishant when he was very successful he had a good wrist, better action and used to hit deck hard and got more of the track and those big indippers

You people are just confusing hitting deck hard and getting movement off seam from deck IMO they are different things Maybe what he meant was Sandeep is swing bowler while philander is seam bowler and is better suited for tests and I whole heartedly agree with this ..I was just trolling with that comparison because others were saying crap and comparing him to vinay...:winky: But hitting deck hard is different from hitting seam and getting movement ...morkel does the first and philander the later...

[MCcricket]

You people are just confusing hitting deck hard and getting movement off seam from deck IMO they are different things Maybe what he meant was Sandeep is swing bowler while philander is seam bowler and is better suited for tests and I whole heartedly agree with this ..I was just trolling with that comparison because others were saying crap and comparing him to vinay...:winky: But hitting deck hard is different from hitting seam and getting movement ...morkel does the first and philander the later...

Hit the deck bowlers comparatively get more bounce then a similar bowler as far as pace n height, who skids or swings the ball, Shami for example although he is on the smaller side due to his action n excellent wrist he gets better lift then similar bowlers, most AUSTRALIAN bowlers are hit the deck as their conditions favor that kinda bowling, Staarc is tall and quick but he doesn't hit the deck hard, Pattinson hits the deck harder.