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speed and performance of indian pacers in ipl


vishalvirsingh

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that is stupid so you are saying hitting the seam =hitting the deck and if bowl is crossed seam it is not hitting the deck hard ? admit it or not but calling it seam movement makes lot more sense but you guys obviously wont back off so whats the point :giggle:
But cross seam bowling is not a norm and is never termed as hit the deck bowling. Cross seam is only done on occasions to get variable bounce, or rough up the ball, or to get control when ball is swinging too much. Cross seam is a ploy to induce some variability in bowling while hitting the deck is to get bounce and zip off the surface along with seam movement by hitting the seam. Tell me one thing, when swing bowlers and seam bowlers both the hit the seam then what's the difference between swing and seam bowlers?
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But cross seam bowling is not a norm and is never termed as hit the deck bowling. Cross seam is only done on occasions to get variable bounce, or rough up the ball, or to get control when ball is swinging too much. Cross seam is a ploy to induce some variability in bowling while hitting the deck is to get bounce and zip off the surface along with seam movement by hitting the seam. Tell me one thing, when swing bowlers and seam bowlers both the hit the seam then what's the different between swing and seam bowlers?
but cross seam bowling exists even if it is not norm and seam bowling and hitting the deck hard are done in tandem most of the times but they are not one thing and they are not interchangeable philander does not hits deck harder than mitchell starc that is the problem with your description he does indeed move the ball off seam much more than starc but he does not hits the track harder than starc who is much taller and much quicker and about your second question its very simple swing happens in air seam movement happens when ball hits the track on seam and moves in either direction they can happen in same delivery (bhuvan did it ) and primary difference between swing bowler is that he swings the ball in the air and seam bowler moves the ball of track and if he can do it both than he can be called anything (its not important ) mohammad asif was one guy who moved the ball of seam i aways called him seam bowler and you might even remember our discussion from last year about mohit sharma how he keeps things simple and bowls at length and moves the ball off seam a bit i specifically mentioned asif even back then
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i am 100 percent sure starc bowling at 145 k hits track harder than mohit bowling at 135k this is the problem what you wanna csay is hits the seam and moves the ball and what you guys are saying is hitting the deck i think there is problem with description here just because starc swings the bowl does not means his bowl hits the pitch less harder than mohit sharma (obviously presuming they hit same length ) it is just not possible nad you can measure it with pressure sensors it is jsut not possible specially because starc is taller too yeah i can agree that mohit seams the ball and starc doesn ot but again that is the entire point :cantstop:
We are discussing bowling styles while you are confusing it with absolute pace being felt at the batsman's end. Another thing.... the pace being felt by the batsman is affected by the seam position, the underspin imparted on the ball, etc. not just release speed and height.
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We are discussing bowling styles while you are confusing it with absolute pace being felt at the batsman's end. Another thing.... the pace being felt by the batsman is affected by the seam position, the underspin imparted on the ball, etc. not just release speed and height.
how does it makes any difference ? starc hits bowl harder when it hits pitch it hits much harder than any bowl philander bowls what you are describing is seam movement but what you are calling it is hitting the deck that is the problem otherwise we both agree on what philander has and what indian bowlers lack
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We are discussing bowling styles while you are confusing it with absolute pace being felt at the batsman's end. Another thing.... the pace being felt by the batsman is affected by the seam position, the underspin imparted on the ball, etc. not just release speed and height.
also please read this
philander does not hits deck harder than mitchell starc that is the problem with your description he does indeed move the ball off seam much more than starc but he does not hits the track harder than starc who is much taller and much quicker
and seam bowling and hitting the deck hard are done in tandem most of the times but they are not one thing and they are not interchangeable
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but cross seam bowling exists even if it is not norm and seam bowling and hitting the deck hard are done in tandem most of the times but they are not one thing and they are not interchangeable philander does not hits deck harder than mitchell starc that is the problem with your description he does indeed move the ball off seam much more than starc but he does not hits the track harder than starc who is much taller and much quicker and about your second question its very simple swing happens in air seam movement happens when ball hits the track on seam and moves in either direction they can happen in same delivery (bhuvan did it ) and primary difference between swing bowler is that he swings the ball in the air and seam bowler moves the ball of track and if he can do it both than he can be called anything (its not important ) mohammad asif was one guy who moved the ball of seam i aways called him seam bowler and you might even remember our discussion from last year about mohit sharma how he keeps things simple and bowls at length and moves the ball off seam a bit i specifically mentioned asif even back then
But there must be something which enables the ball to deviate off the seam for a seam bowler and that thing is what is hitting the seam called hit the deck. And no BK does not seam the ball. He swings the ball when there is swing in the air. He does not seam when there is no swing. Seam means you deviate the ball when there is no swing in the air. BK does not do that. You are confusing saying he moves in the air and off the track too and that is seam, no that is not seam. Ball kisses the surface continue to move the way it was swinging in the air. Regarding Philander he might not hit the seam harder than Starc but he certainly hit harder than BK and and for his pace, it makes the difference when batsmen face him. Philander is quicker when faced for his pace because he gets the zip of the seam by hitting it harder than say Bhuvi which is what surprises the batsmen and his seam movement off the deck is difficult to decipher. Whenever a batsman faces a bowler, he has certain pace in mind and adjust his reflexes according to that. Philander deceives them in that regard because of his pace and bounce off the deck. You can look at pace 130 on speed guns, but speed shown on speed gun is not everything that is associated with bowling. There are other factors which are never measured.
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But there must be something which enables the ball to deviate off the seam for a seam bowler and that thing is what is hitting the seam called hit the deck. And no BK does not seam the ball. He swings the ball when there is swing in the air. He does not seam when there is no swing. Seam means you deviate the ball when there is no swing in the air. BK does not do that. You are confusing saying he moves in the air and off the track too and that is seam, no that is not seam. Ball kisses the surface continue to move the way it was swinging in the air. Regarding Philander he might not hit the seam harder than Starc but he certainly hit harder than BK and and for his pace, it makes the difference when batsmen face him. Philander is quicker when faced for his pace because he gets the zip of the seam by hitting it harder than say Bhuvi which is what surprises the batsmen and his seam movement off the deck is difficult to decipher. Whenever a batsman faces a bowler, he has certain pace in mind and adjust his reflexes according to that. Philander deceives them in that regard because of his pace and bounce off the deck. You can look at pace 130 on speed guns, but speed shown on speed gun is not everything that is associated with bowling. There are other factors which are never measured.
no no about bk i said he once did it not everytime i am not confusing it at all i remember his one ball was swinging in air but after pitching it deviated away on seam and you actually wrote in match thread that it moved off seam please do not confuse it with my understanding of seam and swing sometimes both can happen at same time and some times one or anoter but simply put if ball moves in air its swing and if ball moves of seam after pitching its seam movement about batsmen getting decieved that is purey because of deviation philander gets from same area of pitch both ways and some times extra bounce even at 135 k batsmen have to premeditate the shot and start playng shot almost at time of release of ball and sometimes even little before that and when ball moves of track with no sign of movement in air they get fooled and htis is reason why i believe seam bowling is superior to swing bowling vernon philander does not gets wickets because of his pace he gets wicket because he seams the ball both ways with pin point accuracy without any sign and batsmen are normally clueless btw when philander bwols length which bk does he looks slow slow too but when he bowls bit shorter and gets movement of seam he looks quicker but looks does not means that in reality he is quicker batsmen just find him harder to face because of sudden movement of ball and you cannot premeditate the shot and that half a second makes whole lot of difference in cricket
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about something enabling ball to deviate difference between bk and philander is bk has seam position of a swing bowler facing slips or facing fine leg while philander has wobbly straight seam which gives it maximum chance of pitching on seam and deviating and like you said he can swing it too if he wants to but its rare

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please do not confuse it with my understanding of seam and swing sometimes both can happen at same time and some times one or anoter but simply put if ball moves in air its swing and if ball moves of seam after pitching its seam movement
Only if it changes direction after pitching then we can say it seamed. Like Anderson did to Clark in England Ashes. Ball swung in through the air and seamed away after pitching cartwheeling the off stump.
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vernon philander does not gets wickets because of his pace he gets wicket because he seams the ball both ways with pin point accuracy without any sign and batsmen are normally clueless btw when philander bwols length which bk does he looks slow slow too but when he bowls bit shorter and gets movement of seam he looks quicker but looks does not means that in reality he is quicker batsmen just find him harder to face because of sudden movement of ball and you cannot premeditate the shot and that half a second makes whole lot of difference in cricket
Philander mostly bowls on helpful pitches in SA. On those pitches if he hits the seam hard, he will eventually get seam movement. I wanted to know what different thing seam bowler does that they get seam while swing bowlers also hit the seam that difference is how much impact seam has on the pitch when it lands.
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Only if it changes direction after pitching then we can say it seamed. Like Anderson did to Clark in England Ashes. Ball swung in through the air and seamed away after pitching cartwheeling the off stump.
yes then we can see it clearly but some times ball ca even seam in after moving in but hard to really separate them :cantstop: but main thing is swing is in air and seam movement is from pitch right ?
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Philander mostly bowls on helpful pitches in SA. On those pitches if he hits the seam hard' date=' he will eventually get seam movement.[/quote'] yep but guy like morkel will also get help on flat sydney track because he actually hits the deck hard and philander is kind of useless there he is tight but not dangerous but someone who actually hits the deck very hard can extract life even on flat surfaces
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aactually even i wanted to know about seam bowling too and i have noticed few things first most of them have pin point straight seam (even zaheer did ) and many of them wobble it like asif and philander and third part the post important is action does not has much sling in it like hilfenous most of these bowlers have straight arm ,high arm action and bowl wicket to wicket while some one like bhuvi changes his angle of wrist and arm while swinging ball they are totaly straight and you can say seam moves backward when ball is moving forward while with swing bowlers its kind of angled so in short they lang bowl much more on seam than some one like bhuvi..

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how does it makes any difference ? starc hits bowl harder when it hits pitch it hits much harder than any bowl philander bowls what you are describing is seam movement but what you are calling it is hitting the deck that is the problem otherwise we both agree on what philander has and what indian bowlers lack
How does it make a difference ? When Philander is bowling , Starc or his pace does not come into the picture. Philly has the option of either floating the ball and trying to swing or hitting the deck and trying to get bounce and seam movement. Hit the bat harder than HE would if he just floats the ball. He uses both techniques whereas Indian medium pacers use just one technique. It is about the options and weapons Philander or Sandeep have. Starc does not come into the picture in this discussion.
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How does it make a difference ? When Philander is bowling , Starc or his pace does not come into the picture. Philly has the option of either floating the ball and trying to swing or hitting the deck and trying to get bounce and seam movement. Hit the bat harder than HE would if he just floats the ball. He uses both techniques whereas Indian medium pacers use just one technique. It is about the options and weapons Philander or Sandeep have. Starc does not come into the picture in this discussion.
Did you not read what I wrote on intention? Where did I say there is no difference in Indian bowlers or philander in that post ? I said it does not makes difference how you achieve speed starc hits the ground much much harder than philander and you can volunteer and ask them to bowl Yorker at ur feet :cantstop:
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Did you not read what I wrote on intention? Where did I say there is no difference in Indian bowlers or philander in that post ? I said it does not makes difference how you achieve speed starc hits the ground much much harder than philander and you can volunteer and ask them to bowl Yorker at ur feet :cantstop:
Where have I disputed that Starc can hit the deck harder than Philander when he wants to ? I have no doubt that he can. It is inconceivable why you are bringing this comparison when nobody is disagreeing with you on this point. You seem to forget the topic of discussion while debating.
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Where have I disputed that Starc can hit the deck harder than Philander when he wants to ? I have no doubt that he can. It is inconceivable why you are bringing this comparison when nobody is disagreeing with you on this point. You seem to forget the topic of discussion while debating.
You are the one who posted that You actually said Mohit sharma hits harder than starc Edit, you did not compare him but yes you did call him floater and you did say Mohit does it more Also topic is about bowlers and your theory of some one using shoulder will hit deck harder eve if ball is at same pace You actually said 143 k ball will hit deck harder than 150 k ball so yes it's related to discussion And about everything else I made everything clear and also showed why your way is misleading just read my posts for rkt
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