speed and performance of indian pacers in ipl

[Old guy]

that is stupid so you are saying hitting the seam =hitting the deck and if bowl is crossed seam it is not hitting the deck hard ? admit it or not but calling it seam movement makes lot more sense but you guys obviously wont back off so whats the point :giggle:

Just read this and posts from there I made my position and reasoning very clear from here now you can disagree but it will be ur loss as you will be left with inconsistent description of bowlers tbh not that it makes any difference but it will co fuse other people

[express bowling]

You are the one who posted that You actually said Mohit sharma hits harder than starc Edit, you did not compare him but yes you did call him floater and you did say Mohit does it more Also topic is about bowlers and your theory of some one using shoulder will hit deck harder eve if ball is at same pace You actually said 143 k ball will hit deck harder than 150 k ball so yes it's related to discussion And about everything else I made everything clear and also showed why your way is misleading just read my posts for rkt

I have never compared pacers of different speeds or heights. I have either compared different styles used by the same pacer or compared the styles of pacers with similar speeds and height. When I mentioned Mohit, it was to describe his bowling style. When I mentioned Starc, then too I described his style of bowling. In this IPL, Starc is registering very high speeds. But many of his deliveries are floated ones , designed to get swing and kiss the surface, even though they are clocking 146 or 147 k. Anybody who has actually played cricket can see that. It is a style of bowling employed by the bowler himself. Many factors are employed to achieve this some of which I know and some I don't. You are taking a very simplistic view on the subject... considering release speeds and height as the only parameters and getting confused. Only a pace bowling coach with good knowledge of physics and biomechanics will be able to point out all the factors. While bowling a bouncer, a bowler puts in the most effort. Anybody who has bowed pace knows it. Ask any pacer. Yet, the bouncers are rarely the quickest deliveries according to speed guns. Often slower by 5 or 7 k than the fastest delivery of the same pacer. Why do you think that is the case. Please answer this directly.

[vishalvirsingh]

How does it make a difference ? When Philander is bowling , Starc or his pace does not come into the picture. Philly has the option of either floating the ball and trying to swing or hitting the deck and trying to get bounce and seam movement. Hit the bat harder than HE would if he just floats the ball. He uses both techniques whereas Indian medium pacers use just one technique. It is about the options and weapons Philander or Sandeep have. Starc does not come into the picture in this discussion.

Philander is atleast 15k faster than sandeep n has much more swing than sandeep and three times more skillfull. Philannder bowls upto 143k sandy faster one is 127k.. In t 20 many a times batsman throw their wickets...they Actually r not won by bowler. Sandy is not a bowler who shud play for india if I m one of Selectors.

[vishalvirsingh]

maybe you guys are confusing losing pace off track with hitting deck :cantstop: ishant sharma used to have good seam position so when he hit track he used to get lot of movement and bounce of track but with bad seam position he even at 150 k does not gets same movement and bounce and looks mediocre

Ishant now a days bowls between 125 to 138k n not even one ball with Riight seam position. Ishant shud ideally not play for India now as there are atleast 6 pacers better than him in india.

[Old guy]

I have never compared pacers of different speeds or heights. I have either compared different styles used by the same pacer or compared the styles of pacers with similar speeds and height. When I mentioned Mohit, it was to describe his bowling style. When I mentioned Starc, then too I described his style of bowling. In this IPL, Starc is registering very high speeds. But many of his deliveries are floated ones , designed to get swing and kiss the surface, even though they are clocking 146 or 147 k. Anybody who has actually played cricket can see that. It is a style of bowling employed by the bowler himself. Many factors are employed to achieve this some of which I know and some I don't. You are taking a very simplistic view on the subject... considering release speeds and height as the only parameters and getting confused. Only a pace bowling coach with good knowledge of physics and biomechanics will be able to point out all the factors. While bowling a bouncer, a bowler puts in the most effort. Anybody who has bowed pace knows it. Ask any pacer. Yet, the bouncers are rarely the quickest deliveries according to speed guns. Often slower by 5 or 7 k than the fastest delivery of the same pacer. Why do you think that is the case. Please answer this directly.

Kissing surface is perception you get because he is bowling full If both Mohit and starc bowled same length starc will hit the pitch much harder than Mohit even if it looks otherwise Also bouncers are pitched closer to your body while full balls have to travel 17 years before pitching and it loses momentum that is a factor too that you don't get same bounce from full ball and they look like they kissed the surface Btw I am ignoring all factors What you are not getting is simple fact and please read this please ... All the factors you speak of LEAD to more pace..if you put more effort the ball will be delivered quicker it's basic physics and any one with hint of intuition about moving object can understand that Harder wrist position will LEAD to ball being delivers more quicker than loser one ...if you bowl just ask anyone to play against you and just bowl Yorker with both styles this is only way you will get what I am saying . Sorry for being rude but fact you thought ball can be less pact and yet hit pitch harder ( considering they are delivered from same height ,at same length ) just proves you are e one on wrong track Only reason I am still replying is it's nit just me being pedantic it's wrong information which has never really been discussed here and I have nothing against you I love your posts and I love the fact tour favourite bowler are most of times my favourite bowler and we have had many discussions before but his is wrong I am measuring speed before more effort leads to more speed other variables are not much effected specially if you put more back and shoulder Maybe ball hitting seam and jumping makes people think more effort was put but that is simple perception you get and about biomechanics and training they will again LEAD to more speed You are confusing between reasons between hitting the deck hard and result IMO

[express bowling]

@ sabby Could you define the point or points that you are trying to establish please and I will try to give an objective answer. Don't answer the points that you are trying to establish. Just state the points concisely. I also have a couple of questions for you relating to this issue which I will ask later. I hope you would answer them without going to other related isuues. Just the answers.

[Old guy]

@ sabby Could you define the point or points that you are trying to establish please and I will try to give an objective answer. Don't answer the points that you are trying to establish. Just state the points concisely. I also have a couple of questions for you relating to this issue which I will ask later. I hope you would answer them without going to other related isuues. Just the answers.

Simple point You are mixing seam bowling and hitting the deck hard and I already stated the difference in post in reply to rkt Try to understand this...when ball hits the seam and moves it's called seam bowling like what philander does he does not hits the deck hard that's misconception he just lands the ball on seam and gets movement,bounce etc Problem here is you are calling it hitting the deck hard which is false many times bowlers both seam the ball and hit deck hard but they are not same thing and cannot be used as substitute of each other For example if morkel bowls cross seamed ball does that mean he did not hit the deck hard ? Nope that means he did not hit the seam the impact at pitch is still same MY point simply is philander does not hit the deck any harder bowling at 130 k than any other bowler in world ( of same height and bowled at same length ) what he does differently is hit the seam of ball and move the ball of it unlike Bhuvan,Sandeep etc He is seaming the ball and you are calling it hitting the deck .. Now let me add something which will clarify it even more when you hit the seam sometimes you get lot more help from pitch and as we saw with ishant sharma you lose lot less pace when ball hits the track Same ball which is not hitting seam will not get lot of help from track and will slow down a lot more like ishant sharma of today now you might think he is not hitting the deck hard today the ishant sharma of today but he is hitting is as hard as 2008 sharma the only difference is he is not hitting the seam and losing lot more pace and getting lot less help .

[PBN]

sabby's writing his Phd thesis on cricket here. :hysterical:

[Old guy]

sabby's writing his Phd thesis on cricket here. :hysterical:

I am jobless after exams for week :haha:

[BlueBee]

Good debate going on between Sabby and Express bowling

[rkt.india]

Arey Sabby you cannot get seam movement without hitting the seam hard. Otherwise, it is swing, not seam. If you have tight grip, it means you are trying to hit the deck. Lose grip, you are trying swing. Philander does both things depending on conditions. Every bowler who hits the seam is a seam bowler. Even swing bowlers are also seam bowlers as they also hit the seam and can get seam movement. Difference is how they hit the seam on the pitch. Hit the deck bowlers are another type of seam bowlers. And do not talk about Ishant because he does not hit the seam.

[Old guy]

Arey Sabby you cannot get seam movement without hitting the seam hard. Otherwise, it is swing, not seam. If you have tight grip, it means you are trying to hit the deck. Lose grip, you are trying swing. Philander does both things depending on conditions. Every bowler who hits the seam is a seam bowler. Even swing bowlers are also seam bowlers as they also hit the seam and can get seam movement. Difference is how they hit the seam on the pitch. Hit the deck bowlers are another type of seam bowlers. And do not talk about Ishant because he does not hit the seam.

i never said techniques are same but instead of hitting hard its more about position of seam and release of ball and over all action as i said both things happen simultaneously but they are not one and same thing and philander for most part does not hit the deck hard and i have seen him from his first test match and never missed any match

[rkt.india]

i never said techniques are same but instead of hitting hard its more about position of seam and release of ball and over all action

yaar even swing bowlers like BK, Sandeep, PK have great seam position, but it does not make them actual seam bowlers though they can still get seam movement. Seam bowlers are always who hit the seam hard on the pitch with thrust of the wrist and shoulder to get variable seam movement. This is what Philander does. He gets seam movement where even he does not know which way the ball will move at most times because of the wobbly seam but because his line is so straight on off stump, it does not matter whichever ball seams, he is always in play. Same was with Asif and Ryan Harris too. They are seam bowlers who hit the deck hard.

[rkt.india]

as i said both things happen simultaneously but they are not one and same thing and philander for most part does not hit the deck hard and i have seen him from his first test match and never missed any match

Philander does both things depending on the pitch. Hit the deck does not always mean need pitch it short. Pattinson also hits the deck but he still bowls full. There is difference in release when you are trying to swing from full length or trying to hit hard on full length. Swing bowlers release it in the air with loose grip while if you want to hit the deck even on full ball, you will hold it tighter and give it thrust by you wrist and putting more shoulders.

[Old guy]

yaar even swing bowlers like BK' date=' Sandeep, PK have great seam position, but it does not make them actual seam bowlers though they can still get seam movement. Seam bowlers are always who hit the seam hard on the pitch with thrust of the wrist and shoulder to get variable seam movement. This is what Philander does. He gets seam movement where even he does not know which way the ball will move at most times because of the wobbly seam but because his line is so straight on off stump, it does not matter whichever ball seams, he is always in play. Same was with Asif and Ryan Harris too. They are seam bowlers who hit the deck hard.[/quote'] none of these swing bowlers even have straight seam like philander and please i already asked you to explain me how it hits seam harder? you all are going in circles here . i know what philander does we both agree with it but i do not agree with explanation its because of hitting seam hard at 130 k:haha: seen enough of his bowling on both flat and green tracks and he is no way in hell hitting the deck hard he is jsut landing the ball on seam with control like no one else and also very good simple high arm action which does not gives away any movement and allows him to bowl straight all day long

[Old guy]

i am asking you again how will ball hit harder at 130 k with same pace and same angle ? none of you explain this and like i sad before if he is putting more effort in ball the ball will be quicker too i would also like to know which commentator called him hit the deck bowler ?

[undisputed chap]

When will MI play supposedly best young left arm pacer suyal

[express bowling]

i am asking you again how will ball hit harder at 130 k with same pace and same angle ? none of you explain this and like i sad before if he is putting more effort in ball the ball will be quicker too i would also like to know which commentator called him hit the deck bowler ?

A ball delivered at the same release speed, from the same height may hit the deck as hard as any other similar delivery only if the ball used is a smooth sphere without any seam and the bowler is doing nothing special with his manner of delivery but is throwing with all his might. In cricket this does not happen. - A cricket ball has a seam. The way the ball is gripped with respect to the seam also causes the ball to rotate to different extents before pitching or maybe tilt or move on its axis. - Revolutions are put on the ball in the form of different degrees of under-spin at the time of release for different deliveries. - The surface of the balls are scruffed up differently. That causes different air drags at different points in an innings depending on the degree of scruffing up. Different teams scruff up surfaces to different extents also. - Pacers often try to swing the ball. This increases the distance to be covered till the ball hits the pitch. Also, swing which utilizes difference in air drag on either side of the ball, has the effect of reducing the speed of the ball when you compare it to a ball which is bowled straight ... even though both are bowled at the same speed and pitches at the same length. All the abovementioned factors cause different losses of speed for different deliveries from the point of release to the point of hitting the pitch. -Then there are the different atmospheric conditions like wind, presence of moisture in the air etc. In a nutshell, you are wrong in your assumption that in cricket, a ball released at the same speed from the same height and pitching at the same length will hit the pitch at the same speed always.... due to the reasons I have outlined above.

[Old guy]

A ball delivered at the same release speed, from the same height may hit the deck as hard as any other similar delivery only if the ball used is a smooth sphere without any seam and the bowler is doing nothing special with his manner of delivery but is throwing with all his might. In cricket this does not happen. - A cricket ball has a seam. The way the ball is gripped with respect to the seam also causes the ball to rotate to different extents before pitching. - Revolutions are put on the ball in the form of different degrees of under-spin at the time of release for different deliveries. - The surface of the balls are scruffed up differently. That causes different air drags at different points in an innings depending on the degree of scruffing up. Different teams scruff up surfaces to different extents also. - Pacers often try to swing the ball. This increases the distance to be covered till the ball hits the pitch. Also, swing which utilizes difference in air drag on either side of the ball, has the effect of reducing the speed of the ball when you compare it to a ball which is bowled straight ... even though both are bowled at the same speed and pitches at the same length. All the abovementioned factors cause different losses of speed for different deliveries from the point of release to the point of hitting the pitch. -Then there are the different atmospheric conditions like wind, presence of moisture in the air etc. Also, there are the different pitch types. In a nutshell, you are wrong in your assumption that in cricket, a ball released at the same speed from the same height and pitching at the same length will hit the pitch at the same speed always.... due to the reasons I have outlined above.

Everything you said is true but none of those skills is hitting the track hard Ball being rough gives you reverse I a air,ball hitting seam with good release gives you movement but it does not makes it hit the track harder than normal it just changes direction in which ball is spinning I am well aware of all these things and about cricket ball but this science you are using is pretty flunky tbh ball spinning backward,being rough having seam does not change the the force it hits the pitch Obviously there are many variables and many skill but that is not even discussion here it's your inaccurate description which does not even matches what you are saying

- A cricket ball has a seam. The way the ball is gripped with respect to the seam also causes the ball to rotate to different extents before pitching. - Revolutions are put on the ball in the form of different degrees of under-spin at the time of release for different deliveries. - The surface of the balls are scruffed up differently. That causes different air drags at different points in an innings depending on the degree of scruffing up. Different teams scruff up surfaces to different extents also. - Pacers often try to swing the ball. This increases the distance to be covered till the ball hits the pitch. Also, swing which utilizes difference in air drag on either side of the ball, has the effect of reducing the speed of the ball when you compare it to a ball which is bowled straight ... even though both are bowled at the same speed and pitches at the same length. All the abovementioned factors cause different losses of speed for different deliveries from the point of release to the point of hitting the pitch.

None of these things change the impact of ball on track and swing happens with low pressure and high pressure created on side of ball that's why it moves side ways Also air is always there and to push ball through it and hit track harder you need to bowl quicker How does it even remotely disputes what iam saying ? You guys keep on talking about these things when I have already wrote 10 times atleast that these all might be he skill you need but end result is in order to hit the track hard you put more force which means more speed and no moving ball side ways does not changes it much and shape of ball is already given and I already included it Everything you want to say here is that bowler hits the seam and moves which is exactly what I am saying that philander releases the ball beautifully and hits the seam with back spin or whatever he does and moves the ball but you are calling this hitting the deck ? Like I said you guys are not willing to admit just one little mistake you made that is calling this whole process hitting the deck hard which is wrong those whole skill of philander is seaming the ball by hitting the seam again and again Also please explain me the physics here how does hitting seam makes track hit harder ?this is some wonky science ...hitting the seam does not make ball hit deck harder it still hits at same force it just behaves differently since it's not smooth surface ,,got it ? It deviates after pitching and if it was smooth ball it won't move and since it has seam it moves ...hence it's called seam movement ! But force at which it hits deck is still same just that it does not bounces off straight since it has seam,since it's not smooth and it's rough and there is air which has low pressure areas and high pressure which moves he ball in air ..all these factors help bowlers move the ball but they do not change the force at which ball hits the deck .

[Old guy]

Also since you added lat part later the difference of air on ball at distance of 10 yards will be negligible Majority if pace of ball is lost at time when it's pitched not in air it de accelerates but release speed which is calculated actually counts this :winky: Rest of difference in air will be negligible not enough to have so much force that you can call it's reason ball is hitting deck hard I do not know how to calculate but after bowling even one over you can tell this much