Speeds and Performances of Pacers and Spinners

[Suhaan]

How tall was Shoaib Akhtar?Brett lee seemed taller than him

[Rightarmfast]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

i am talking from bio-mechanics perspective.  There is no better person to tell you about that than Ian Pont and i had posted that before too in the Nagarkot thread when people were questioning about his height.  if you check how low the fastest of the bowlers go to generate pace. i had posted that pic of Brett Lee and Donald in Nagarkoti thread with quotes from Ian Pont about height and pace and bounce. You need fast twitch fibers to generate pace short or tall.  The bowlers who have those can bowl fast regardless of what their biomechanics are.  I had the posted the picture of Starc in this thread recently that his biomchanics are not perfect as he bowled with a bent front foot but he still bowls fast.  

You are saying that height has nothing to do with pace, which is as wrong as one can get! Nagarkotti or Waqar could and can generate pace because they have worked extra on it. A short person will not be naturally as quick as someone 5-7 inches taller than him. Get your facts right. 

If it is difficult for you to understand this, I see no reason in stupid arguments because its like banging your head against a wall talking to you. Some of your posts are really devoid of common sense. 

[Rightarmfast]

4 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

How tall was Shoaib Akhtar?Brett lee seemed taller than him

Shoaib was around 5'11'. If you are trying to insinuate that Shoaib bowled faster because he was short, then please define short.

[ShebbySB]

The tallest or the shortest bowlers have never been the fastest.The fastest bowlers in history were all tallish to tall.

 

[Vilander]

25 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

How tall was Shoaib Akhtar?Brett lee seemed taller than him

Bret was 6'1 and Shoaib was 5'10 or 5'11 not much of a difference in height, and Lee was faster on average sustained high pace for longer. Neither of them can be called tall, both were pretty normal but well built.

[Vilander]

pure physics would be that if you have a longer sling ( longer bowling arm) you can exert more kinetic energy into the ball with same power than a shorter sling( shorter bowling arm), so shorter bowlers would probably have to put in that much more effort to bowl fast, makes sense why Ishant get injured the least in hip etc and Aaron has back and hip problems.

 

But a shorter arm would mean quicker arm action so there would be benefits in being more difficult to pick in same pace. There are benefits and disadvantages to both.

[Suhaan]

32 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Shoaib was around 5'11'. If you are trying to insinuate that Shoaib bowled faster because he was short, then please define short.

Did you anywhere find a hint that Im saying he bowled fast because of his short height??just was fervent to know about their height

Edited March 15, 2018 by Suhaan

[Rightarmfast]

2 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Did you anywhere find a hint that Im saying he bowled because of his short height??

Please read my post again and find an ' if ' over there. Cheers!

[Khota]

7 hours ago, rkt.india said:

i am talking from bio-mechanics perspective.  There is no better person to tell you about that than Ian Pont and i had posted that before too in the Nagarkot thread when people were questioning about his height.  if you check how low the fastest of the bowlers go to generate pace. i had posted that pic of Brett Lee and Donald in Nagarkoti thread with quotes from Ian Pont about height and pace and bounce. You need fast twitch fibers to generate pace short or tall.  The bowlers who have those can bowl fast regardless of what their biomechanics are.  I had the posted the picture of Starc in this thread recently that his biomchanics are not perfect as he bowled with a bent front foot but he still bowls fast.  

You do need twitch fibre but assuming genetically you do have twich fibre who will have more of it? A tall guy or a short guy?

 

Quit giving Bret and Sohaib as an example. They both chucked.

[Khota]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

i am talking from bio-mechanics perspective.  There is no better person to tell you about that than Ian Pont and i had posted that before too in the Nagarkot thread when people were questioning about his height.  if you check how low the fastest of the bowlers go to generate pace. i had posted that pic of Brett Lee and Donald in Nagarkoti thread with quotes from Ian Pont about height and pace and bounce. You need fast twitch fibers to generate pace short or tall.  The bowlers who have those can bowl fast regardless of what their biomechanics are.  I had the posted the picture of Starc in this thread recently that his biomchanics are not perfect as he bowled with a bent front foot but he still bowls fast.  

I dont think Ian Pont ever would imply that. If you are tall your arms are longer. This means you have a longer wing span. If your wing span is large you generate more velocity for the same effort. To generate the same velocity as a short bowler you now have to put less effort so that translate to longer life for tall bowler.

It is not a coincidence that most of the fast bowlers are tall. it is bio mechanics because fast bowling is easier for tall players.

I will let a physics major answer the question why a longer wing span helps you generate more velocity. If not I will do that for you.

[Khota]

9 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Height has nothing to do with pace. 

Wrong.

[MCcricket]

Generally seen guys around 6'  to 6'2" tend to be best at bowling fast, as they seem tall enough to get bounce but also not too tall not to get some reverse n can bowl fuller lengths as well with ease also their body holds up better then taller bowlers.

 

Yes the chances of being a succesfull bowler at international level becomes greater if you have pace n bounce both that comes with height n a good action , but shorter bowlers have also shown they can be good, Steyn ,Shami, Waqar, Akhtar, Vass.

For a taller bowler the ball has to travel a greater distance but gets awkward on sporting tracks, for shorter bowlers its easier to target stumps, bowl fuller get more swing n reverse, height is not a factor for bowling fast but it can make a bowler more potent in most cases ,but fast twitch fibers, core, mechanics, a taller bowler often has problem with rhythm n keeping his action n feet in check n a shorter bowler is more athletic n fitter generally, but if a shorter bowler has genuine pace, can get swing, seam, reverse, bowls proper legths he can be devastating as well, Malcolm Marshall wasnt tall either around Bhuvis height .

For me if Nagarkotti n Mavi who already are around 5 8" n 5 9" n can get 2 or 3 inch taller can bowl around 140 to 155 k, target stumos, can seam the ball n reverse when needed n have a decent short ball they can be world class bowlers no doubt.

Edited March 16, 2018 by MCcricket

[Rightarmfast]

There's a reason why Sachin Tendulkar, who initially wanted to be a genuine fast bowler, could never become a fast bowler. I say this because the initial statement was ' height has nothing to do with pace'! This is without logic. 

Even giving examples of Shoaib, Waqar, Steyn is not correct because they are shorter as compared to bowlers like Donald ( 6'5'), Walsh, Ambrose etc who were giants. Its not that Waqar is a short guy, he is still above 5'10'. 

 

The reason why some giant bowlers ( I mean with height above 6'4') do not bowl excessive pace is because of biomechanics. They do not have the same balance and synchronization that others will have. As you grow taller and taller, getting the movements synchronised with the body becomes tougher. 

[Khota]

here is the physics behind it. 

tall guys have longer arms and hence longer wing span.

Assume the shoulder is the fulcrum.

Further away from the fulcrum you will generrate more velocity.

mathematically this can be explained as follows:

 

V = 2*pi*r*f

 

If the angular velocity genearted by a tall and short bowler with their arms is the same the "r" for tall bowler is more. 

This translates to a higherspeed generated by a tall bowler.

 

 

To explain it further look at the charkha of mahatma Gandhi.

Let the rotational velocity represents the arm velocity of bowler.

Further you go away from the centre of the wheel faster you are travelling.

Similarly someone with long arms delivers a ball much faster for the same arm velocity.

 

Anyone who denies this does not know bio mechanics,

Edited March 16, 2018 by Khota

[MCcricket]

52 minutes ago, Khota said:

here is the physics behind it. 

tall guys have longer arms and hence longer wing span.

Assume the shoulder is the fulcrum.

Further away from the fulcrum you will generrate more velocity.

mathematically this can be explained as follows:

 

V = 2*pi*r*f

 

If the angular velocity genearted by a tall and short bowler with their arms is the same the "r" for tall bowler is more. 

This translates to a higherspeed generated by a tall bowler.

 

 

To explain it further look at the charkha of mahatma Gandhi.

Let the rotational velocity represents the arm velocity of bowler.

Further you go away from the centre of the wheel faster you are travelling.

Similarly someone with long arms delivers a ball much faster for the same arm velocity.

 

Anyone who denies this does not know bio mechanics,

The word is efficiency, the fastest sprinter in the world is not the tallest one on the planet, the bigger the person is the slower he gets owing to the physicality, there r few very few exceptions, like Mohd Ali who was a heavy weight but moved like a Middle weight, things r not as simple as u wanna prove scientifically, a lot of things come into the picture, i can bet on the fact that comparatively a shorter person might be able to finish one full shoulder rotation quicker owing to these factors, less mass, less effort at rotating thru a smaller arc.

[express bowling]

Saini bowling 137 k to  145 k on the third morning and bowling consistently in the channel.

 

Fastest balls I have seen  

145 k

144 k

143 k 

142 k

142 k

142 k

142 k

141 k

141 k

Edited March 16, 2018 by express bowling

[Khota]

5 hours ago, MCcricket said:

The word is efficiency, the fastest sprinter in the world is not the tallest one on the planet, the bigger the person is the slower he gets owing to the physicality, there r few very few exceptions, like Mohd Ali who was a heavy weight but moved like a Middle weight, things r not as simple as u wanna prove scientifically, a lot of things come into the picture, i can bet on the fact that comparatively a shorter person might be able to finish one full shoulder rotation quicker owing to these factors, less mass, less effort at rotating thru a smaller arc.

Efficiency is important but my basis was that both tall and short guy generate the same arm speed than tall bowler will deliver the ball faster. Now if the short bowler has faster arm speed than all bets are off. He may very well be faster in that case. The underline assumption is both have the same arm speed the tall bowler will be faster.

Think in terms of lever action and fulcrums.

 

From: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Mechanics/lever.html

 

 

This is another close enogh example. If both Fr = Fe that is the force applied to the ball by both the short and tall bowler is the same and the shoulder is the fulcrum the advantage the tall bowler will have is will be based on the arm length.

 

It is lot more complex than that in reality. There are multiple lever actions being applied at the time of delivery. There is a lever action along the hip and then the shoulder. In both cases the tall bowler has a mechanical advantage.

 

Now sprinting is total different thing. If you are running a 100 meter dash you really have to be big and muscular. You really need those muscles to propel you. If you are a distance runner you dont need those muscles as much as the advantage comes from long legs.

 

That is why the 100m, 200m dash runners are built different than a marathon runner. Totally different sport and actions. That is why it is so difficult for someone who can win 100m/200m to win 1000m or marathon. Two totally different requirements.

 

You can also look at the bowling action as @Vilander refres to as a sling action. Longer the sling faster the ball.

So @Rightarmfast underline assumptions are correct that height gives a huge mechanical advantage.

 

Usain Bolt is almost 6'5" and Carl Lewis my favorite athlete was also north of 6'.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Khota

[the don]

95  3 mph from Wahab riaz .

Haven't seen that sort of pace in the Uae in a long long time . Fastest bowler in the world at 30 plus . What a supreme athlete .

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Khota said:

Efficiency is important but my basis was that both tall and short guy generate the same arm speed than tall bowler will deliver the ball faster. Now if the short bowler has faster arm speed than all bets are off. He may very well be faster in that case. The underline assumption is both have the same arm speed the tall bowler will be faster.

Think in terms of lever action and fulcrums.

 

From: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Mechanics/lever.html

 

 

This is another close enogh example. If both Fr = Fe that is the force applied to the ball by both the short and tall bowler is the same and the shoulder is the fulcrum the advantage the tall bowler will have is will be based on the arm length.

 

It is lot more complex than that in reality. There are multiple lever actions being applied at the time of delivery. There is a lever action along the hip and then the shoulder. In both cases the tall bowler has a mechanical advantage.

 

Now sprinting is total different thing. If you are running a 100 meter dash you really have to be big and muscular. You really need those muscles to propel you. If you are a distance runner you dont need those muscles as much as the advantage comes from long legs.

 

That is why the 100m, 200m dash runners are built different than a marathon runner. Totally different sport and actions. That is why it is so difficult for someone who can win 100m/200m to win 1000m or marathon. Two totally different requirements.

 

You can also look at the bowling action as @Vilander refres to as a sling action. Longer the sling faster the ball.

So @Rightarmfast underline assumptions are correct that height gives a huge mechanical advantage.

 

Usain Bolt is almost 6'5" and Carl Lewis my favorite athlete was also north of 6'.

this is a good post. 

 

This will be a bit of overanalysis, but it will be interesting to look at why there is this perception that taller bolwers are not fast with lesser effort than shorter ones, may be its because of sampling and incidental. Imagine a walsh or mcgrath or similar tall bowlers many were medium pace, imagine some one like tremlet or the holder probably was very muscular but not built like lean wirey fastbowler like Steyn starc etc not motivated enough and did not generate pace. I remember harmison and flintoff Gillespie even Ishant could easily up their pace with effort balls.

 

May be it will be interesting to note if taller bowlers had net faster fast balls than their stock balls, but this data will be highly subjective and might not be available.

[vishalvirsingh]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

this is a good post. 

 

This will be a bit of overanalysis, but it will be interesting to look at why there is this perception that taller bolwers are not fast with lesser effort than shorter ones, may be its because of sampling and incidental. Imagine a walsh or mcgrath or similar tall bowlers many were medium pace, imagine some one like tremlet or the holder probably was very muscular but not built like lean wirey fastbowler like Steyn starc etc not motivated enough and did not generate pace. I remember harmison and flintoff Gillespie even Ishant could easily up their pace with effort balls.

 

May be it will be interesting to note if taller bowlers had net faster fast balls than their stock balls, but this data will be highly subjective and might not be available.

even Srinath could generate truly fast speeds due to his tall height ..he had fast action and was tall thats why i guess he did ball till 150k..it is definitely true that height helps  a lot but it depends on multiple other factors as 

 

Run UP

Action

Shoulder Strength

and few more reasons...so u cant just fight it out on just height.